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 Delicate Swarm wrote:
"Games Workshop is in the business of selling toy soldiers to children." - Tom Kirby, Chairman of Games Workshop PLC

"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. " - Tom Kirby, Chairman of Games Workshop PLC


So it seems even Tom Kirby isn't too sure just who their customers actually are...

 quickfuze wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
GW lost me at $250 for the starter.

That's Australian

New Zealand and Australia are different countries.

 Bull0 wrote:
I can't believe how po-faced people are being about the silly rules! Just ignore them! Everybody will after the first game or two anyway when the novelty wears off.

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.

Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

For those frustrated with GW right now, there are so many amazing games out there that it would be a shame to waste time and effort on a game you're only begrudgingly getting into.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
What's that famous quote? I don't mind the despair, it's the hope I can't stand.

People have been sailing on the warhammer ship, that ship hit an iceberg and sunk, the survivors are clinging on to driftwood for dear life, hoping to be rescued.

The GW rescue ship sails on past, but people still cling on to hope. (th edition is the illusion, a dying man's dream.

There is nothing from GW's behaviour these past years to suggest they'll ever change. Kirby's sitting in his bunker, waiting for that Tiger battalion to save the day and drive away the rival companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok, so warhammer is dead, buried and gone. This new crap isn't warhammer, and to answer the above question, if these rules were not free, no way in hell would I pay for this utter turd, it feels like no effort was made and I'm getting a giant middle finger from gw for my 25 years of loyalty.

I will carry on with 8th and try kow, I will also not spend another penny on gw "fantasy" and I am urging others to do the same in my local area.

Welcome aboard the good ship KOW. Right now, I'd quite happily pay Mantic double the price for their stuff.

I think your just being a little childish you don't like it move on. I could care less from once the models play so long as they play. My ogres are still in it so, so am I plus I love nurgle/khorne so I am good.
And like I said you hate it move on to post in a topic every what....5th post for the last 7 hours saying you hate it gets a bit old.

I agree, I said this earlier, but in my defence, I've had 20 + years of good memories. Hard to let go...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Anyone have their hands on the new models and have any advice about assembling or painting them? I want to make sure I don't screw something up in the process (typically there's little things you can do to make things easier, sub-assemblies, etc.)

I think they're snap fit and somebody said there's barely a trace of mould lines.

I feel like i was a bit agressive so i do say sorry for that. I just dont get it tho, it is not like devorce you do not lose halfyour stuff or pay them out. Sell your core keep your show pieces find a different game transfer some models or sell them off and get some money for a new hobby. Nothing buisnesse related lasts forever thing chang die out and are remade. Look at thundercats, terminator, transformers ect.

What it was will never be again you change and so to does the auidance. Of course they dumbed down the rules they have too. The player base is getting younger and need instant profit. If they walk in see a book they walk out, hell the age of books are dyeing out and going digatal i had to fight with visa for twenty minutes to get paper statement.

We get older and the market need to change with the times. Oldder we get less we spend on hobbies alot to do with the finical crap that just hit world wide and we geting over. Kids need to pick this hobby up and they want things easyer and fun NOW not to read or do math. I still miss the feeling of getting the new hard cover edition the new novel or codex and knowing i had a good read ahead pf me, hell even loved the new book amell. Now it all hey you want to read get your tablet want to talk get your text phone.

No need to apologise.

For the record, I'll make one thing clear: I think AOS is a steaming pile of gak, and I'd go back in time and buy a return ticket for the Titanic, before I ever bought AOS.

But I hope I'm not putting people off buying it. If you love it, and want to buy it, good luck to you. Have fun with it. I've never been one for spoiling other people's mini wargaming fun, and I hope they get a lot of good times out of AOs, if that's your thing.

overtyrant wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Mantic could really profit from this AOS fiasco. But to do so, they'll have to invest a lot in the quality of their models. Right now, I have no interest of buying any of Mantic models, except for their undead.

I don't see how me playing their games with GW mini help them at the end of the day, cause until they manage to be almost on par with GW quality wise, most people wont buy them

New stuff coming from the last KS is top notch, the Abyssals may be a marmite case (like AoS) though. They really do improve from KS to KS, which of course because of those funds they can expand and do things they wouldn't previously be able to do.

Well, iirc, they still use restic, and the level of detail you can get with it is not as good as with HIps.

BTW, where can I see the minis from the last KS

 MWHistorian wrote:
For those frustrated with GW right now, there are so many amazing games out there that it would be a shame to waste time and effort on a game you're only begrudgingly getting into.

One step ahead of you. I'm getting into KOW, but Judge Dredd miniature game is absolutely BLOODY Brilliant!

Cheap to buy, quick to play, good rules. Great game. I recommend it for people looking for a good sci-fi skirmish game.

I think a lot of people are over-estimating the fact that money not spent on WHFB / AOS will go straight to Mantic. From the pictures of todays Mantic Clash Of King's regionals a lot of the armies are non Mantic (which they approve), so if they are not getting the money for the miniatures, and the rules are free where is the money coming from?

Spoilered pics of GW/ other companies minis at the event:



I have followed Mantic from the start, I cannot remember the last big model release for KOW. Obviously that will change with 2nd Edition, but will anyone buy them? It seems to me that a lot of disgruntled WHFB already have all the minis they will ever need for all the armies that they will ever want. They may buy a rulebook, so £30 odd goes to Mantic. After that?

Kow for our group!!

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

I think a lot of people are over-estimating the fact that money not spent on WHFB / AOS will go straight to Mantic. From the pictures of todays Mantic Clash Of King's regionals a lot of the armies are non Mantic (which they approve), so if they are not getting the money for the miniatures, and the rules are free where is the money coming from?

Spoilered pics of GW/ other companies minis at the event:

Spoiler:

GW 3rd edition Dark Elves vs Goblins (company unknown/ GW)




WHFB Skaven vs Mantic Orcs

I have followed Mantic from the start, I cannot remember the last big model release for KOW. Obviously that will change with 2nd Edition, but will anyone buy them? It seems to me that a lot of disgruntled WHFB already have all the minis they will ever need for all the armies that they will ever want. They may buy a rulebook, so £30 odd goes to Mantic. After that?

yep, couldn't said it any better. Unless Mantic release incredible new minis, people will only use the GW mini to play their game, and they won't profit much from it. And at this point, they haven't shown that they are able to do so.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
What's that famous quote? I don't mind the despair, it's the hope I can't stand.

People have been sailing on the warhammer ship, that ship hit an iceberg and sunk, the survivors are clinging on to driftwood for dear life, hoping to be rescued.

The GW rescue ship sails on past, but people still cling on to hope. (th edition is the illusion, a dying man's dream.

There is nothing from GW's behaviour these past years to suggest they'll ever change. Kirby's sitting in his bunker, waiting for that Tiger battalion to save the day and drive away the rival companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok, so warhammer is dead, buried and gone. This new crap isn't warhammer, and to answer the above question, if these rules were not free, no way in hell would I pay for this utter turd, it feels like no effort was made and I'm getting a giant middle finger from gw for my 25 years of loyalty.

I will carry on with 8th and try kow, I will also not spend another penny on gw "fantasy" and I am urging others to do the same in my local area.

Welcome aboard the good ship KOW. Right now, I'd quite happily pay Mantic double the price for their stuff.

I think your just being a little childish you don't like it move on. I could care less from once the models play so long as they play. My ogres are still in it so, so am I plus I love nurgle/khorne so I am good.
And like I said you hate it move on to post in a topic every what....5th post for the last 7 hours saying you hate it gets a bit old.

I agree, I said this earlier, but in my defence, I've had 20 + years of good memories. Hard to let go...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Anyone have their hands on the new models and have any advice about assembling or painting them? I want to make sure I don't screw something up in the process (typically there's little things you can do to make things easier, sub-assemblies, etc.)

I think they're snap fit and somebody said there's barely a trace of mould lines.

I feel like i was a bit agressive so i do say sorry for that. I just dont get it tho, it is not like devorce you do not lose halfyour stuff or pay them out. Sell your core keep your show pieces find a different game transfer some models or sell them off and get some money for a new hobby. Nothing buisnesse related lasts forever thing chang die out and are remade. Look at thundercats, terminator, transformers ect.

What it was will never be again you change and so to does the auidance. Of course they dumbed down the rules they have too. The player base is getting younger and need instant profit. If they walk in see a book they walk out, hell the age of books are dyeing out and going digatal i had to fight with visa for twenty minutes to get paper statement.

We get older and the market need to change with the times. Oldder we get less we spend on hobbies alot to do with the finical crap that just hit world wide and we geting over. Kids need to pick this hobby up and they want things easyer and fun NOW not to read or do math. I still miss the feeling of getting the new hard cover edition the new novel or codex and knowing i had a good read ahead pf me, hell even loved the new book amell. Now it all hey you want to read get your tablet want to talk get your text phone.

No need to apologise.

For the record, I'll make one thing clear: I think AOS is a steaming pile of gak, and I'd go back in time and buy a return ticket for the Titanic, before I ever bought AOS.

But I hope I'm not putting people off buying it. If you love it, and want to buy it, good luck to you. Have fun with it. I've never been one for spoiling other people's mini wargaming fun, and I hope they get a lot of good times out of AOs, if that's your thing.

Heres is the thing tho mate, the rules are free you have the models. If you give the game a go even on your spare time you are really risking or losing nothing and giving them not a single dollar more. You see if things work FOR FREE !!!!! :d which is what won me over... and the fact the starter has khorne in it lol

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

I think a lot of people are over-estimating the fact that money not spent on WHFB / AOS will go straight to Mantic. From the pictures of todays Mantic Clash Of King's regionals a lot of the armies are non Mantic (which they approve), so if they are not getting the money for the miniatures, and the rules are free where is the money coming from?

Spoilered pics of GW/ other companies minis at the event:

Spoiler:

GW 3rd edition Dark Elves vs Goblins (company unknown/ GW)




WHFB Skaven vs Mantic Orcs

I have followed Mantic from the start, I cannot remember the last big model release for KOW. Obviously that will change with 2nd Edition, but will anyone buy them? It seems to me that a lot of disgruntled WHFB already have all the minis they will ever need for all the armies that they will ever want. They may buy a rulebook, so £30 odd goes to Mantic. After that?

yep, couldn't said it any better. Unless Mantic release incredible new minis, people will only use the GW mini to play their game, and they won't profit much from it. And at this point, they haven't shown that they are able to do so.

If I had to hazard a guess, it's only a matter of time.

Mantic now = GW about 20 years ago. While I'd agree that there's a lot of minis I'd not buy from Mantic, there's not really a lot of GW models from 20 years ago I'd buy over their modern equivalents either. I'm assuming, given time, Mantic will improve the tech and recruit or develop the talent to improve their quality. I suspect it won't take 20 years to catch up though, and in the mean time, I'm sure they're doing just fine churning out unit fillers, nobody needs a £1 GW skeleton for 4th rank, 2nd file, when a 30p Mantic one does just as well.

The "smart adults" could see the writing on the wall and sold off while the overall value of their minis was still high. Probably made money off my 40k/Fantasy lots because I was a patient buy low/sell high type (same with Warmachine now!). If the transition to 6E in 40k, and then the asinine 6E to 7E transition, are both any indicator, this isn't going to get tighter in game design, but looser and more RANDOM=FUN! style stuff. Now with 100% more armpit farts and charades.

Give it a go, by all means, if you got a standard lot of players and can house rule some sort of agreed upon list building means, but otherwise, the game is dead in competitive format. And I will argue that the latter is what keeps games afloat in the profitable sense. Meta chasers make money.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

I think a lot of people are over-estimating the fact that money not spent on WHFB / AOS will go straight to Mantic. From the pictures of todays Mantic Clash Of King's regionals a lot of the armies are non Mantic (which they approve), so if they are not getting the money for the miniatures, and the rules are free where is the money coming from?

Spoilered pics of GW/ other companies minis at the event:

Spoiler:

GW 3rd edition Dark Elves vs Goblins (company unknown/ GW)




WHFB Skaven vs Mantic Orcs

I have followed Mantic from the start, I cannot remember the last big model release for KOW. Obviously that will change with 2nd Edition, but will anyone buy them? It seems to me that a lot of disgruntled WHFB already have all the minis they will ever need for all the armies that they will ever want. They may buy a rulebook, so £30 odd goes to Mantic. After that?

The goblins are mantic figures too tho not their best plastic kit.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm sure they're doing just fine churning out unit fillers, nobody needs a £1 GW skeleton for 4th rank, 2nd file, when a 30p Mantic one does just as well.

This. Since my GW fall out, I've started to view my gaming minis as classy chits and I keep funds for the artistic ones that are lavished in intelligent detail (not lulz-skullz!) at larger scale for my painting funsies. You don't need a name, a backstory, and bonkers paint job for Skeleton #42.

 CURNOW wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Wow, I can't belive that they actually tought that this lame game will revive fantasy. Is there an intelligent person left in nottingham ? This is a farce. The core rules are bland and uninteresting in themselves, and then, you have these childish gimmicks, and no way to balance forces against each other.

This is so bad, that I actually think i'll even stop playing 40k, and give my money to a company who actually treat me like an adylt, and not a mentally disabled 12 years old.

Most adults act like adults and don't throw their toys out of the pram because something changes ...oh and they don't refer to themselves or others as " mentally disabled 12 year olds " .

So tha game has changed and gone in a direction you don't like then stop playing it simple ! . Gw don't owe you anything . So for all means give your money to another plastic toy soldier making company so you can feal more adult .

I'm sorry, but you must not spend a lot of time around other adults if this is what you truly think

Most people don't respond well to change at all, especially unasked-for and unwanted change.

If GW was just a company selling action figures the "GW don't owe you anything" meme would hold more ground. As long as they present their product as a game and they expect us to continually keep spending a lot of money on items necessary to play said game, then "they damn sure owe us something". It is a mutual investment. We invest in their product, and they invest in delivering a product we deem worthy of investing in. That is how a healthy relationship between a company and a customer should work.

Even though I would perhaps prefer to use different words I do perfectly understand where his "mentally disabled 12 year old" rhetoric comes from, as all these circus acts they apparently thought we'd think would be so super lolzorz to trigger special effects are nothing more than a humongous steaming pile of horse gack, IMHO as a customer.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm sure they're doing just fine churning out unit fillers, nobody needs a £1 GW skeleton for 4th rank, 2nd file, when a 30p Mantic one does just as well.

This. Since my GW fall out, I've started to view my gaming minis as classy chits and I keep funds for the artistic ones that are lavished in intelligent detail (not lulz-skullz!) at larger scale for my painting funsies. You don't need a name, a backstory, and bonkers paint job for Skeleton #42.

I went the opposite direction. After I left GW games, I started to look at gaming in a different light. I embrace what makes that game what it is and sink into the fluff and the minis. But I am no longer faithful to one game. I am polygamous with equal love to throw around.

Heres is the thing tho mate, the rules are free you have the models. If you give the game a go even on your spare time you are really risking or losing nothing and giving them not a single dollar more. You see if things work FOR FREE !!!!! :d which is what won me over... and the fact the starter has khorne in it lol

KoW is free as well, but unlike this its actually balanced, tactical (positioning, flanks and rear attacks matter), streamlined and the rules are playable! (no endless debates about rules interpretations or whats balanced)

I've waited for new Bretonnian rules for years... and this is what we get. Ugh.

 insaniak wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I can't believe how po-faced people are being about the silly rules! Just ignore them! Everybody will after the first game or two anyway when the novelty wears off.

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.
Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

I see what you're trying to do there but the comedy rules are in the legacy warscrolls, the new units don't have them. Yes, the expectation is that the legacy stuff will be superceded by new rules that better represent the factions of the new fluff in time, or else gradually phased out, so yes - it's not an issue that people will stop doing the silly voices etc before long.

That is the thing, Mantic have already regressed.

2010:

1st sprues: Renendra plastic Elves. Great sprues, the designs were not great though (IMO), some loved them. Plenty of options.

2nd Sprues: Renendra Skeletons/Ghouls/Zombies. Great. For many the go to Zombie sprues whether playing fantasy or sci-fi games. But the ghouls and zombies had greatly reduced variety compared to the skeletons.

3rd. Dwarfs. Rendra again. Goodish sprues, some merged details.

Thereafter came the Orcs, great detail fine variety. And then Mantic moved to China and here came the terrible, melted detail Goblin sprues.

Then: The original KS and The Basileans and multiple terrible sculpts (YMMV) in restic. Poor detailing, poor models and a general cluster that lost a lot of customers who had given Mantic their first, and only, chance.

Thereafter we have had the odd metal release. However, there is hope as Mantic's plastic production for Deadzone has seen improved plastic sprues from China.

Next up for KOW are these:

Will they win over GW exiles?

And again more unit fillers means less miniatures sold and less moey in the Mantic coffers.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Next up for KOW are these:

Spoiler:

.

Really...?


Oh dear.


I haven't been following Mantic releases, because I hadn't been sold on them so far. They had been nearly getting there... but that is a massive leap backwards.

 TBD wrote:

 CURNOW wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Wow, I can't belive that they actually tought that this lame game will revive fantasy. Is there an intelligent person left in nottingham ? This is a farce. The core rules are bland and uninteresting in themselves, and then, you have these childish gimmicks, and no way to balance forces against each other.

This is so bad, that I actually think i'll even stop playing 40k, and give my money to a company who actually treat me like an adylt, and not a mentally disabled 12 years old.

Most adults act like adults and don't throw their toys out of the pram because something changes ...oh and they don't refer to themselves or others as " mentally disabled 12 year olds " .

So tha game has changed and gone in a direction you don't like then stop playing it simple ! . Gw don't owe you anything . So for all means give your money to another plastic toy soldier making company so you can feal more adult .

I'm sorry, but you must not spend a lot of time around other adults if this is what you truly think

Most people don't respond well to change at all, especially unasked-for and unwanted change.

If GW was just a company selling action figures the "GW don't owe you anything" meme would hold more ground. As long as they present their product as a game and they expect us to continually keep spending a lot of money on items necessary to play said game, then "they damn sure owe us something". It is a mutual investment. We invest in their product, and they invest in delivering a product we deem worthy of investing in. That is how a healthy relationship between a company and a customer should work.

Even though I would perhaps prefer to use different words I do perfectly understand where his "mentally disabled 12 year old" rhetoric comes from, as all these circus acts they apparently thought we'd think would be so super lolzorz to trigger special effects are nothing more than a humongous steaming pile of horse gack, IMHO as a customer.

Thats the thing though, people weren't investing enough into the game and so GW owe you nothing, sure you may have invested a lot over the last however long you played but recent times very few people were, not enough to sustain a viable product (business 101). So one way or another WHFB was dead, no allegiance owed, people didn't buy enough to sustain it. So rather then ditch it altogether they instead used its nurgle ridden carcass to create something new, whether you like the new stuff or not is a personal choice. Whether this "new" thing is going to sell or not is yet to be seen. I, like many here, believe they need some way of building lists, do that and I think it will do ok especially if they continue to release fantastic models like the end times and AoS box. If they dont do that then I think it will founder.

Personally I am going to wait and see, from what i have seen of the new lore I am loving it but that will depend on how fleshed out they go with it, it will fail if they rely on models alone. The biggest thing for me is the list building, I am not worried about balance, you CANT balance a game with this many factions and still have it fun (40k is the most unbalanced game on the tabletop but its still fun) just give me a way to build armies out of new stuff and old and I will be happy.

Those look likje they'd fit better as daemonettes than bloodletters.

 insaniak wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Next up for KOW are these:

Spoiler:

.

Really...?


Oh dear.


I haven't been following Mantic releases, because I hadn't been sold on them so far. They had been nearly getting there... but that is a massive leap backwards.

Not for me, and I'm not saying that because of my AOS disappointment. I'd happily have those models on my side of the table.

I would give them 8/10 as a rating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Those look likje they'd fit better as daemonettes than bloodletters.

Nods head in agreement.

To me, and I have a TON of KoW stuff...

They are very good for rank and file troops. Great value for large blocks and even some warmachines in the back area of the table.

Anything requiring a Hero, notable unit, one-off pieces.... there's too many sources to list.

GW does have some excellent minis, even if their rules have been a bit garbage for awhile now.

 Fezza213 wrote:

Thats the thing though, people weren't investing enough into the game and so GW owe you nothing, sure you may have invested a lot over the last however long you played but recent times very few people were, not enough to sustain a viable product (business 101).

Yes, that will happen when you turn your product into something your existing customers no longer want.

GW had the choice of fixing WHFB to entice those lapsed customers back into the fold, or scrapping it and starting over with something else. They went for the latter. It's not at all surprising that this decision would upset those lapsed (and the remaining few) customers who would have preferred to have 'their' game back.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
That is the thing, Mantic have already regressed.

2010:

1st sprues: Renendra plastic Elves. Great sprues, the designs were not great though (IMO), some loved them. Plenty of options.

2nd Sprues: Renendra Skeletons/Ghouls/Zombies. Great. For many the go to Zombie sprues whether playing fantasy or sci-fi games. But the ghouls and zombies had greatly reduced variety compared to the skeletons.

3rd. Dwarfs. Rendra again. Goodish sprues, some merged details.

Thereafter came the Orcs, great detail fine variety. And then Mantic moved to China and here came the terrible, melted detail Goblin sprues.

Then: The original KS and The Basileans and multiple terrible sculpts (YMMV) in restic. Poor detailing, poor models and a general cluster that lost a lot of customers who had given Mantic their first, and only, chance.

Thereafter we have had the odd metal release. However, there is hope as Mantic's plastic production for Deadzone has seen improved plastic sprues from China.

Next up for KOW are these:

Spoiler:

Will they win over GW exiles?

And again more unit fillers means less miniatures sold and less moey in the Mantic coffers.

I love Mantic minis, especially the undead. I havev a fairly large purcahse planned, and then I'll d more as they plan to release models for the armies they support at the core rules (sans lizardmen and skaven).

 Fezza213 wrote:
Thats the thing though, people weren't investing enough into the game and so GW owe you nothing, sure you may have invested a lot over the last however long you played but recent times very few people were, not enough to sustain a viable product (business 101). So one way or another WHFB was dead, no allegiance owed, people didn't buy enough to sustain it. So rather then ditch it altogether they instead used its nurgle ridden carcass to create something new, whether you like the new stuff or not is a personal choice. Whether this "new" thing is going to sell or not is yet to be seen. I, like many here, believe they need some way of building lists, do that and I think it will do ok especially if they continue to release fantastic models like the end times and AoS box. If they dont do that then I think it will founder.

Personally I am going to wait and see, from what i have seen of the new lore I am loving it but that will depend on how fleshed out they go with it, it will fail if they rely on models alone. The biggest thing for me is the list building, I am not worried about balance, you CANT balance a game with this many factions and still have it fun (40k is the most unbalanced game on the tabletop but its still fun) just give me a way to build armies out of new stuff and old and I will be happy.

Yeah, I agree with your first part entirely.

GW still makes all models for the old game. If you like the old game, nothing stops you from playing it, but there weren't enough people spending money on it to sustain, so they had to try something new -- or eventually, they would have just stopped selling it anyhow. I mean, what store wants to devote shelf space to a product that doesn't move? It costs money to have boxes sitting there. And WHFB is usually near 40k, which in most stores has fantastic visibility.

From the perspective of a 40k player who is solidly into that game, Fantasy was not as appealing, and therefore would not have been a primary game, and there was zero chance I would have played Fantasy as a SECONDARY game, because the model requirements are way too high to be something to play very occasionally. Like, I collect and paint Infinity models, and I don't care that I might play one game every edition of the rules, because the army is tiny. But I'm not going to paint 200+ miniatures that are extremely repetitive (ranked up trays) to play twice a year. So from that perspective, AoS is more likely to have me play as a secondary/alternative/time filler game (if it's fun).

I think it would be GREAT to have a way to build lists. However, GW doesn't seem to want to do that (a conscious decision). The community, I'm certain, will have a points list pretty quickly.

Perhaps the real irony is that the community created points list will probably be more balanced than any points list that GW would have published as a first edition (or second... or third...).

 Bull0 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I can't believe how po-faced people are being about the silly rules! Just ignore them! Everybody will after the first game or two anyway when the novelty wears off.

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.
Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

I see what you're trying to do there but the comedy rules are in the legacy warscrolls, the new units don't have them. Yes, the expectation is that the legacy stuff will be superceded by new rules that better represent the factions of the new fluff in time, or else gradually phased out, so yes - it's not an issue that people will stop doing the silly voices etc before long.

So they just released these new rules not even one day ago and already the faith of many a WHF player's enjoyment of the game rests on the expectation that another set of replacement rules may or may not be provided to us at some point in the future...

@Xyxox: me too,but the majority of Undead are from 2010.

My all Mantic Undead army:



For me, in an ideal World both GW and Mantic will continue to prosper. But I am far more excited by AOS than any Mantic release. Why? I paint and model rather than game.

I like the simplicity of "the Avian Way" of specifying maximum Unit Size*,

(ToHit x ToWound)/Wounds=Unit Size

i.e.
DE Bleakswords would be (3x4)/1 = max 12 models/warscroll.
DE Darkshards would be (5x4)/1 = max 20 models/warscroll.
DE Dark Riders would be (5x4)/2 = max 10 models/warscroll.
Would make an excellent starting point.

However, as Save is as important as Wounds in order to survive, Save should be part of the equation.
And special rules aswell (rend, mortal wounds, darkshields, etc.), 9 Executioners are way better than 12 Bleakswords.

*Unit size is also more suited to AoS and the Warscrolls than a points value/model.