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Mymearan wrote:
It wasn't selling "not as much", from what we've heard, it basically wasn't selling at all compared to 40k. It was radical reboot or nothing.

No. No, it wasn't. It was only "radical reboot or nothing" because that's what GW up and decided to do, since the company doesn't do market research. They could have figured out what was wrong with Fantasy and fixed it if they wanted to.

What they've done here is near insanity, an overly drastic solution to the problem (which they caused in the first place, but they don't know that), which is most likely going to fail and cost GW even more money in the end.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
the different color schemes look good...
i like it, especially the teal Celestial Vindicators...

Yes, me too. They appear in one of the full-page pictures in WD75 and I am looking forward to painting one.

I'm liking the "Anvil of Heldenhammer" and the one in the middle of the top three.

Isn't it "Anvils Of The Heldenhammer" which struck me as a bit odd.

migooo wrote:
It certainly can be thought of that way and if you want to play I certainly won't stop you.

Fantasy had a rich dynamic system not only "charts" but the way the game came out on the board, okay fine blocks were sometimes hard to move hence movement trays. Magic now is basically a gun or ranged weapon or maybe a buff. Before a spell could make or break a round and some races were dependant on this now it seems that magic will just be a shooting attack.

Those characteristics were important they defined a wood elf from a bloodletter it was like a little story in itself. It made the figures meaningful now they aren't so much. So if you were never a fan of them I can't really explain. Just don't complain when 40k gets the same treatment and it certainly will.


Maybe I'm old and bitter but it's too far from the original

The background is now some kind of bad fanfiction.net entry and yeah background is a huge part of a games narrative. All those custom armies all those blogs including my Sewer pirate skaven are just gone

I'm a larger fan of the Rock Paper Scissors that PP uses.

I think this is a bit of sensationalist thinking. The point of war-scrolls (as far as I have seen) is so that each unit has their special rules conveniently placed in a single spot for easier reference. Age of Sigmar doesn't look to be a perfect game (I liked block movement, and no points is something else) but it does look like its easier and faster to play. With Warhammer previously and 40k now if you don't have your special rules memorized you have to do a lot of flipping through your rulebook to even play. This isn't a fun way to play a game for new players. I know I have felt like I'm doing a research assignment then playing a game at times. The warscrolls give you everything in one spot, no looking.

I guess what I am saying is, yes, expert elves (or Aelfs) should be harder to hit than your average troop, so a special rule like that can be put on the warscroll. Look at Heroscape for an example of this, each unit only has wounds, attack, defense, and range, but each unit is unique because each unit has special rules. Of course each unit has points too...

Did anyone else notice that there will be a "Special Edition" AoS "Gates of Azyn" story book that is both direct only and twice the price. So now they want to sell us special editions storybooks that have 7 more pages but for 100% more? GW is really really making it hard for me to be a supporter of theirs anymore.

Whoops turns out I was wrong. It is not 15 dollars more for those extra seven pages it is 20 dollars more. So that is actually 133% more.



Edit for my bad math skills and to put this post in the proper thread.

migooo wrote:

Norsed wrote:

It certainly can be thought of that way and if you want to play I certainly won't stop you.

Fantasy had a rich dynamic system not only "charts" but the way the game came out on the board, okay fine blocks were sometimes hard to move hence movement trays. Magic now is basically a gun or ranged weapon or maybe a buff. Before a spell could make or break a round and some races were dependant on this now it seems that magic will just be a shooting attack.

Those characteristics were important they defined a wood elf from a bloodletter it was like a little story in itself. It made the figures meaningful now they aren't so much. So if you were never a fan of them I can't really explain. Just don't complain when 40k gets the same treatment and it certainly will.


Maybe I'm old and bitter but it's too far from the original

The background is now some kind of bad fanfiction.net entry and yeah background is a huge part of a games narrative. All those custom armies all those blogs including my Sewer pirate skaven are just gone

I'm a larger fan of the Rock Paper Scissors that PP uses.

But you still haven't actually pointed out to anything that so drastically reduces the depth of the gameplay here.

I won't be complaining when 40k gets the same treatment - because I still play Rogue Trader and I couldn't give a flying toss what corporate GW does with a game that hasn't been to my taste for decades.

It's not that I was never a fan of characteristics. I play oldhammer, where we still have seperate Willpower, Cool and Intelligence characteristics. But considering Warhammer hasn't had any connection to roleplaying scenarios for a long time I can see the advantage of removing chart reliance to make things faster on the tabletop.

Nothing is stopping you using blocks. In fact, as I pointed out above, perhaps you can explore all new and interesting formations to try out now that you have the flexibility to do so - I will certainly be making new movement trays to take advantage of that. True, the rank bonus is gone which means the game is no longer about steamrollers bashing into each other - but to my mind that's no big loss. Forming up still has a lot of advantages that I can see in AoS over fighting in a big cloud.

And all we've seen of the magic is the two basic spells every wizard has. Every wizard will have their own spells on their warscroll, so I can see a lot of interesting stuff coming there.

Yeah, the background is a bit naff. Destroying the old world really annoys me. But, guess what, nothing's stopping you from still using those custom armies and coming up with new backgrounds the way you want them to be.

Is Age of Sigmar perfect? No. But I can see GW trying something new. Free core rules and warscrolls available for everything means that as a referee I might actually be able to run proper refereed scenarios again in a current edition of Warhammer - something that was impossible with the individual army book setup. And I can see being able to build Tercios and operate lines of relief and all sorts of things. So I'm cautiously optimistic and can't wait to try it out.

Via Tabletopwelt.de - A new scenery piece (and a new ROB tile?)

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-12028-0-86513400-1435835983.jpg

The new scenery prices can be seen in the background of the contents images at the start of the thread. But that ROB section does look new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new scenery prices can be seen in the background of the contents images at the start of the thread. But that ROB section does look new.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Tabletopwelt.de - A new scenery piece (and a new ROB tile?)

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-12028-0-86513400-1435835983.jpg

Ok I love that artwork, literally angles and gods descending upon lightning.

Terrain looks sweet aswell.

I really like that gate terrain piece.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Tabletopwelt.de - A new scenery piece (and a new ROB tile?)

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-12028-0-86513400-1435835983.jpg

That new "Ophidian Archway" is just screaming "Dragonlance" to me.

I can get behind this. Those books were an integral part of my childhood.

Something I have been wondering about for a while is scale creep, and are the sigmarines really a lot bigger than everything else, or are the chaos guys also a lot bigger, and thus won't fit in with an existing army quite as well as we think?
The picture on the new arch terrain box is small, but I beleive it shows a sigmarine and a khorne guy, and they are of a very similar size.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Apologies if this picture has already been posted but here is the Khorne Lord and his pet "Snuggles" im all of their glory:



And this thing:

Really liking these two models, Im sure I can find something to do with them, I doubt il play AOS, I dont think they look that much like space marines either, totally different armour and weapons, but when you start reading the fluff it sounds more than a little similar, still the hate seems pretty over the top to me, but then again im about as casual as you get, the rules are the least of my concerns.

Dragonlance indeed (which was great), I really like the arch piece

I really hope the game turns out to be fun, still wont affect me buying the set though, might have to try and snag an extra 3 prosecutors as I am dead set on using 2 for a minotaur chaplain and captain, skyhammer annihilation force minotaur style, yes please.

The big Khorne guy with all the skulls creating holes in his skin and that it looks like they are flowing around his body gives me the creeps, honestly don't think I could stomach painting it without cringing.

Wow the Ophidian Arch looks awesome!

That Lord, wow

 unmercifulconker wrote:

Ok I love that artwork, literally angles and gods descending upon lightning.

Morning angles.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Tabletopwelt.de - A new scenery piece (and a new ROB tile?)

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-12028-0-86513400-1435835983.jpg

That new "Ophidian Archway" is just screaming "Dragonlance" to me.

I can get behind this. Those books were an integral part of my childhood.

You know if you make Snakemen again GW I might just be tempted to forgive you.

Norsed wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:

Ok I love that artwork, literally angles and gods descending upon lightning.

Morning angles.

CURSES!

 unmercifulconker wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Tabletopwelt.de - A new scenery piece (and a new ROB tile?)

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-12028-0-86513400-1435835983.jpg

Ok I love that artwork, literally angles and gods descending upon lightning.

Terrain looks sweet aswell.

I agree, that artwork is badass.

Norsed wrote:

migooo wrote:

Norsed wrote:

It certainly can be thought of that way and if you want to play I certainly won't stop you.

Fantasy had a rich dynamic system not only "charts" but the way the game came out on the board, okay fine blocks were sometimes hard to move hence movement trays. Magic now is basically a gun or ranged weapon or maybe a buff. Before a spell could make or break a round and some races were dependant on this now it seems that magic will just be a shooting attack.

Those characteristics were important they defined a wood elf from a bloodletter it was like a little story in itself. It made the figures meaningful now they aren't so much. So if you were never a fan of them I can't really explain. Just don't complain when 40k gets the same treatment and it certainly will.


Maybe I'm old and bitter but it's too far from the original

The background is now some kind of bad fanfiction.net entry and yeah background is a huge part of a games narrative. All those custom armies all those blogs including my Sewer pirate skaven are just gone

I'm a larger fan of the Rock Paper Scissors that PP uses.

But you still haven't actually pointed out to anything that so drastically reduces the depth of the gameplay here.

I won't be complaining when 40k gets the same treatment - because I still play Rogue Trader and I couldn't give a flying toss what corporate GW does with a game that hasn't been to my taste for decades.

It's not that I was never a fan of characteristics. I play oldhammer, where we still have seperate Willpower, Cool and Intelligence characteristics. But considering Warhammer hasn't had any connection to roleplaying scenarios for a long time I can see the advantage of removing chart reliance to make things faster on the tabletop.

Nothing is stopping you using blocks. In fact, as I pointed out above, perhaps you can explore all new and interesting formations to try out now that you have the flexibility to do so - I will certainly be making new movement trays to take advantage of that. True, the rank bonus is gone which means the game is no longer about steamrollers bashing into each other - but to my mind that's no big loss. Forming up still has a lot of advantages that I can see in AoS over fighting in a big cloud.

And all we've seen of the magic is the two basic spells every wizard has. Every wizard will have their own spells on their warscroll, so I can see a lot of interesting stuff coming there.

Yeah, the background is a bit naff. Destroying the old world really annoys me. But, guess what, nothing's stopping you from still using those custom armies and coming up with new backgrounds the way you want them to be.

Is Age of Sigmar perfect? No. But I can see GW trying something new. Free core rules and warscrolls available for everything means that as a referee I might actually be able to run proper refereed scenarios again in a current edition of Warhammer - something that was impossible with the individual army book setup. And I can see being able to build Tercios and operate lines of relief and all sorts of things. So I'm cautiously optimistic and can't wait to try it out.

Position and how a unit faced was essential AOS supposedly removes this.in one way I can see the upside but it feels like half a game.

I lost Chaos Dwarfs, I lost Squats I'm loosing sisters and now all of warhammer

How will poison work or plague spells? , again I play second so really I don't care if 40k gets sigmarized.in the beginning when I started to read the rules I thought okay cool but to change so much so fast is not for me.

Maybe it has the same amount of tactical options that old warhammer has but I just don't see it.

That Chaos Lord is beyond awesome, I'll be ebaying him for sure.

In fact there's loads about this release I'd love to love, I just can't endorse the halfassery of the rules, so no direct cash injection from me, unless things get patched further down the line at least.

 streamdragon wrote:
But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.

But that's a more adult sensibility, right? And even a lot of adults like more brightness and the concept of the "good guy." Meanwhile, you're trying to sell the game to kids.

This is something that I think some vet GW gamers have trouble accepting. GW games are for kids. We're playing kids' games. Maybe 40K is more adolescent in tone, but it's still sub-18. There's nothing wrong with enjoying kid stuff as your hobby, but I think you have to accept and own that, and with that comes some understanding when GW creates something that seems childish.

Along those lines, it's always perplexing to me how people can get bent out of shape about a single silly name or cartoony story when both Warhammer universes are so incredibly cheesy and over-the-top. It's a drop in an Olympic-sized pool.

Old enough to know the battle cry of "they are dumbing down the game" really means "I don't like change". When you young kids have a wife and kids, you won't have time for complex (and tedious) rules. And it's not like Warhammer rules were elegant or a great simulation. They were just clunky and familiar. Good riddance.

Now bring on the elves... or what ever they are called!

Iain.

I admit, when I found out this was real, my reaction was the same as most others here. After giving it some time to sink in though, I think I can see some positives.

First of all, the design isn't bad. The new miniatures are pretty cool, although rather OTT. But I kind of like that look.

Also, there are some good ides there. The multiple realms thing makes it more like D&D or Magic:The Gathering, in other words, more like a fantasy universe. Funny how this aspect almost gets it away from 40k as much as it brings it closer.

However, it seems to have been implemented poorly. The writing that we've seen so far is pretty cringeworthy.

As others have mentioned, they seem to be going for a typical good guys vs bad guys story, which takes away a lot of what made Warhammer so unique.

But what I hate the most is that this new setting comes at the expense of the old one. The Old World literally blew up. If these were additions to the old fluff, rather than replacements, maybe I could get behind it.

As it is the bad really outweighs the good for me. I'm afraid this probably won't help Fantasy in the long run. And I'm reluctant to buy the miniatures just to have them at the prices they are likely to be, especially if this does end up failing in 3 years time.

So, like so many other things coming out of GW, we have some really good ideas ruined by the heavy-handed way they are implemented.

In thread for simplicity.

streamdragon wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Point values aren't needed because of the scaling nature of the battle shock phase and not knowing what your opponent is going to field.

With sudden death victories of one model being alive on turn 6, hold a point on the table by turn 4, kill a powerful single model,or a decent sized unit of your choosing even one sided games are more fair. Especially if you DON'T have to tell your opponent what your objective is. That makes them think about unit placement and board control. That in itself forces tactical decision making. I'm excited, this may get me into fantasy..m

This post makes no sense. Absolute rubbish.

Scaling nature of the battle shock phase? It doesn't scale at all. It's very linear:

Did you lose 1 or more models?

No -> Do nothing
Yes -> (d6 + Dead models) - (Bravery + Models/10). That's not scaling. For every 10 models in your unit you (possibly) save 1 dude. *finger twirl* woohoo

No points needed? With Warscrolls having no limitations beyond "only 1" or "1 to your deployment zone", how do you even begin to make a balanced game? Oh wait, we don't need a balanced game because reasons and Sudden Death!

Except you clearly didn't read Sudden Death. Because your opponent DOES know what your choice was, because in a full half the options HE HAS TO PICK YOUR TARGET!

"You pick assassination? Cool, you have to kill my ubernaught hero back here. I've put him in the back corner, with my deployment zone being nothing but literal shoulder to shoulder dragons and a unit of 100 Warriors of Chaos. Good luck!"

"You pick blunt? Cool, you have to wipe out that unit of 100 Warriors of Chaose. Good luck!"

"You want to get to terrain in my deployment zone? Cool, you will have to kill a model to even take one step. Good luck!"

"Your dude just has to live six turns? Awesome, I'm already outnumbering you 20 to 1 or more, so... Good luck!"

Sudden death is not a balancing factor. Sudden death is a band-aid over a gaping wound of crap tier writing.

This really should be quoted for truth. To be quite honest it's not the modes that bother me - shoot space marines in fantasy why not my dwarves will still crush them - new wars scrolls - hell wrath of kings does that and I love that game - BUT no points and instead unlimited unit size or warscroll size is unbelievable stupid. If you wanted to go the wrath of kings route then you give limited to to squads and you say take X amount of squads in one type of battle - but this makes it idiotic. And the sudden death rules, while a step in the right direction, still allows you opponent to choose - what?!?!? So you want to kill me leader do you - here is my T7 7W dwarf lord with a 1+ save and a 4+ ward.

That brings me to an even scarier point though.... How the hell are they going to do dwarves? If everything is in warscrolls how in the hell do dwarves get runes. Sigh I am really worried about this nonsense.

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:There's been one good thing about this whole thing so far, it's made me go take a look at Kings of War...

THEY HAVE CHAOS DWARVES (or Abyssal Dwarves to use their lingo)

Gotta check it out I have heard good things! If you want recommendations I really do recommend wrath of kings - it's war machine skirmish without castor kill and really cool balancing objectives.

 gorgon wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.

But that's a more adult sensibility, right? And even a lot of adults like more brightness and the concept of the "good guy." Meanwhile, you're trying to sell the game to kids.

This is something that I think some vet GW gamers have trouble accepting. GW games are for kids. We're playing kids' games. Maybe 40K is more adolescent in tone, but it's still sub-18. There's nothing wrong with enjoying kid stuff as your hobby, but I think you have to accept and own that, and with that comes some understanding when GW creates something that seems childish.

Along those lines, it's always perplexing to me how people can get bent out of shape about a single silly name or cartoony story when both Warhammer universes are so incredibly cheesy and over-the-top. It's a drop in an Olympic-sized pool.

This is not a game for kids.

A successful kids game has structure, an understandable framework to play in. This is just simpler in concept but with no structure at all, I have no idea who it is for. Warmahordes is a better game for kids to get to grips with, despite its complexity found in unit synergies, because it is well defined and easy to follow.

New terrain piece looks tasty. I don't want Age of Sigmar at all but every time I see one of those beautiful boxes my nostalgia gland goes into overdrive... resist... it's crap... resist...

Chairman Aeon wrote:
Old enough to know the battle cry of "they are dumbing down the game" really means "I don't like change". When you young kids have a wife and kids, you won't have time for complex (and tedious) rules. And it's not like Warhammer rules were elegant or a great simulation. They were just clunky and familiar. Good riddance.

Now bring on the elves... or what ever they are called!

Iain.

I'm not saying change is wrong I'm saying that what they have done is too much. Refine, improve, and fix not throw everything away .

If you don't see it as dumbing down then okay fine.

Reading this makes me think I should try it but I can try the system without putting up with the lol Aelfs because we must have copyright