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MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
Depends on what you want to do with the rules.
If you want to use your existing Warhammer armie, then Mantic probably is best.
I have hear good things about Hordes of the Things, but have never played it.
Leviathan is good, and the rulebook is fairly inexpensive (5 GBP at Scotia/Grendel).
Chronascope... I know people that really like it, but it never really excited me.
Fantasy Warlord, by the long departed Folio Works was a lot of fun. (Finding it... may be hard.)
Fantasy Warriors - by the equally extinct Grenadier Miniatures is still available as a free download. (Played it way, way back when... and don't remember anything about it.)
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Oh, but they still don't show a model cap.. so.. that's a little confusing to me.. unit caps still might be based on scenarios.. so I dunno.. if not then this is more confusing than I care to mess with.
All this focus on the lack of points and the name changes. But even with points values and awesome names, it still seems like this would be a pretty bad game.
Even assuming you had a way to pick roughly even forces for a pickup game, and the background stuff was awesome, does anyone think they would like playing this game?
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Yeah, we seen them earlier. They tell you what units you can take, but no mention of how many models in each unit. You could have two units of Chaos Warriors, and each unit could contain 700,000 Chaos Warriors.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
This pretty much says it all. In order to make it playable, house rules are required.
I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
TheAuldGrump wrote: But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
The Auld Grump
I still have my copies of that and the first edition Battlesystem.
Albino Squirrel wrote: All this focus on the lack of points and the name changes. But even with points values and awesome names, it still seems like this would be a pretty bad game.
Even assuming you had a way to pick roughly even forces for a pickup game, and the background stuff was awesome, does anyone think they would like playing this game?
Since the whole thing isn't out and we don't know if the 4 pages of rules are the complete rulebook or just the starter pamphlet.. I don't know. Anyone else claiming they do know or that they won't like it has a bit of Green Eggs and Ham. Admittedly, I have hated most of GWs latest (2 years or so) releases and decisions, but this seems different enough to at least have a look.. even if that look is from 50 paces..
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
I don't see where I was "putting words into your mouth".
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
A result of the paradoxical condemnation of GW's rule writing ability and a fevered insistence to adhere to them as much as possible.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
Backtracking up the Egyptian river, no?
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it.
We stopped playing straight 8E within a couple months
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Yeah, we seen them earlier. They tell you what units you can take, but no mention of how many models in each unit. You could have two units of Chaos Warriors, and each unit could contain 700,000 Chaos Warriors.
I mentioned it already but scenarios might place a hard cap on any unit.. or otherwise modify what is being brought. There are 15mm systems (that do tournaments too) that don't have points and are scenario drive.. It's a bit overwhelming how narrow-minded most of the immediate responses have been to this without more info or acknowledging that this isn't a new concept and has successfully been done before. From what we've seen does it look like it's on that path.. no.. but until all the cards are on the table it is foolish to make the brash knee-jerk condemnations we're seeing. That said, man I would LOVE to play poker with some of the guys here..
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Guys.
Some new information.
Please stop all the wild speculation.
If all needs to stop now.
Please.
Thank you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 21:06:12
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
The battalions appear to just be the AoS box contents. I don't see anything listed that isn't in the box. So it's just a way to use the two armies as a cohesive force with added benefits. The warscrolls for the units themselves still don't put a limit on the number of models in the unit. So for the Stormcast Eternals battalion I could field the 2 Liberator squads that come in AoS that consist of 5 models each or expand those same units to be 20 models each. Same thing with the Bloodreavers in the Goretide battalion.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
Backtracking up the Egyptian river, no?
No.. I never said anything about model counts.. OMG.. it's like I'm surrounded by argumentative highschoolers..
Modifications to Hail Caesar (which is a great game) to add fantasy elements, along with several army lists that will seem familiar to Warhammer players.
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
Ok, so my respect for you just quadrupled.
I -loved- that game! Other people? Not so much, but I'd kill to find folks who would play it. Still have my books! (Battlesystem AND AD&D 2nd).
I wonder if a version could be cobbled together using my GW figs. LOL.
Either way - being two days away, I am definitely interested in trying out AoS to see if it plays better than it reads.
"Wheels within wheels, in a spiral array, a pattern so grand and complex.
Time after time we lose sight of the way, our causes can't see their effects."
The models aren't even that great since they are a wacky scale. Sure if you want an entire true-scale marine army wearing armor that doesn't look like power armor, and having arms in not-bolter poses.. then by all means by this and enjoy the 3 different poses. They remind me of the admech robots... trying so hard to be cool models but end up being childish toys.
I was considering buying the wings until I saw how off the scale is. It's as if GW doesn't even want people buying fantasy models to use in 40k. How many more failures can AoS give us?
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
RacerX wrote: Just please everyone.
It can stop now...
The Wild Speculation I mean.
Needs to cease now.
No point anymore.
Some info was presented and it all needs to just stop.
Ok?
Thanks
Uh.. Racer someone pointed out to me that they had already seen the stuff I was pointing out and were still arguing anyway.. It's like trying to put out an oil fire with water.. Just let the sucker burn..
Also text from mikhaila, they're serious about the no points thing:
Spoiler:
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
It's so bad, I just can't stop watching. Wow...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 21:10:23
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
Ok, so my respect for you just quadrupled.
I -loved- that game! Other people? Not so much, but I'd kill to find folks who would play it. Still have my books! (Battlesystem AND AD&D 2nd).
I wonder if a version could be cobbled together using my GW figs. LOL.
Either way - being two days away, I am definitely interested in trying out AoS to see if it plays better than it reads.
The beautiful thing about Battlesystem for AD&D 2E was the fact that it was specifically designed to allow you to insert anything you could statblock as a creature or humanoid in the RPG into a unit in Battlesystem. so yeah, everything in Warhammer could easily have a 2E statblock created and then ported to Battlesystem. I ran a 2E campaign into the late 90s where we would pull out Battlesystem for the huge battles where one fig in the unit was equivalent to 10 monsters.
Renegades - 
