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 Blacksails wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.

I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.

Well... there's only two 2++ save items that I can think of off the top of my head, so there may be more. But these two that I can think of are really not anything special;

1) The DE Shadowfield; if you fail the 2++, the Shadowfield is "destroyed", and so cannot be used after that. Given that it's only available for a T3 dude... it's also a good chance that the dude will be dead anyways.
2) The SM "Armor Indomitus" relic; this item provides a once per game 2++. While it does have some other benefits (2+ armor, 6++, Relentless), it's also ridiculously expensive. Most of the reason to take the Armor Indomitus is actually to combine Relentless with the Primarch's Wrath relic (a Salvo 3/5 bolter).

So there might be others that actually do break things, but these two are far from broken.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.

I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.

Well... there's only two 2++ save items that I can think of off the top of my head, so there may be more. But these two that I can think of are really not anything special;

1) The DE Shadowfield; if you fail the 2++, the Shadowfield is "destroyed", and so cannot be used after that. Given that it's only available for a T3 dude... it's also a good chance that the dude will be dead anyways.
2) The SM "Armor Indomitus" relic; this item provides a once per game 2++. While it does have some other benefits (2+ armor, 6++, Relentless), it's also ridiculously expensive. Most of the reason to take the Armor Indomitus is actually to combine Relentless with the Primarch's Wrath relic (a Salvo 3/5 bolter).

So there might be others that actually do break things, but these two are far from broken.

2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

There's a ton of ways to get 2+ cover (sometimes with rerolls) as well, which can often be nearly as powerful, especially on units that are largely immune to most cover-ignoring weapons (e.g. Nurgle daemonprince with Jink).

The idea of a 2+ invul at all just a couple of years ago was the stuff of hyperbole short of the DE Shadowfield (which was on a T3 characters and stopped working after it failed) and a rerollable 2++ was literally only found in 4chan exaggeration. The fact that 2+ covers and 2+ invuls are so common now is a major issue.

Anything shrouded in a ruin has a 2+ cover, but almost every army has some way to deny cover saves. Remind me which army can deny invuln saves. Oh that's right, none of them. Perils of the warp is the only thing that denies an invuln which relies on your opponent throwing too many dice at powers and being really unlucky to even get 1 or 2 wounds from it. A squad of screamers has 24 wounds and a re rollable 2++. My friend plays this list and playing it RAW is the most broken thing I've ever seen, including lucky MTG turn 2 wins. The opponent essentially removes models or gets his important models tar pitted by a unit that requires 864 wounds to kill. I tried serpent spam and grav star, another guy tried farsight bomb with triptide, another tried 5 Flyrant, another tried ad lance, nothing even came close to beating that list. On turn 1 they can be on nearly every objective on the table, bubble wrapping them so even with obsec you have to kill 2 or 3 to get close enough to take the objective. Then you have kairos flying around bombing you with 17 spells a turn giving zero feths. This is the only thing that can take down a skilled player with a properly built decurion army. From there it's basically a fight for third between all the armies that still get roflstomped by 2++ re rollable and decurion.

 Toofast wrote:
Anything shrouded in a ruin has a 2+ cover, but almost every army has some way to deny cover saves. Remind me which army can deny invuln saves. Oh that's right, none of them. Perils of the warp is the only thing that denies an invuln which relies on your opponent throwing too many dice at powers and being really unlucky to even get 1 or 2 wounds from it. A squad of screamers has 24 wounds and a re rollable 2++. My friend plays this list and playing it RAW is the most broken thing I've ever seen, including lucky MTG turn 2 wins. The opponent essentially removes models or gets his important models tar pitted by a unit that requires 864 wounds to kill. I tried serpent spam and grav star, another guy tried farsight bomb with triptide, another tried 5 Flyrant, another tried ad lance, nothing even came close to beating that list. On turn 1 they can be on nearly every objective on the table, bubble wrapping them so even with obsec you have to kill 2 or 3 to get close enough to take the objective. Then you have kairos flying around bombing you with 17 spells a turn giving zero feths. This is the only thing that can take down a skilled player with a properly built decurion army. From there it's basically a fight for third between all the armies that still get roflstomped by 2++ re rollable and decurion.

I mean, you don't need to resort to cheese to win against Decurion. Play to objectives, shoot the high priority targets first.

The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.

 Toofast wrote:
The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.

I mean, I appreciate you giving Necrons that much credit and saying that have that kind of firepower, but realistically, I haven't tabled my opponent except, maybe, twice? And it was by turn 6?

 Toofast wrote:
The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.

Yep. The only work around I've seen to these situations is that a LGS tourney I played in took out that rule, but if you were tabled, your opponent had one more turn to score objectives. This way you could get tabled, but still win by playing to objectives.

Besides, 40k is all about survivability. That's the advantage of bike SM armies

 krodarklorr wrote:
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.

After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.

After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.

I agree with changing Sanctuary, though a new ruleset is awhile away, and thus won't happen for a long time. And they should just change Invulns to cap at at 3++ in general. That would fix things.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.

After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.

I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.

 Toofast wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.

After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.

I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.

This isn't taking into consideration that, if there was something that hard to kill, more times than not, you can ignore/tarpit them and focus on killing other things. Thats what I do to Riptides. I don't have enough high strength AP2 to worry about them, so I ignore them and kill everything else.

2 squads of 8 screamers each are kind of difficult to just ignore if the opponent uses them to bubble wrap key objectives. Tarpit only works if they can kill you in a round of combat, which they can when they trade their attacks for one attack each at AP2. Also you can't ignore them because they can move 24", then charge your most important unit the next turn.

 Toofast wrote:
2 squads of 8 screamers each are kind of difficult to just ignore if the opponent uses them to bubble wrap key objectives. Tarpit only works if they can kill you in a round of combat, which they can when they trade their attacks for one attack each at AP2. Also you can't ignore them because they can move 24", then charge your most important unit the next turn.

Well, thankfully Daemons should have an update soon. Plus, it's harder to get the ridiculous psychic powers off on them now. But anyway, this thread is about countering the Decurion, not Daemons.

Tone down Wraiths and it's a good dex. All they need is either go back to t4 or their invul to ACTUALLY MEET their wargear. Hence, 4++. Or both.

 koooaei wrote:
Tone down Wraiths and it's a good dex. All they need is either go back to t4 or their invul to ACTUALLY MEET their wargear. Hence, 4++. Or both.

They don't have Phase Shifters anymore though. So, technically, their invuln isn't not matching their wargear.

Screamer star is going to have a bad time if wraiths with RP catch up to them. I didn't think it was even considered a particularly good army since 7th.

You want to beat up on a Decurion? Take some Whirlwinds and Heavy Bolters and laugh as they only ignore half your attacks instead of a quarter of them, and you have far more attacks than you've ever thrown before.

Tekron wrote:
Screamer star is going to have a bad time if wraiths with RP catch up to them. I didn't think it was even considered a particularly good army since 7th.

It was good enough for top 8 at LVO and 1st at adepticon this year...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.

I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.

Necrons have tons of mobility.

Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.

Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:

Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)

Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.

 jy2 wrote:

Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:

Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)

Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.

Aaaaand this is why I don't even bother with the competitive setting. Adlance is stupid, and Invisible Deathstars shouldn't be a thing, but GW thought that would be a nice touch to the game. Also, why the hell would US tournaments rule that Gauss does nothing to Void Shields? That just doesn't even make sense, and gimps Necrons as a whole. That is how we deal with armor, after all. The point is, Necrons don't have cheese (Wraithspam isn't as viable as it used to be, the Decurion is restrictive, and we lack Psychic powers), and therefor will never completely dominate the tournament scene, where cheese and cheap exploitations is all that wins games. So why bother comparing Necrons, or any single army in itself (since it's mostly armies allied with other things, such as knights), to the competitive setting? Necrons alone have the most internal balance, and in a casual setting, or even a lower, friendly tournament scene, are very strong, if not too strong.

But, for the sake or argument, lets take a look at some of the things you listed, just for sheer fun.

Massed Flyrants/FMC daemons - Flyrants chuck out S6 shooting, but thats about it. Bring 2-3 Night Scythes and you shouldn't have much of an issue, as your infantry probably won't take too much damage over the course of the game from it. Also, Daemons typically do, what, fly around and cast psychic powers? Ignore them.
Wraithknights - Everything in our book can now hurt it. Literally. And the Destroyer Cult would shred through them.
Wave Serpents - They will do what, exactly, to Wraiths? Not a lot, especially is someone is bringing a ton of Tomb Blades with those Wraiths.
2+ save units - Heavy Destroyers are much more common now. Also, Riptides aren't a threat, they are completely ignorable. And broadsides aren't too difficult to get to run off the board.
Invisible Deathstars - Trying to figure out what Necrons would do against this is pointless, as what would anything do to this. This power should not exist in the game.
Daemon Summoning - From what I've seen, not really a huge threat in general. Are people still using this as a primary list idea in tournaments?
2+ Cover - Tomb Blades
Massed Bikers - Shoot them. Or Wraiths. Take your pick.
Another Decurion - I have to admit, that would be tough. I'm not sure how you'd deal with that. Guess it depends on who brought what.
Adlance Knights - Necrons have the tools to deal with these, as broken as it is. Would it be easy? Probably not. But certainly possible. Flank them and avoid shields. Boom.
Void Shields - Again, thats slowed that Gauss doesn't hurt it. I would just not even participate in a tournament if that was the case.
Fast Deathstars - TWC? Umm, Wraiths. I keep saying Wraiths because thats what people typically bring in competitive lists, but yes. Wraiths.
Shooty Deathstars - Necrons have plenty of tools for these, you just wouldn't see them in a competitive setting. That being said, Wraiths.

So, you might not think they're the most competitive, but they have answers to most, if not all of the things you listed. And once Eldar and Space Marines get toned down (yes, I'm that confident) we'll see a lot less of the stuff on that list.

 jy2 wrote:

Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)

Wraiths? They're pretty fast to get there, pretty durable to ignore what they can't touch and camp on objectives or tarpit what you don't want to get running around (invis stars without H&R or GoI), pretty killy to deal with the majority of what they might face and pretty cheap to bring them en masse yet have a place for other stuff.

But i see what you mean. The book has lots of toug units, yet it can get problematic to deal with certain things considered cheeze. And those are quite common in tournaments.

I'll tell you what is OP - Orikan w/ wraiths. 3++, 5 Tou, rerolling 1s on saves, 2 W each w/ the Spider formation giving them feel no pain.

I took several 10 Str AP 1 blasts and didn't lose a wraith.

 Mythra wrote:
I'll tell you what is OP - Orikan w/ wraiths. 3++, 5 Tou, rerolling 1s on saves, 2 W each w/ the Spider formation giving them feel no pain.

I took several 10 Str AP 1 blasts and didn't lose a wraith.

Why wraiths instead of lichguards?
Lichguards also get 5T 3++ and RP, but more attacks at AP3. They cost nearly than half harvest wraith, so you get the same number of wounds, but without the risk of loosing the RP.

The real plus of the wraiths is their tremendous mobility, but with Orikan is inside the unit...

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Icelord wrote:
Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.

Not against instant death. It'll become a 5+.

OMG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to beat up on a Decurion? Take some Whirlwinds and Heavy Bolters and laugh as they only ignore half your attacks instead of a quarter of them, and you have far more attacks than you've ever thrown before.

Yeah heavy bolters do real good against necrons. Land speeders with HB and typhoon missile is great. Thunder fire cannon also great. Vindicators - not a bad idea ether. Still though, decrion still gets saves against these things...pretty insane.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "if someone is asking if it's too powerful, then it likely is."

I don't see how anyone can defend an army of 4+ feel no pain saves that can't be negated at all. Let alone when that army has relentless (on everything) and weapons that on a roll of 6 can become insanely better (on more or less everything).

Necrons in my mind are top dog in the game, bar none.
Its all down to survival, you can't reliably lost them, therefore why worry about being in dangerous situations.

Average table size 6'x4' average army size 1500-1850.
Mostly an army is going to be able to cover the entire table over 5 turns.
how exactly are you going to play to objectives?

I play against it nearly every week, still to beat it... Because crons are slow i get alot of draws in objective games. imo its very very good, will take even the best lists close and can often come out on top! Kicks my poor CSM into the ground though! :(

Alcibiades wrote:
Isn't that what Carnival of Pain is, the Dark Eldar Coven one?

How do that, the Decurion, and the Khorne one compare to each other? Has anybody tried running them against each other?

The DE one is nice, lots and lots of benefits. The problem is it buffs a niche fluffy army that isnt very good to start with. It also comes out costing over 2500 points IIRC.

 Toofast wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.

I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.

After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.

I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.

That doesn't even require play testing - just requires basic math skills.

Boniface wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "if someone is asking if it's too powerful, then it likely is."

I don't see how anyone can defend an army of 4+ feel no pain saves that can't be negated at all. Let alone when that army has relentless (on everything) and weapons that on a roll of 6 can become insanely better (on more or less everything).

Necrons in my mind are top dog in the game, bar none.
Its all down to survival, you can't reliably lost them, therefore why worry about being in dangerous situations.

Average table size 6'x4' average army size 1500-1850.
Mostly an army is going to be able to cover the entire table over 5 turns.
how exactly are you going to play to objectives?

Just use more bullets instead of better bullets. Honestly, forcing people to do that is why this codex was written how it is.