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'Ard boys, you mean?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Said it before, saying it again:
GW could go up and down the street giving people free puppies and still there would be people shouting that "GW tried to kill me--I'm allergic to dogs!".

Quite frankly, GW can't do anything without "losing good will with a good portion of the customer base" if you listen to posters on forums.

Yeah, thats why GW's financials have been on the up and up the past 2 years, right?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Apart from all the time that they did, right?

I think we should avoid conflating certain designers having ideas about the game and GW management having ideas about the game.

GW started as a company of gamers that wanted to do fun stuff. Not much of the early attempts at rules writing could be considered balanced or tournament worthy though. Once the company went corporate, the focus shifted into accounting over gameplay. I think Andy Chamber's case is proof enough of that. It's no like he was the only person that wanted a tighter, more focused rules set only to be turned away.

Relapse wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 Xyxox wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
So no more orcs and goblins.

Whelp, there goes my plans to buy a spider rider army.

When it comes to being a massive, depressing disappointment, GW never disappoints.

Orcs and Goblins are still there...

No clue where people are getting these ideas. The rules for old orcs and goblins are up. The models aren't discontinued. They renamed them in the new fluff.

Are we drinking some new rumor koolaid?

GW PR Rep at Forge World Open Day stated openly, once the new factions get a rework, the old models will go OOP. Said the new Orruks were going to be considerably different from the Orcs of today, so when the Orruks get new models, all old Orc and Goblin models will be pulled.

That's actually quite awesome. I was worried they wouldn't be moving ahead on stuff fast, and I'm used to my orcs and orks being dead last to update. I have most every orc model going back to 3rd. The scale creep doesn't bother me, or how things fit with new things. Part of that comes from having so many armies. About 20 at the shop and the old stuff has been coming home to my game room for a long, long time. I'm currently working on a squad of the oldest metal beastmen for AoS and two of the old nick bibby dragon ogres i found on ebay.

But i don't see how this is "orcs going away". it's the same thing as any other time new models came out. People are just still in their flaminganger stage so they are pissed/disappointed about things more. If the new Orruks look even half as good as the other new models, it's going to be glorious.

Did you get any idea for any release dates in your conversation with the reps? I am thinking more and more that I'll be getting into this game in a big way with my undead the more I hear about it.

Nothing at all. They let us know a week in advance Complete mushroom treatment. I'm happy to hear the leaked news from FW open day someone posted above. It gives me something i can tell customers at least.

It's like, GW saw it's best sales when the fostered a community that was actively willing and able to shell out large money to play new armies, try new things, and look to bust metas with irregular builds that went against the grain. Maybe, just maybe, competitive games sell a ton more than just fluffy fun times, but it's not like we have any data supporting this evidence.

*checks the financials and comparing to release trends and competition*

Well, I guess correlation isn't causation, but something sure stinks real bad about their mindset, how they've changed their release pattern and game design, and their continued bottoming out of sales/revenue.

 Xyxox wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Said it before, saying it again:
GW could go up and down the street giving people free puppies and still there would be people shouting that "GW tried to kill me--I'm allergic to dogs!".

Quite frankly, GW can't do anything without "losing good will with a good portion of the customer base" if you listen to posters on forums.

Yeah, because instead of just squatting all of the old armies, they decided to shame people with them into giving them up for new garbage. People should accept this and buy as much new garbage as possible since GW gave them such a gift.



No thanks. This is not the sort of company I care to do future business with, especially in a saturated market where I have a vast number of choices.

One man's garbage is another man's gold. /shrug.

To each their own.

 TheKbob wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Never.

Show me a GW-organized tournament for which the "champion" was determined solely by competitive Win-Loss record and margin of victory. Go on, take as long as you like.

GW only ever wanted people to buy more stuff.

The notion of GW actually wanting competitive play? That's a fiction that you've created of of thin air.

Ah, so I guess 'Ard Boyz was just a fever dream. Because it totally fit that build of win-loss with higher and higher levels of qualifiers for the main event.

Plus that's what the entirety of 3E-5E 40k was based upon. Fantasy had an 'Ard Boyz, too, and had a booming tournament scene until 8E crapped the bed.

See previous statements about competitive games better for all.

'Ardboyz tournaments came out of the US Trade Sales team. The guys that understood organized play in the US and who liked selling boatloads of models to Independent Retailers. But the UK squatted any independent thinking, games days, 'ardboyz, the independent GT circuit and throne of skulls in the US. A shame. I sold 2-3 times as much GW back then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:
It's like, GW saw it's best sales when the fostered a community that was actively willing and able to shell out large money to play new armies, try new things, and look to bust metas with irregular builds that went against the grain. Maybe, just maybe, competitive games sell a ton more than just fluffy fun times, but it's not like we have any data supporting this evidence.

*checks the financials and comparing to release trends and competition*

Well, I guess correlation isn't causation, but something sure stinks real bad about their mindset, how they've changed their release pattern and game design, and their continued bottoming out of sales/revenue.

QFT

 Kanluwen wrote:
Said it before, saying it again:
GW could go up and down the street giving people free puppies and still there would be people shouting that "GW tried to kill me--I'm allergic to dogs!".

Quite frankly, GW can't do anything without "losing good will with a good portion of the customer base" if you listen to posters on forums.

Some people are so blind to the truth. GW doesn't give a gak about it's customer base, as long as they buy stuff. The are happy to sell 1 box instead of multiple boxes over time. That is the reason why they are in financial woes. Short term vision rather than looking at the big picture, fostering good will to the player base. It's too bad, I love GW's models and the background.

I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

Then define for us what you mean by an official tournament run by GW.

Because to me, handing out scenario/rule packages, a format to follow, and prize support is about as official as you can get.

Either way, I feel like the goal posts moved.

It's pretty simple:

GW runs the tournament.

You pay GW the entry fee, GW sends you the tournament at their venue, GW refs and scores the games, GW determines the winner.

Very simple, very clear.

By that very narrow definition, then sure, but its still goal post moving.

Your post was about GW organizing a tournament. The underlying point was about whether or not GW ever wanted a competitive scene.

As for organizing, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people will feel that the likes of 'Ard Boyz is indeed 'official', seeing as it had GW money and rules support, and was put forward entirely by GW on their own initiative. The only difference between your definition and mine is the location. Pretty shaky argument if you ask me.

As for wanting a competitive scene, it'd be pretty hard to argue that even with your incredibly narrow perspective of 'official', 'Ard Boyz clearly demonstrates that for a time, GW was interested and supported competitive play through an 'official' tournament run across NA.

But if you'd prefer to feel smug about being technically correct by your own (arbitrary) definition, then yes, you're right.

 GiraffeX wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
So no more orcs and goblins.

Whelp, there goes my plans to buy a spider rider army.

When it comes to being a massive, depressing disappointment, GW never disappoints.

Orcs and Goblins are still there...

They are until they release the new version of the Orcs then the old will be discontinued

Your minis don't self-destruct when they make new models...

 pretre wrote:

 GiraffeX wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
So no more orcs and goblins.

Whelp, there goes my plans to buy a spider rider army.

When it comes to being a massive, depressing disappointment, GW never disappoints.

Orcs and Goblins are still there...

They are until they release the new version of the Orcs then the old will be discontinued

Your minis don't self-destruct when they make new models...

but they can look danged odd once the scale creep hits...

 Xyxox wrote:
but they can look danged odd once the scale creep hits...

That's the exact same situation we have been in for the last 20+ years. Nothing new at all.

I believe what Melissa and GiraffeX were referring to was the mention of a significant change in style, accompanied by all the current miniatures going OOP.

No self-destruction, but unless you want to 'grab them while you can' and convince GW's accountants that all is well with the world, you're stuck browsing the secondhand market for some pretty fantastic models.

Especially the spider-gobbos.

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

Then define for us what you mean by an official tournament run by GW.

Because to me, handing out scenario/rule packages, a format to follow, and prize support is about as official as you can get.

Either way, I feel like the goal posts moved.

They didn't move, they uprooted themselves and fething legged it.

But then, people seldom admit they're wrong on the Internet, even when they're bang to rights, let alone a self confessed troll like John.

I guess all the tournament packets coming from GW, the prize support, and handling when/where the finals were didn't count because it was GW NA. So much like Kirby, John feels like GW NA is irrelevant and otiose.

So John's thinking is totally in line for "GW proper", I suppose. It just makes zero all sense to the rest of the world.

 pretre wrote:

 Xyxox wrote:
but they can look danged odd once the scale creep hits...

That's the exact same situation we have been in for the last 20+ years. Nothing new at all.

And it's an issue for those with existing collections every time it happens.

 Spinner wrote:
I believe what Melissa and GiraffeX were referring to was the mention of a significant change in style, accompanied by all the current miniatures going OOP.

No self-destruction, but unless you want to 'grab them while you can' and convince GW's accountants that all is well with the world, you're stuck browsing the secondhand market for some pretty fantastic models.

Especially the spider-gobbos.

GW could sell out a lot of stuff easily by letting it be known that <insert faction name here> was going to be released in X number of weeks, even if via purposeful leaks. Especially if those rumors are true and it gets leaked to somebody who has reliably put up rumors in the past. It would be a way of clearing out inventory before the new models hit as some people go on a buying binge to get those models they hadn't quite got around to buying yet.

After all, you will never ever get a chance to buy a new box of Orc Arrer Boyz. your only option now is eBay and eventually that venue will start drying up.

For now, spider-gobbos are still up, and they make fine fleabag riders in KoW.

Can someone please explain the new rules ? I'm confused a bit out of the loop on why they have no point system to build your army. The New Rules are free as well on GW website ?

I hope GW will move away from the 'flavor of the month' release pattern, where one army gets all the love. It would be awesome for an August release to be a unit each for four or six different armies.

I know. I'm smoking crack.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

Then define for us what you mean by an official tournament run by GW.

Because to me, handing out scenario/rule packages, a format to follow, and prize support is about as official as you can get.

Either way, I feel like the goal posts moved.

They didn't move, they uprooted themselves and fething legged it.

But then, people seldom admit they're wrong on the Internet, even when they're bang to rights, let alone a self confessed troll like John.

It's not my fault that you make poor assumptions. Nor is it surprising, given your posting history.

Also, it's rich that you're calling me "troll". Well, pot, you know what? You're totally fething black. Blacker than black, you fething pot of pots.


Me, I'm just glad to have gotten the current set of Warhammer rules for FREE.

I would love for one of my current armies to suddenly switch scale and style. It would look so cohesive as a narrative and aesthetically.

 Sammoth wrote:
Can someone please explain the new rules ? I'm confused a bit out of the loop on why they have no point system to build your army. The New Rules are free as well on GW website ?

PM sent.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

Then define for us what you mean by an official tournament run by GW.

Because to me, handing out scenario/rule packages, a format to follow, and prize support is about as official as you can get.

Either way, I feel like the goal posts moved.

They didn't move, they uprooted themselves and fething legged it.

But then, people seldom admit they're wrong on the Internet, even when they're bang to rights, let alone a self confessed troll like John.

It's not my fault that you make poor assumptions. Nor is it surprising, given your posting history.

Also, it's rich that you're calling me "troll". Well, pot, you know what? You're totally fething black. Blacker than black, you fething pot of pots.


Me, I'm just glad to have gotten the current set of Warhammer rules for FREE.

You're mistaking my disagreeing with people because I, you know, disagree with them for your own brand of disagreeing with people just to generate conflict.

One of these things is not like the other, but if you wanna keep violating rule 1 at me, be my guest, I feel justified in saying what I said because you told me in thread that you do this.

As for assumptions?

Well, if a bunch of other people make the same assumption, then I'd say the fault lies with your expression.

Or, you know, you're WRONG!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see a lot of nonsense about Ard Boyz, but that wasn't an official GW Tournament run by GW.

Does GW even do Grand Tournaments any more?

Then define for us what you mean by an official tournament run by GW.

Because to me, handing out scenario/rule packages, a format to follow, and prize support is about as official as you can get.

Either way, I feel like the goal posts moved.

They didn't move, they uprooted themselves and fething legged it.

But then, people seldom admit they're wrong on the Internet, even when they're bang to rights, let alone a self confessed troll like John.

It's not my fault that you make poor assumptions. Nor is it surprising, given your posting history.

Also, it's rich that you're calling me "troll". Well, pot, you know what? You're totally fething black. Blacker than black, you fething pot of pots.


Me, I'm just glad to have gotten the current set of Warhammer rules for FREE.

There used to be a place to go to continue uncouth, off-topic, thread-derailing digressions. The Dakka equivalent of stepping outside. What was it called?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Me, I'm just glad to have gotten the current set of Warhammer rules for FREE.

Well, and here's the measure of their value: Would you have honestly paid the standard issue $85 for them and another $50 for these "army books" as released with the standard recycled fluff?

I'm betting a great majority of folks saying "AoS ain't that bad!" would sing a different tune. More so when there are better free games out there previously.

 Blacksails wrote:
Wasn't 'Ard Boyz run by GW? They sent out the packages to local stores to run, with prize support from GW.

I would classify that as GW-run.

 TheKbob wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Me, I'm just glad to have gotten the current set of Warhammer rules for FREE.

Well, and here's the measure of their value: Would you have honestly paid the standard issue $85 for them and another $50 for these "army books" as released with the standard recycled fluff?

I'm betting a great majority of folks saying "AoS ain't that bad!" would sing a different tune. More so when there are better free games out there previously.

Oh, there's your problem: you think $85 is a completely reasonable price to pay for a rulebook that doesn't even come with any army lists. GW has done its work well.


I have no dog in this fight. By my 3rd game of 8th edition, I was done; GW had killed my favorite game. They wrecked the charge phase, dumbed down the terrain rules, and reduced tactics to "be the first to kill the horde unit with a total-power tac-nuke-spell." So I know what everyone is going through. You are mourning the loss of something you love, and you want to commiserate with others who share your grief. You don't want to hear Old Uncle Fellblade telling you to get over it and get a new puppy, already. I'm kind of ashamed to say that I enjoyed my games of AoS, but I did, and I look forward to playing more.