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2015/07/06 23:54:12
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
As to the use of WAAC.. people who look for technicalities in the rules, take FotM armies, have zero interest in sportsmanship, and often go to extreme measures to win games. If your club doesn't have these, I am thoroughly surprised. I've gamed with people who throw dice, that same guy would take a Rhino off the table if it got popped and spike it like a football.. One instance, I had a pewter part fly over and cut my leg.
Another, the guy sets up "sniping" lanes with vehicles so that only specific models are visible, so those are the ones that have to be pulled.
Then there's the guy who argues over every single thing you do so that the rulebook ends up out the entire game. Same guy does beardy measuring and generous disembark.
Old WHFB dirty tricks like catching corners and the different exploits that dealt with facing and re-dressing.
With guess weapons back in the day or I guess in WHFB too, guys who would have things that were a certain pre-known size, and conveniently leave them on the table prior to their shooting phase. "Gee, why is that rulebook laying there?"
Guys that had special dice (more than one was busted) or non-standard templates that are a bit larger than the official ones...
Guys in tournaments that switch out to an entirely different army when they find out what you're playing.
When I gamed at a club, I put up with this stuff but when I consider branching back out and see this kinda stuff still considered norm (that was in Va Beach, I see the same stuff in San Diego).
No, I don't do these things. All of this type of thing, plus seeing grown men get in each others faces and yell (you could see flecks of spit most times), people packing their stuff and storming out, or all the little net-list guys running around looking for loopholes in the rules or bad punctuation so that they could build an army around a poorly phrased section of rules. Again.. if you somehow have managed to game in a place where these things don't happen.. I'm amazed and my hat is off to you.. but WAAC is a real thing. A guy named Shane said this to me "winning is all that matters.. if I'm not winning, I'm not having fun. This game is all about having fun right?"
I'm happy for Dumbhammer because if it's that simple, how do you pull the above crap? Yeah, cheating is cheating but come on..
Spoiler'd for viewing sake, but half that stuff is actually leveraging the tactics allowed by the rules and other is actively cheating. There's a difference. The connotation of WAAC seems to integrate the people legitimately trying to play their best and to win, which is part of the game, with the turd muffins actually winning at all costs, including cheating, lying and deceit. Warhammer 40k is the only gaming community that lumps them together, most others realize the difference and don't diminish those looking to perfect the art of the game (and of the win) and instead embrace it by balancing the rules in a manner such that the strongest player can still play with the most casual and have it be a game if they're both honest and active in participation.
And no, random tables, charges, and objectives do not make a game balanced.
The concept of "beer and pretzels" game usually means one that can be played casually with minimal interest in outcome; a time waster. Well, a better made game is always going to be better "beer and pretzels" play because less time is invested in deciphering rules meaning or belittling various styles of play and more time actually playing and enjoying the game.
If you think something is cheap, you're actively being the negative "WAAC" person, or as matter of fact, a scrub; you're forcing false inhibitions not put into the game on yourself, or worse, on others, and making a stink because people are embracing all the rules. The rules are the rules, live by them, die by them. And if you chose a game with dumb or bad rules and then complain about getting curbed stomped by people following them, then the problem is actually you. Again, only an issue really in the 40k gaming community from what I've seen as the people who try to pull that in other games usually quit back to 40k instead of stepping up typically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 23:54:38
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2015/07/06 23:54:20
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
WOTC gets this. What frustrates so many people (myself included), is that GW seemingly doesn't.
Notice that in the MTG articles they actually differentiate between power gamers and tournament gamers. And yet in wargaming discussion the two are constantly confused. People always assumethat to be competitive means you only have fun when you win.
The second article shows that they not only understand that there are different kinds of gamers, but they understand why. And of course most gamers are in fact a combination of types.
So why is it so hard for GW to just acknowledge this?
Get Some.
2015/07/06 23:55:00
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Elemental wrote: Now the first set of gamers has been told they were having the wrong sort of fun
TBF this was hardly sprung on anyone. "You want to play a tournament? Figure it out for yourself." This has been the official line, shaping game design, for a while now.
Vermis wrote: And GW's contradictory rules, intent, and message will make sure that people who enjoy different ways of enjoying this hobby will butt heads more often than usual.
I kind of doubt that. Seems like people who are more into competitive gaming will steer clear of AoS. And people who are more into narrative gaming will join in.
That also neatly sums up why I dislike AoS. Old WHF could more-or-less be played competitively as well as casually (albeit with more and more patching necessary by TO's as editions went on). Now the first set of gamers has been told they were having the wrong sort of fun, and Warhammer from this point onwards will be aggressively targeted away from them. Did you enjoy playing Warhammer as at least a semi-competitive game during the last twenty-odd years? Sucks to be you.
I dunno... I think you might be associating motives with GW that may or may not exist.
They don't have a 'competitive' mechanic for AoS (yet). I don't think that's telling you that tournament play is 'wrong', I think that's telling you that they see no reason to use resources to present tournament play for you. The playerbase as a whole has spent -years- doing that FOR GW. Why should GW use resources to do something the playerbase will do for free?...
....Unless, GW can make something out of it. According to rumors in this thread, GW -is- working on some sort of 'competitive mechanic'.... and there have been rumors mentioned that there will be some sort of cost/subscription required to access it.
We'll see in time, but taking it 'personally' that GW doesn't present tournament mechanics for you just seems a bit misplaced. And 'designing' the game specifically away from competitive play? That doesn't make a whole bunch of sense, either. Literally any game can be given the 'tournament play' treatment, or any 'activity' that involves competition - which AoS certainly possesses.
"Wheels within wheels, in a spiral array, a pattern so grand and complex.
Time after time we lose sight of the way, our causes can't see their effects."
2015/07/07 00:08:05
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Chopxsticks wrote: So if the large expensive book contains Warscrolls and campaigns will we expect to see those warscrolls online for free at somepoint? Or will any new introduces Warscrolls only be obtainable through a purchase?
The book coming out is not needed for AOS. It's stories, fluff, some warscrolls that I expect will be from upcoming model releases and units in the starter set.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
2015/07/07 00:22:47
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
We'll see in time, but taking it 'personally' that GW doesn't present tournament mechanics for you just seems a bit misplaced. And 'designing' the game specifically away from competitive play? That doesn't make a whole bunch of sense, either. Literally any game can be given the 'tournament play' treatment, or any 'activity' that involves competition - which AoS certainly possesses.
Another good point.
One example that comes to mind is Super Smash Brothers Melee. What was designed to be a party game was turned into a hyper competitive e sport by a small group of players. For years tournaments drawing hundreds of players thrived. Nintendo knew that these competitive players existed, by basically ignored them. You'd think that they would have viewed this as untapped territory, with profit to be made. Instead, when they released Brawl, they were accused of making the game less competitive deliberately. They game physics were altered to make characters more "floaty" The ability to combo was reduced. Instead of balancing the characters and stages, they were thrown out of balance even further, and more random elements were added. Basically, the game was altered to make player skill less of a factor. Most competitive players just kept playing Melee. Others modded Brawl to be more in line with their tastes. But Nintendo has run into some financial problems of their own lately, meanwhile, E Sports are blowing up. It makes you wonder what would have happened had they embrace the competitive community instead of shunning it.
Now obviously this example still proves your point. The competitive Super Smash Bros community got on just fine despite Nintendos efforts. But honestly, I just don't see the wargaming community doing as much. I haven't seen any major tournaments go back to older editions, or rewrite the rules. Rather, I see more and more players giving up on tournaments, or the game entirely. I guess we just don't have the same amount of passion for our game as SSB players do for theirs.
Get Some.
2015/07/07 00:26:46
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Manchu wrote:I kind of doubt that. Seems like people who are more into competitive gaming will steer clear of AoS. And people who are more into narrative gaming will join in.
Pretty much what Yodhrin and Delicate Swarm said, or variations: don't confuse competitive gamers who want a balanced, fair system with power gamers who delight in seeking out every little loophole and imbalance to take advantage of them. The latter seemed to like 40K and WFB because of the imbalance and spam possible in the overwhelmingly listbuilding-based systems. If they could get that much and gain such a reputation from abusing GW's unbound, half-a-shrug attempts at points systems, what's it going to be like with no points system at all, just 'bring what you like'?
MLaw wrote:As to the use of WAAC.. people who look for technicalities in the rules, take FotM armies, have zero interest in sportsmanship, and often go to extreme measures to win games. If your club doesn't have these, I am thoroughly surprised.
Okay.
I've gamed with people who throw dice, that same guy would take a Rhino off the table if it got popped and spike it like a football.
A rhino. Okay. That's 40K, unless you're playing some obscure safari game.
Old WHFB dirty tricks like catching corners
WHFB, okay.
With guess weapons back in the day or I guess in WHFB too,
WHFB again, and... what's the 'too'? Is that 40K, and WHFB too?
No mention of other games. Just 40K and WHFB? The two core games of GW? GW's core systems?
- 80-02-01 and 80-02-60 are the previous codes of the old WFB BRB. When a product becomes obsolete it usually gives its code to its replacement.
- "BS1 MSL of 1" means those are important items, all retailers being part of the stockist program, even at the lowest level (BS1), must have as many as the MSL present on their shelves at all time.
2015/07/07 00:39:08
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
- 80-02-01 and 80-02-60 are the previous codes of the old WFB BRB. When a product becomes obsolete it usually gives its code to its replacement.
- "BS1 MSL of 1" means those are important items, all retailers being part of the stockist program, even at the lowest level (BS1), must have as many as the MSL present on their shelves at all time.
MSL = "Minimum Stock Level", with MSL 1 = "Minimum Stock Level = 1 copy" perhaps?
Interesting that this coming book would take over the BRB stock #.
"Wheels within wheels, in a spiral array, a pattern so grand and complex.
Time after time we lose sight of the way, our causes can't see their effects."
2015/07/07 00:39:34
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Chopxsticks wrote: So if the large expensive book contains Warscrolls and campaigns will we expect to see those warscrolls online for free at somepoint? Or will any new introduces Warscrolls only be obtainable through a purchase?
The book coming out is not needed for AOS. It's stories, fluff, some warscrolls that I expect will be from upcoming model releases and units in the starter set.
"They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.
The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios."
Chopxsticks wrote: So if the large expensive book contains Warscrolls and campaigns will we expect to see those warscrolls online for free at somepoint? Or will any new introduces Warscrolls only be obtainable through a purchase?
The book coming out is not needed for AOS. It's stories, fluff, some warscrolls that I expect will be from upcoming model releases and units in the starter set.
"They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.
The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios."
So. . . now it's offical you can automatically win turn 1 with the screaming bell Lord of change combo. Besides that it sounds like AoS might actually be a great game if they can follow through on that guys promises
Everything I say, barring quotes and researched information, is my personal opinion. Not fact.
"Being into 40k but not the background is like being into porn but not masturbation..." - Kain
"I barely believe my dice are not sentient and conspiring against me." - knas ser
2015/07/07 00:55:06
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
So. . . now it's offical you can automatically win turn 1 with the screaming bell Lord of change combo. Besides that it sounds like AoS might actually be a great game if they can follow through on that guys promises
Peal of Doom In your hero phase, the Screaming Bell tolls. Roll two dice, add the scores together and consult the table below to see what happens (no modifiers can be applied to this roll).
13 - Improbable Victory!: Against all probability and reason, you immediately win the battle (and are hereafter branded a cheat – not that that should bother a true skaven general).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 01:02:39
2015/07/07 01:03:52
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I wonder if they'll work up some rules for all current 40K armies, too? Maybe I should hang on to my Dark Angels for now, especially since my Ork Boyz will work with the current system.
2015/07/07 01:20:26
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
So. . . now it's offical you can automatically win turn 1 with the screaming bell Lord of change combo. Besides that it sounds like AoS might actually be a great game if they can follow through on that guys promises
Peal of Doom In your hero phase, the Screaming Bell tolls. Roll two dice, add the scores together and consult the table below to see what happens (no modifiers can be applied to this roll).
13 - Improbable Victory!: Against all probability and reason, you immediately win the battle (and are hereafter branded a cheat – not that that should bother a true skaven general).
Pay no mind to the branding iron that will be on hand at many local game stores.
Rules is rules, after all.
2015/07/07 01:38:11
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
While the new rules are a thing that's debatable, I'm still not sure how AoS required the elimination of the Old World and all it's years of fluff with the End Times.
At the eleventh hour, with Khorne ascendant from all the bloodshed of the war of the End Times, the forces of Good finally get their wish and a god- Sigmar himself- emerges to be their champion against the Chaos Gods. He beings with him a force of beings ascended from battlefields the Old World over, reforged into angelic beings to support the side of Order.
At the same time the sinister Grimdark side of everything is preserved, because like some players have said- at their heart, these pinnacles of good are effectively "good" Necrons, dying in battle only to have their souls placed in new bodies and sent back into an eternity of battle.
Pretty much every race could stay the same, it's just that lots of them would now have their "gods", whether divine or just powerful mortals that are transcended, on the mortal plane backing them directly.
Part of the coolness of the Old World was that you had a really cool world to delve into in the fluff and in games you could imagine your armies during campaign games were actually interacting with that world.
Right now, the idea of multiple realms or Order, Death, Chaos, etc that simply have gates connecting them is kinda soulless. I hope it gets fleshed out much, much better in the book that comes with the game, and over the next however long the game exists.
It's gonna be hard to top the Old World, though. Or impossible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 02:16:01
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2015/07/07 02:14:43
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
AegisGrimm wrote: While the new rules are a thing that's debatable, I'm still not sure how AoS required the elimination of the Old World and all it's years of fluff with the End Times.
At the eleventh hour, with Khorne ascendant from all the bloodshed of the war of the End Times, the forces of Good finally get their wish and a god- Sigmar himself- emerges to be their champion against the Chaos Gods. He beings with him a force of beings ascended from battlefields the Old World over, reforged into angelic beings to support the side of Order.
At the same time the sinister Grimdark side of everything is preserved, because like some players have said- at their heart, these pinnacles of good are effectively "good" Necrons, dying in battle only to have their souls placed in new bodies and sent back into an eternity of battle.
Pretty much every race could stay the same, it's just that lots of them would now have their "gods", whether divine or just powerful mortals that are transcended, on the mortal plane backing them directly.
Nuking all the old fluff means they have legitimate reason to say "X" unit no longer exists. Here's some silly rules to play your old models, but we're not gonna talk about those anymore. Here, try these New and Fineproved™ miniatures to add to your Finellection™.
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2015/07/07 02:18:06
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Age of Sigmar isn't about advancing the story... That's just a secondary effect. The prime objective of AoS, as far as I can see, was to shift the setting into something that GW could Trademark every single part of.
2015/07/07 02:18:34
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I may be a pessimist, but I have a hard time believing AoS will come up with stuff to match Gotrek and Felix fighting across the Old World, or the old Albion campaign, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 02:19:29
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2015/07/07 02:18:56
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I was definitely imagining a post-apocalyptic Old World being the backdrop of the new edition after they began the End Times.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2015/07/07 02:25:39
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Eldarain wrote: I was definitely imagining a post-apocalyptic Old World being the backdrop of the new edition after they began the End Times.
Same, and I was genuinely stoked. But they azerothed all over this piece.
Edit: the more I think about it, the more down with the sigmarines I would have been if this were literally the same scenario except they were coming to liberate a shattered and twisted Old World instead of a bunch of charmless planar dimensions that I don't have any attachment to at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 02:29:01
Thought for the day
2015/07/07 02:43:09
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Elemental wrote: Now the first set of gamers has been told they were having the wrong sort of fun
TBF this was hardly sprung on anyone. "You want to play a tournament? Figure it out for yourself." This has been the official line, shaping game design, for a while now.
And that's an excuse for GW to abdicate all responsibility when it comes to writing a decent set of rules?
Edit: the more I think about it, the more down with the sigmarines I would have been if this were literally the same scenario except they were coming to liberate a shattered and twisted Old World instead of a bunch of charmless planar dimensions that I don't have any attachment to at all.
Heck yeah, I imagine them coming down in like Asgardians in the Thor Movies, right between an Empire army and a Chaos force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 02:45:24
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2015/07/07 02:44:57
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Elemental wrote: Now the first set of gamers has been told they were having the wrong sort of fun
TBF this was hardly sprung on anyone. "You want to play a tournament? Figure it out for yourself." This has been the official line, shaping game design, for a while now.
And that's an excuse for GW to abdicate all responsibility when it comes to writing a decent set of rules?
As long as it sells models, and it looks like AoS will sell models, who cares if anybody can play the rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 02:45:29
2015/07/07 02:45:47
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
insaniak wrote: Age of Sigmar isn't about advancing the story... That's just a secondary effect. The prime objective of AoS, as far as I can see, was to shift the setting into something that GW could Trademark every single part of.
It's sad that the overall effect of the CHS case was a company more paranoid, insular, secretive and petty than ever before.
insaniak wrote: Age of Sigmar isn't about advancing the story... That's just a secondary effect. The prime objective of AoS, as far as I can see, was to shift the setting into something that GW could Trademark every single part of.
It's sad that the overall effect of the CHS case was a company more paranoid, insular, secretive and petty than ever before.
Exalted
2015/07/07 03:00:12
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Elemental wrote: Now the first set of gamers has been told they were having the wrong sort of fun
TBF this was hardly sprung on anyone. "You want to play a tournament? Figure it out for yourself." This has been the official line, shaping game design, for a while now.
And that's an excuse for GW to abdicate all responsibility when it comes to writing a decent set of rules?
As long as it sells models, and it looks like AoS will sell models, who cares if anybody can play the rules?
If it actually sells models...it will mean I was wrong and they still hold the old commandments to be sacred:
1. Sell more lead
2. Space Marines always win
3. See rule one.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
Orks
GreyKnights
Admech
Thought for the day 
