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2015/07/05 10:04:13
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Bottle wrote: Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you may not be right for sommmmmmmme~
Whatchutalkingbout Bottle? A tight, unambiguous and well-worded set balanced (or as balanced as possible) set of rules benefits everyone. There is literally no downside to such a thing.
Bottle wrote: From my experience if the game turns into a sludgefest you have too many models. Our first game was a right clusterfudge in the centre we gave up at the end of turn 3.
We played 50-80 models a side on a 2ft x 4ft board (2 realm of battle squares)
The second game we played 30-40 models a side on a 4ft x 4ft and this was perfect. Really fun game!
Agreed. We've been playing on a 4x6. We'd have really been stuck into a big scrum in the center on smaller.
You have a lot more movement in AOS. Turn 2 seems to always end in a melee or two somewhere. You need the room to maneuver.
Agreed! And I am glad you're having fun. How many models is your 80 wounds? I also found lots of terrain makes the game more fun. I would like to play with Mordhiem amounts of terrain if I can.
Speaking of terrain how a bout some house rules for that too? Like taking off the special crazy stuff and set the normal stuff like impassable, dangerous for swamps that compromises the movement?
We've played a couple of games now at home - high elves v chaos warriors with a few units a side, then a larger empire v chaos warriors game. Mine were the High Elves and Empire armies. Put some details below but I'm not good at writing battle reports so you'll have to excuse the rambling style if you read it! =)
Spoiler:
In the first game, we put the sea guard, swordmasters and mage from the starter box up against 10 warriors with shields, 15 marauders, and a chaos lord - this was an incredibly close fight that came down to 1 chaos warrior, but the special characters on both sides could probably have done more, it served more as a practice game.
The second game pitted an empire state droop detachment - empire general with great weapon, 20 swordsmen, 10 halberdiers, 10 greatswords, 10 handgunners, 10 archers, and 8 empire knights
against more of the same for Chaos - a chaos lord on manticore, an additional lord on foot, 10 warriors with 2 chaos hand weapons, 15 warriors with shields, 15 marauders.
Chaos Warriors were outnumbered so picked the Blunt sudden death objective, I nominated the Knights as the target. I deployed in a line with swordsmen in the middle, flanked either side by the halberds and greatswords, missile troops each end of the line, knights at the back to counterattack. Chaos deployed in blocks opposite, mostly in the middle. The Archers had the option to make a scout move because of their Huntsmen rule, which is nifty, but I kept them where they were.
In each battle round chaos got the first turn, consistently through the game, which was kind of dull. Close combat happened quickly. The chaos lord on manticore was a beast, chewed his way through most of the Knights before I had them fall back to try and survive. He was eventually brought down by the Greatswords, who are very effective - 2 attacks each, wound on 3s, and have rend -1. Swordsmen in the state troops detachment are also pretty good against weak stuff because you get several +1 to hit modifiers (1 for being close to another unit from the detachment, 1 from the general's command ability if you use it, and 1 for every 10 models in the unit above 20 (so +1 at 20, +2 at 30, and so on). This meant for most of the game they were hitting on 2s instead of 4s, which was pretty fun, but their low strength and lack of Rend meant that didn't generally translate into a lot of wounds against chaos warriors.
In the end the Chaos army was wiped out with a substantial chunk of the empire side still alive- most of the greatswords, swordsmen, the general and one cheeky-but-bruised knight. We agreed that all in all it wasn't a balanced battle but that it stayed interesting right through the game. The Knights were reduced to 1 model with 1 wound remaining so that sudden death victory was fairly attainable but it didn't quite pan out - falling back out of combats is fairly safe if you can charge another unit in to take over.
The game is fun if a bit light on depth, but it is just SO easy to get models on the table and play, which is awesome. I don't think it's quite as fun to choose warscrolls as it is to build an army list from a book, and I don't see how it will work competitively the way it is right now, but I will say it is great for just getting battles going and having fast and extremely violent battles once you're in there. My WFB armies have been sat in a figure case for a couple of years, and before that they'd only been used a couple of times.
In terms of rules, we basically followed the RAW I think, although we were limited by what we had in our collections and being a friendly game there wasn't much monkey business going into army selection, which is still a big problem for this rule set!
Measuring from the model sounds like it'd be a problem but generally we just hovered over and measured from the general area of the model, it didn't *feel* all that different to how it normally does.
None of our models had MFA issues though, I can see how it would become a problem if you had that going on.
TL,DR: it is fun and it is a great way to get games going quickly, for my serious mathhammer games I'm sticking with 40k but I think the AoS rules are basically OK.
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2015/07/05 10:39:52
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Bottle wrote: Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you may not be right for sommmmmmmme~
Whatchutalkingbout Bottle? A tight, unambiguous and well-worded set balanced (or as balanced as possible) set of rules benefits everyone. There is literally no downside to such a thing.
Agreed. If you want to make it silly or play scenarios, you can always homebrew stuff up. Balancing the game is much more difficult, especially if you don't have financial reasons to invest time and effort into it.
AoS is GW deciding that they actually aren't interested in making anything that resembles a game any more. They don't even attempt to get the dumbed-down 4 page core rules right. Why they even bothered to include stats for the models is beyond me - there's absolutely no reason for stats, if there's no balanced starting point. The only way to get an even game is to start with identical armies
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/05 10:46:40
2015/07/05 10:46:18
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Bottle wrote: From my experience if the game turns into a sludgefest you have too many models. Our first game was a right clusterfudge in the centre we gave up at the end of turn 3.
We played 50-80 models a side on a 2ft x 4ft board (2 realm of battle squares)
The second game we played 30-40 models a side on a 4ft x 4ft and this was perfect. Really fun game!
Agreed. We've been playing on a 4x6. We'd have really been stuck into a big scrum in the center on smaller.
You have a lot more movement in AOS. Turn 2 seems to always end in a melee or two somewhere. You need the room to maneuver.
Agreed! And I am glad you're having fun. How many models is your 80 wounds? I also found lots of terrain makes the game more fun. I would like to play with Mordhiem amounts of terrain if I can.
Speaking of terrain how a bout some house rules for that too? Like taking off the special crazy stuff and set the normal stuff like impassable, dangerous for swamps that compromises the movement?
Yeah sounds good! I also thought about terrain only being magical if you first roll a 6, and 1-5 it is mudane.
You have literal "Wizard Bunkers" now. Terrain pieces that give plus rolls to casting, making a failed cast basically impossible.
The scaling of walls is a fun and simple rule though. That worked well.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/07/05 11:07:52
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Bottle wrote: Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you may not be right for sommmmmmmme~
Whatchutalkingbout Bottle? A tight, unambiguous and well-worded set balanced (or as balanced as possible) set of rules benefits everyone. There is literally no downside to such a thing.
Well the downside is most games place limits of army structure to create a balanced system. The reason AoS is so explosively fun for me is all the great armies I can create that couldn't before.
I'm not a tournament player though, I'm not even much of a tactician. I place narrative and fun above balance. I can now go to my local GW and play the army I want without having to convince my opponent to play a weird scenario of my own cooking.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/07/05 11:11:20
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I'm still on the fence. I'm sure it could be a lot of fun. It will however require a less competitive mind-set. It's hard not to build an army to win. We all want to win. But one needs to hold back a bit. The same attitude is required for everyone to have fun in 40k or Warmachine. Building an OTT army doesn't make you a strategic genius. The combos are obvious! Winning with the weaker army however, is epic!
2015/07/05 11:12:52
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Can all those people claiming that the lack of points means that AoS is not a wargame, or even a game, please just stop.
I get that you don't like it. AoS isn't for everyone. And maybe it would have been better if they had put some sort of more obvious balancing mechanism in there to keep you happy. But that's not what I want to talk about here.
Many wargames work perfectly fine without points values or any enforced balancing mechanism thankyou very much. It doesn't make them any less of a wargame or a game.
And I don't just mean historical wargames either, before you jump in with that. The two most obvious examples are Reaper (the rulebook published by tabletop games in the eighties, not the miniatures manufacturer) and the first edition of Warhammer both lacked these things and both were very successful.
Granted, both of those were some time ago. And granted, a different gaming culture has developed since those days. But that does not alter the fact that many people have quite happily been playing wargames of any kind without some sort of imposed balancing mechanism (that likely wouldn't produce 'balanced' games anyway), and claiming that lacking one makes AoS any less of a wargame for it is just ignorant.
Again, I get that many of you don't like it. Thats fair enough, it's not obviously designed to appeal to you. Although I would seriously recommend giving it a try if you have the chance, it's not like it costs you anything and you never know. Some people who were very violently opposed to the idea now rather like the game.
And those of you who have read the stuff about the silly rules about moustaches and the like (which are kind of annoying) and have been put off from even looking at it because of it:
Yes they are a bit annoying.
No, you don't have to do them to play the game, they are voluntary and give you a little bonus if you do them.
No, there aren't many of them. Generally one per faction, and usually on a special character you probably won't even play with anyway - except for the orcs who can charge 2 extra inches if you WAAAAGH.
If you don't like doing it, don't do them, it won't really affect you much. And if your opponent wants to look like a tit, well different strokes for different folks.
I can see the one where you have to insult someone resulting in a few... altercations though. Won't bother me, but somewhere, somehow that gak is going to go very wrong.
2015/07/05 11:13:51
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
@mikhaila: I appreciate your response, I was afraid for a minute that my post would start an argument and was wondering if I should even bother with it at first. I understand where you're coming from better than I did before, though.
I still disagree with people who are now trying to claim Age of Sigmar is a party game or that it's obviously not meant to be taken seriously, because that's not how it's being presented by GW at all. We have some of the best quality artwork GW has ever put out, models that GW claim are the best quality they have ever produced, a trailer/model showcase with epic displays and an epic soundtrack to go along with it, some really nice, new terrain for the game that is likewise probably some of the best they've ever produced...GW isn't trying to sell this as a goofy party game. If I didn't know any better and I bought into this after playing a demo game, only to start discovering the stupid clown antics and gak in the free rules later when I got home, I'd be furious and promptly cancel my pre-order, demanding my money back. If I want a silly "party game" experience I already have that with other, much cheaper games that were made for it, like Munchkin or Cards Against Humanity. But that's not what I bought into GW games for, that's not what people who bought into WHF previously wanted, and if this is just how things are going to be then I guess it's time for me to spend money elsewhere. 40k has already been moving to something like this anyway and I imagine it's only a matter of time now. I won't be buying new models when that comes to pass and will adapt old rules if I feel the need to keep playing the game at that point.
Most likely though I see myself selling everything and just moving on. Never would have thought of it before, but I don't see myself having any enthusiasm to finish my Tau or finish all three flavors of Eldar I have lying around when the rules start giving my hammerheads bonuses to hit for slapping my opponent with a fish or showing up to the game wearing bondage gear to get re-rolls to hit and wound with wyches.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
2015/07/05 11:25:36
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Well I guess all that spiffy marketing is being done for the age of sigmar box set (which features scenarios with predefined armies, so is as balanced as most games) and the game moving forward, which will doubtless feature new books, units, armies. Yes, if you treat the marketing as being for the release of the legacy warscrolls, and the legacy warscrolls then feature the odd silly rule and have no good balance mechanic, you can moan but for god's sake, talk about missing the point.
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2015/07/05 11:26:43
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sidstyler wrote: when the rules start giving my hammerheads bonuses to hit for slapping my opponent with a fish or showing up to the game wearing bondage gear to get re-rolls to hit and wound with wyches.
I loled.
WM has OP combos like any game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/05 11:29:57
2015/07/05 11:34:38
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sidstyler wrote: We have some of the best quality artwork GW has ever put out, models that GW claim are the best quality they have ever produced, a trailer/model showcase with epic displays and an epic soundtrack to go along with it, some really nice, new terrain for the game that is likewise probably some of the best they've ever produced...GW isn't trying to sell this as a goofy party game.
These things are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of companies maintain high production values on products that could be considered casual within their niche.
2015/07/05 11:35:03
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
It's weird how dakkadakka, which is supposed to be populated by old timers, is so hung up on balance and competitive play. I think video games did this to us. When I first got into the hobby in the mid 90's we just wanted to manoeuvre cool armies (and tanks!) around and destroy stuff. How did it become a competitive sport?
2015/07/05 11:38:01
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Kavish wrote: It's weird how dakkadakka, which is supposed to be populated by old timers, is so hung up on balance and competitive play. I think video games did this to us. When I first got into the hobby in the mid 90's we just wanted to manoeuvre cool armies (and tanks!) around and destroy stuff. How did it become a competitive sport?
Games that get used in tournaments tend to have a highly competitive element leak into them over time until the tournament mindset dominates the game. Don't know why, just seems to happen.
And if someone wants to build an army like that, then what does it matter to you? Granted, they'd be better off playing Hordes of the Things, where I've seen armies made of those troll toys with the silly hair fighting the most fantastically painted naked female wood elf army I've ever seen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/05 11:41:18
2015/07/05 11:41:28
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Norsed wrote: Games that get used in tournaments tend to have a highly competitive element leak into them over time until the tournament mindset dominates the game. Don't know why, just seems to happen.
I've played in one tournament in my whole life. Waste of a day. I grew out of competitive gaming years ago. I prefer narrative driven games, and spend more time playing the 40KRPG's than 40K proper.
And I want a balanced game with a tight unambiguous rule set because such a thing benefits everyone.
~4100
~1660
