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Made in ca
Sneaky Kommando





tag8833 wrote:
The FAQ doesn't affect multi-charges. Check it out: http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

Changes on page 46 (single assaults), not 54 (multi assaults) Only single charges allow for breaking coherence. If you can't charge both units and stay in coherence, you fail the charge via this line: "Remember that the Charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this (multi-assaults) type of charge."

You make the common mistake of applying the FAQ to a place that it explicitly doesn't apply. It replaces a bullet point on page 46, but make no changes on page 54 which is where multi-assaults are limited.
I think you misunderstand me, so let me clarify what I mean. Prior to the FAQ, each model had to end its move in coherency with a model that had already moved. The only way to multi-charge under these circumstances would be if there was a second enemy unit close enough that you could have charged it and still been in unit coherency with a model that has already moved to charge the first unit. The FAQ relaxes the requirement that a model be in unit coherency with a model that has already moved. You can now charge the second unit without having to be in unit coherency with a model that has already charged the first unit, so long as at the end, after all models have moved, the unit has coherency.

To be clear, I agree that the FAQ does not replace the requirement that the unit be in coherency at the end of the charge move.

If my Green Tide charges two enemy units, A and B, I move model 1 into base contact with unit A, and model 2, which cannot reach unit A, moves into base contact with unit B. Model 2 does not need to be in unit coherency with model 1 and both charges succeed, if and only if after moving all other models in the unit there is no gap greater than 2" between different parts of the unit.

Prior to the FAQ, it would not have been possible to move model 2 into base contact with unit B if this put model 2 more than 2" away from model 1.

Once the charge is complete and the pile-in moves start, there is no requirement that the unit remain in coherency.

If my interpretation is mistaken, could you point out which part I am wrong about? Your explanation seems to presume that I take the FAQ as overwriting the rule on page 54, which is not the case. I agree that this rule still applies.

In practice, in a Tide with 100+ bodies, I've never had a problem finishing in some kind of coherency; the pre-FAQ wording meant that by spreading out sufficiently your opponent could ensure that you could only charge one unit at a time, severely restricting the utility of the Tide.

Blood rains down from an angry sky, my WAAAGH! rages on, my WAAAGH! rages on! 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver



On the back of a hog.

Enough about charges. I second the call for anti-Eldar tactics. What's an ork to do against that BS?
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





I tried a Big Mek with this loadout today:
Big Mek- Bike, MFF, BBP- 155.
I put him in a squad of Boyz that was near my vehicles, and he is really good, I also made sure he was in range of my grot screen (though I probably didn't need a screen as they got the same saves). He makes a little bubble of protection that essentially doubles the value or your models. He also grants fearless, and can jet around on his bike to get where he's needed. I really like this guy and think he has a place in competitive lists (especially lists with lots of vehicles, because 4++ on vehicles is insane!).

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Budzerker wrote:
Enough about charges. I second the call for anti-Eldar tactics. What's an ork to do against that BS?


What in particular ?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Bigger gunz works for me

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I tried a Big Mek with this loadout today:
Big Mek- Bike, MFF, BBP- 155.
I put him in a squad of Boyz that was near my vehicles, and he is really good, I also made sure he was in range of my grot screen (though I probably didn't need a screen as they got the same saves). He makes a little bubble of protection that essentially doubles the value or your models. He also grants fearless, and can jet around on his bike to get where he's needed. I really like this guy and think he has a place in competitive lists (especially lists with lots of vehicles, because 4++ on vehicles is insane!).


How did you get two relics on the same HQ?
   
Made in dk
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Out in the country in Denmark. Zealand

Melevolence wrote:
 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I tried a Big Mek with this loadout today:
Big Mek- Bike, MFF, BBP- 155.
I put him in a squad of Boyz that was near my vehicles, and he is really good, I also made sure he was in range of my grot screen (though I probably didn't need a screen as they got the same saves). He makes a little bubble of protection that essentially doubles the value or your models. He also grants fearless, and can jet around on his bike to get where he's needed. I really like this guy and think he has a place in competitive lists (especially lists with lots of vehicles, because 4++ on vehicles is insane!).


How did you get two relics on the same HQ?


Because those relics are from the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement. A character can take any amount of relics from the list in that book.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

 big mek crazygit wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I tried a Big Mek with this loadout today:
Big Mek- Bike, MFF, BBP- 155.
I put him in a squad of Boyz that was near my vehicles, and he is really good, I also made sure he was in range of my grot screen (though I probably didn't need a screen as they got the same saves). He makes a little bubble of protection that essentially doubles the value or your models. He also grants fearless, and can jet around on his bike to get where he's needed. I really like this guy and think he has a place in competitive lists (especially lists with lots of vehicles, because 4++ on vehicles is insane!).


How did you get two relics on the same HQ?


Because those relics are from the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement. A character can take any amount of relics from the list in that book.


Ah, this debate again. Man, Gw really does gotta get on that FAQ, don't they?
   
Made in dk
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Out in the country in Denmark. Zealand

Melevolence wrote:
Ah, this debate again. Man, Gw really does gotta get on that FAQ, don't they?


What debate? The relics from the Ork Codex says that you're only allowed to pick one of the relics from that one, while the list in the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement says you're allowed to take as many as you like.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Melevolence wrote:
 big mek crazygit wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I tried a Big Mek with this loadout today:
Big Mek- Bike, MFF, BBP- 155.
I put him in a squad of Boyz that was near my vehicles, and he is really good, I also made sure he was in range of my grot screen (though I probably didn't need a screen as they got the same saves). He makes a little bubble of protection that essentially doubles the value or your models. He also grants fearless, and can jet around on his bike to get where he's needed. I really like this guy and think he has a place in competitive lists (especially lists with lots of vehicles, because 4++ on vehicles is insane!).


How did you get two relics on the same HQ?


Because those relics are from the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement. A character can take any amount of relics from the list in that book.


Ah, this debate again. Man, Gw really does gotta get on that FAQ, don't they?




There really is no debate about it.

Its just like the situation with a Mek being an HQ.

If Games Workshop isn't going to give a response on it you just have to go with what you assume it is till better information or a better resolution can be obtained.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

 big mek crazygit wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
Ah, this debate again. Man, Gw really does gotta get on that FAQ, don't they?


What debate? The relics from the Ork Codex says that you're only allowed to pick one of the relics from that one, while the list in the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement says you're allowed to take as many as you like.


It doesn't actually say "take as many as you like". The debate is if the book is supposed to follow the same rule as the main codex. But, we will never know as GW takes their time (if they do it at all) in making FAQ. There is little to no reason why they'd restrict the main book, but allow the supp to throw that restriction out the window. It's just general bad rule writing. I honestly don't care either way, but what I do care about is consistency. And we don't have it.

RAW, it seems possible to do so.
RAI, I'd lean it's supposed to follow the main book.

I'd let other Ork players run multiple relics via W!:G sup, but I won't. Handicap? Maybe. But I'd rather stay consistent throughout. I suppose we'll see what happens with wording when Eldar get their inevitable supplement, if they even have the same base restriction they've been doing to the current books.
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





There is a situation with Meks being HQs?
They are HQs... You get them outside FOC if you bring a non Mek HQ... Why was there a debate about that?

Warboss Troil
"Less chat, more splat!" 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

FratHammer wrote:
There is a situation with Meks being HQs?
They are HQs... You get them outside FOC if you bring a non Mek HQ... Why was there a debate about that?


The debate was a slight misconstrue of the rules. For a while, it was thought mini Meks could be brought as a regular HQ choice, but could also be chosen as slotless HQs if you brought regular HQs.

For example, if you took the Ork Hoard detach, some thought you could take:

Mek
Warboss
-slotless Mek
Big Mek
-slotless Mek
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




FratHammer wrote:
There is a situation with Meks being HQs?
They are HQs... You get them outside FOC if you bring a non Mek HQ... Why was there a debate about that?


Some people claim that you can have FOC Meks as your HQs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 17:26:00


 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Melevolence wrote:
FratHammer wrote:
There is a situation with Meks being HQs?
They are HQs... You get them outside FOC if you bring a non Mek HQ... Why was there a debate about that?


The debate was a slight misconstrue of the rules. For a while, it was thought mini Meks could be brought as a regular HQ choice, but could also be chosen as slotless HQs if you brought regular HQs.

For example, if you took the Ork Hoard detach, some thought you could take:

Mek
Warboss
-slotless Mek
Big Mek
-slotless Mek

I started a 7 page thread on that topic .
Here's a link if you want to see:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613989.page
It was eventually decided by the majority that they were allowed to select a mini-Mek as an HQ, so not a misconstrue of the rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/10 17:28:26


For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




So how well would a list consisting of Grot Tanks, Buggies, Bikes and Mega-Armor Characters foot slogging Guns around to fire work for objective based games ?

Would it have much staying power or is it something that can be swept away too easily ?
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Grot Snipa





The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how well would a list consisting of Grot Tanks, Buggies, Bikes and Mega-Armor Characters foot slogging Guns around to fire work for objective based games ?

Would it have much staying power or is it something that can be swept away too easily ?


I think Grot tanks could be very useful with the current dex. I mean they are effectively faster moving killakanz (minus the combat bit!). they also have a 5++. The commanda gets dual weapons too. I think you'd want to bring a good few mobs of em. Really saturate the targets. With both buggies and tanks rolling around you've got some great fire power. TL rokkits on buggies for opening up armour while grot tanks use grotzookas to blast apart infantry.

Id take zhansnark for troop bikers, although then you can't bring mek gunz. But personally plenty of rokkit buggies will make up for that.
Or;
Take bikes and bikerboss, then use grots as troops, while bringing mek gunz, with a Big Mek with MA with the gunz for the SnP stuff. Use the grots to bubble wrap the mek gunz, provide a cover save and also cap objectives. Personally I think making the objectives central could be useful. Buggies and grot tanks flanking shooting into the centre, while the mek gunz lay down the plasma.

Favourite Game: When your Warboss on bike wrecks 3 vehicles simply by HoW - especially when his bike is a custom monowheel.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Solar Shock wrote:
The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how well would a list consisting of Grot Tanks, Buggies, Bikes and Mega-Armor Characters foot slogging Guns around to fire work for objective based games ?

Would it have much staying power or is it something that can be swept away too easily ?


I think Grot tanks could be very useful with the current dex. I mean they are effectively faster moving killakanz (minus the combat bit!). they also have a 5++. The commanda gets dual weapons too. I think you'd want to bring a good few mobs of em. Really saturate the targets. With both buggies and tanks rolling around you've got some great fire power. TL rokkits on buggies for opening up armour while grot tanks use grotzookas to blast apart infantry.

Id take zhansnark for troop bikers, although then you can't bring mek gunz. But personally plenty of rokkit buggies will make up for that.
Or;
Take bikes and bikerboss, then use grots as troops, while bringing mek gunz, with a Big Mek with MA with the gunz for the SnP stuff. Use the grots to bubble wrap the mek gunz, provide a cover save and also cap objectives. Personally I think making the objectives central could be useful. Buggies and grot tanks flanking shooting into the centre, while the mek gunz lay down the plasma.



Though it probably shouldn't be and needs to be FAQ'd, you can actually take Mek Gunz with Zhadsnark.

The stipulation on him was for Big Gunz.

Since Big Gunz no longer exist you could (in theory) get away with using Mek Gunz alongside him (despite this breaking the theme of Zhadsnark not favoring slow moving and static gunlines).


That being said I'd rather go with the Biker Warboss or just include Zhadsnark as a separate CAD (assuming that doesn't violate his restriction on artillery).


Also could you use the Grot Tanks or Buggies to Tank Shock enemy units off of Objectives ?
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





How big are Grot Tanks if you're gonna convert them our of something?

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
How big are Grot Tanks if you're gonna convert them our of something?


Is this good for size scaling (keep in mind they can be smaller) ?:





And for the Mega Tank:

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/10 21:17:55


 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





And those are in the Kastorel Novem IA8 book right?

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





Yeah...i don't know how people thought you couldn't...i suppose if they didn't ever play SM or read the SM codex... Or if they read the rule wrong... But it took 7 pages for people to read correctly... That makes me kinda sad inside.

Warboss Troil
"Less chat, more splat!" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
And those are in the Kastorel Novem IA8 book right?


Yes.

They are also in the Dredmob Update from Forge World which has the most current rules for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I will admit about Grot Tanks.

6 of them armed with Grotzookas, one with Kommanda, have the potential for 14 Blasts a shooting phase.

The Mega Tank (which is unlocked by the Grot Tanks) has some impressive firepower as well.

I think both also get a 5++ against all attacks that aren't Destroyer or Ordinance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/11 01:44:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

Budzerker wrote:
Enough about charges. I second the call for anti-Eldar tactics. What's an ork to do against that BS?

Eldar have more S6 shooting than any army ever in history. My suggestion is we use AV 13 against them.

Spoiler:
Ork CAD
Warboss ('Eavy Armor, PK, BP) <- Warlord for Waaaagh

8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas

10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

9 Lootas
9 Lootas
9 Lootas

Ork Great Waaagh
Painboy

8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas

10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

3 Gunwagons (2 boarding planks) <- Tankbustas #1
3 Gunwagons (2 boarding planks) <- Tankbustas #2
3 Gunwagons <- Lootas

Sure the wraith Knight can pop a wagon a turn on average, but there are lots of them, and when the opportunity presents itself several groups of tankbustas can meltabomb him to death with the warboss throwing in if possible. Not sure if anyone has 9 gunwagons yet. I'm only at 4 myself, but I will get there eventually.


Ork options against newdar are going to be very, very limited I fear. At least so long as you are playing in a meta that doesn't make any nerfs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/10 23:45:31


 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





tag8833 wrote:
Budzerker wrote:
Enough about charges. I second the call for anti-Eldar tactics. What's an ork to do against that BS?

Eldar have more S6 shooting than any army ever in history. My suggestion is we use AV 13 against them.

Spoiler:
Ork CAD
Warboss ('Eavy Armor, PK, BP) <- Warlord for Waaaagh

8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas

10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

9 Lootas
9 Lootas
9 Lootas

Ork Great Waaagh
Painboy

8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas
8 Tankbustas

10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

3 Gunwagons (2 boarding planks) <- Tankbustas #1
3 Gunwagons (2 boarding planks) <- Tankbustas #2
3 Gunwagons <- Lootas

Sure the wraith Knight can pop a wagon a turn on average, but there are lots of them, and when the opportunity presents itself several groups of tankbustas can meltabomb him to death with the warboss throwing in if possible. Not sure if anyone has 9 gunwagons yet. I'm only at 4 myself, but I will get there eventually.


Ork options against newdar are going to be very, very limited I fear. At least so long as you are playing in a meta that doesn't make any nerfs.

What model do you use to play as a gunwagon? Forgeworld stopped selling that model I don't know what it looks like.

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
What model do you use to play as a gunwagon? Forgeworld stopped selling that model I don't know what it looks like.


It looks something like this.



   
Made in ca
Sneaky Kommando





One thing we've got for dealing with scatterbikes is 'ard boyz. A green tide consists of 10 separate units, so you could give only some of them 'eavy armour, no? Paying 120 pts to give your tide a 4+ save for the first 30 models might not be bad. Putting 'eavy armour on 20 boyz would be slightly cheaper than a KFF mek, and with FNP you'd save 2/3 wounds. 40 shots at s6 and BS4 is 27 hits, 23 wounds, 12 failed saves, and 8 failed FNP rolls. So losing 8 boyz in a tide to ten bikes shooting is nothing.

Bikerz with a painboy should be good as well; T5 so only wounded on a 3+, with a 3+ jink/cover save if they turboboost and FNP will lose a model to every 10 shots at BS4.

Lobbas will be handy for putting wounds on smaller units that try to hide in terrain. Kannons and KMKs could make them jink. Lootas will kill a small unit if they can see them.

I think the trouble with relying on AV is going to be that in practice bikes are maneuverable enough to hit side armour a lot of the time. I foresee scatterbikes coming in units of 3-5 zipping around, using terrain and hitting vehicles where they're vulnerable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 05:17:07


Blood rains down from an angry sky, my WAAAGH! rages on, my WAAAGH! rages on! 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Thanks for all the helpful pictures!
Could you maybe put them in spoilers though? It is very inconvenient to have the zoom messed up...

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Problem with Zhandsnark, is that its his warlord trait which grants bike troops and disables big gunz. So in effect you can't bring him in a second CAD. I suppose you could make him primary though? Although it does state he doesn't allow big gunz in the 'army' and not detachment I believe. I think its a little iffy.

Against Scat bikes, personally I think upgrading to big trakks or gunwagons would seriously help. Atleast that way they are looking at AV12 or 13 on front. As trukks are going to be torn apart.

Favourite Game: When your Warboss on bike wrecks 3 vehicles simply by HoW - especially when his bike is a custom monowheel.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Solar Shock wrote:
Problem with Zhandsnark, is that its his warlord trait which grants bike troops and disables big gunz. So in effect you can't bring him in a second CAD. I suppose you could make him primary though? Although it does state he doesn't allow big gunz in the 'army' and not detachment I believe. I think its a little iffy.

Against Scat bikes, personally I think upgrading to big trakks or gunwagons would seriously help. Atleast that way they are looking at AV12 or 13 on front. As trukks are going to be torn apart.


Actually due to the odd rules for the moment you can run artillery alongside Zhardsnark.

Big Gunz no longer exist.

They are Mek Gunz now.

And there is no restriction against Mek Gunz in Zhardsnark's profile (though Forge World will probably correct that in the future).

   
 
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