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tag8833 wrote:
How do you beat Space Marine Battle Company with Orks?

Spoiler:

I normally run Mech Orks with Battle Wagons and Gun Wagons with a couple squads of boyz, and the rest Tankbustas + max solo deff Koptas for msu scoring.

Other ideas I can run are up to 10 KMKs, Green Tide, a MANZ missile, or a Kustom Battle Fortress.

This is the list I was considering.

CAD #1
Warboss (EA, DFK, PK) <- Warlord
Painboy

5 Tankbustas (Bomb Squig) in a Trukk (Ram)
5 Tankbustas (Bomb Squig) in a Trukk (Ram)

17 Boyz + Nob (PK, BP)
Gretchin

Deff Kopta (Rokkit)
Deff Kopta (Rokkit)
Deff Kopta (Rokkit)

Battlewagon (Ram, Rokkit)
5 Lootas
5 Lobbas (5 Ammo Runts)

Void Shield Generator (3 Void Shields, Barricade)

Cad #2
Warboss (EA, DLS, PK)
Painboy

5 Tankbustas (2 Bomb Squigs) in a Trukk (Ram)
5 Tankbustas (Bomb Squig) in a Trukk (Ram)

17 Boyz + Nob (PK, BP)
Gretchin

Deff Kopta (Rokkit)
Deff Kopta (Rokkit)

Battlewagon (Ram, Rokkit)
5 Lootas


The VSG hopefully keeps my Battle Wagons alive for 1 turn, and if need be I will deploy outside the wagons to prevent drop podding inside the VSG range.

A warboss + painboy inside each wagon with boyz. I'm hoping for +1 to seize or Stealth in Ruins, but Master of Ambush lets me outflank Tankbusta Trukks, which can be good.

I'm generally going to be hemorrhaging units, but feel like I have enough that I can tolerate that, and I feel like I will have better overall board control which should put me in position to win. What do you guys think?

I smashed battle company. 5 Drop Pods + 8 Razorbacks (2 Las Cannon, 6 Assault Cannon). I didn't quite table him. He still had 2 Razor Backs (One healthy, one with no gun), 1 Drop Pod, 4 Tac Marines, and 1 Assault marine left on turn 5, but it was an easier game than I expected. He gunlined up, and I was able to take and hold board control. Hit and Run allowed him to get to the Lobbas in my backfield, but not until after they killed 2 Squads of sternguard, and 4 Tac Marines. Using various doctrines he was able to eliminate one of my squads of boyz + my warboss and painboy, but the other squad lasted the whole game and swept up in his backfield. Solo Deff Koptas are awesome. He was loaded with grav and Melta. The VSG ate the melta, and the Grav doesn't help when you have 20 Ork Boyz in your face.

What do you load your deff koptas with? rokkits? saws?

 Frozocrone wrote:
Same IA book as Kustom Stompa, don't believe they were updated though. IA11 with Eldar is the hype at the minute.

I think Forge World said they didn't have any plans on revisiting IA8.

 Billagio wrote:
What do you load your deff koptas with? rokkits? saws?

Rokkits. Only Rokkits. Keep them cheap. Use them to claim objectives, tarpit, eat overwatch and take potshots at things.

Their damage potential isn't what makes them great. It is their mobility, and survivability. But the Rokkit makes then a serious enough threat that sometimes you can convince someone to Jink by firing a single Rokkit at them, and you can use it to snipe out special weapons sometimes.

I have a million stories of solo deff koptas becoming heroes. The time they moved 36" to contest an objective. The time 2 of them tarpit a burstide for 3 turns. The time one killed a unit of longfangs by winning combat and making them run off the board. The time I joined a painboy to one deff kopta and swept a unit of Conscripts. So many stories of them winning me games. They don't do much killing stuff by they score alot, and they win games.

tag8833 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
What do you load your deff koptas with? rokkits? saws?

Rokkits. Only Rokkits. Keep them cheap. Use them to claim objectives, tarpit, eat overwatch and take potshots at things.

Their damage potential isn't what makes them great. It is their mobility, and survivability. But the Rokkit makes then a serious enough threat that sometimes you can convince someone to Jink by firing a single Rokkit at them, and you can use it to snipe out special weapons sometimes.

I have a million stories of solo deff koptas becoming heroes. The time they moved 36" to contest an objective. The time 2 of them tarpit a burstide for 3 turns. The time one killed a unit of longfangs by winning combat and making them run off the board. The time I joined a painboy to one deff kopta and swept a unit of Conscripts. So many stories of them winning me games. They don't do much killing stuff by they score alot, and they win games.

Also, rokkit koptas are super-cheap distraction carnifexes. Put it near any unit that might otherwise shoot the boyz. Scout + turbo-boost gives you effective 48" on turn 1.

Rokkit's on Koptas always, unless you just want it for Overwatch purposes in which case Big Shoota so it won't get shot at (but really Rokkits are free, why would you not!)

Seen the new Tidewall...I'm going to have to get my Lobbas up and running

Maybe a few Burnabommas too, depending on what my opponent puts on the wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Same IA book as Kustom Stompa, don't believe they were updated though. IA11 with Eldar is the hype at the minute.

I think Forge World said they didn't have any plans on revisiting IA8.

Bummer.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Same IA book as Kustom Stompa, don't believe they were updated though. IA11 with Eldar is the hype at the minute.

I think Forge World said they didn't have any plans on revisiting IA8.

The last time I talked to someone at FW, I asked and they said it was on the schedule to be updated. Could not confirm if it would be a book or FAQ. Fingers crossed its a book, because the IA:8 is not on their website right now.

Speaking of IA8, what do people think of the Kistom Meka/Mega Dread combo? I have a scratchbuilt Mega I've never used before and am thinking about making a Kustom Meka. Has anyone used them before? I like the idea of being able to have a big KFF bubble feom the Kustom Meka, on the scale of a Morkanaut but without paying that much in points/cash.

Similarly, I'm playing with the idea of using a Big Mek on a bike w/KFF in blobs of boyz for the bigger bubble. It's a bit more points efficient than the Kustom Meka but you don't get as big a bubble or the cc oomph. Plus you are required to take a Mega to unlock it. But I think in certain boyz-heavy footslog cc lists it'd be worth it? Plus look epic and intimidating on the table.

So Killsaws. Those are awesome. And you can actually pull off getting quite a few in a list.

Anyone talked abut this?

 Jancoran wrote:
So Killsaws. Those are awesome. And you can actually pull off getting quite a few in a list.

Anyone talked abut this?

Yes.

But they're a little bit expensive on Meks.

 Jancoran wrote:
So Killsaws. Those are awesome. And you can actually pull off getting quite a few in a list.

Anyone talked abut this?

Always have one for MANz.

expensive maybe but orks kinda need the Armourbane.

I love Tankbustas for that reason. Throw enough Meltabombs at something and it will go down, especially with Tankhuntas.

MANz can afford it, I have it on the Boss Nob just so I can LoS if need be. I ditch it for Bullyboyz though, enough attacks usually take down vehicles.

EDIT: Had a 1500 point game against Ravenguard today using the following list



Went first for the game.

First time using BikeStar and it did a serious shift in the game. Tanked everything and still came out on top, even after being charged by a unit of Infiltrators turn one (GW staff ruled even though I explained why I could charge in the previous turn as I had not scouted/infiltrated with a 5 man bike unit, but my opponent had). Too much overwatch to handle and the Warboss/Zhadsnark wrecked face, even when Shrike started causing wounds with Zealot/Shred AP3. Painboy was super important and the Big Bosspole was clutch. By far the best relic we have.

1 unit of bikes died first turn to the infiltrating charges. Other unit managed to wreck two land speeders.

Big Mek died to a snake-eyes S8 shot but moving up the Lootas into range of the whole board was good. Lootas performed decently, 4 on the D3 overall. Killed a few scouts but not much to shoot at (everything was in ruins with Shrouded so eh).

Tankbustas and Trukk were the bomb. First turn the Trukk moved up so the Tankbustas needed to snapshoot. 5 hits. Took out a landspeeder with MM. Next turn they moved up and snap shotted a IronClad. 5 hits. Took it out.Trukk wasn't shot at all, due to the BikeStar turn one in my opponents face.

Had to call time at the bottom of turn two and had lost in the overall battle that was occuring in the day but by turn two my opponent had a Stormtalon, Stormraven and one Scout. Still had all twelve Tankbustas, 12 Bikes, 12 Lootas and my Gretchin (they were in reserves for banter). Probably a turn three tabling, if not that I still had a large ground force.

 Jancoran wrote:
So Killsaws. Those are awesome. And you can actually pull off getting quite a few in a list.

Anyone talked abut this?

I have six old metal MANZ and 6 new plastic MANZ, all the new ones have killsaws.

Too many times in previous editions I've shot what I wanted to assault and killed it all. I've run 3, 6, and 9 MANZ in 7th (3 of them being the old ones) and never regretted taking as many Killsaws as possible. Armorbane and an extra attack are always welcome. Most of the time, with the larger mob, I'm multi-assaulting and losing the bonus so still having 4 attacks per makes a huge difference. I need to get 3 more new ones so I'll have 15 for the Bully Boyz formation. Fear, Fearless (their biggest issue), and WS5 is awesome. Plus free BW slots or Trukks if that's your thing.

I usually just run the standard MANz bomb in a looted wagon (I run two cads for HQs and generally end up with plenty of HS slots) and I only run one Killsaw. The other two I run as scorchas.

I find one of the big unrecognized buffs of 7th has been our superior power in engaging with 'ere we go, allowing us to bring some of our gnarlier non-assault weapons to bear before we charge. Too many ork players I see still forgoing shooting for trying to be sure to make a 6" charge. In general I've been running more shooting and psychic power and loading less into assault and I've been happier for it.

 Frozocrone wrote:

Went first for the game.

First time using BikeStar and it did a serious shift in the game. Tanked everything and still came out on top, even after being charged by a unit of Infiltrators turn one (GW staff ruled even though I explained why I could charge in the previous turn as I had not scouted/infiltrated with a 5 man bike unit, but my opponent had). Too much overwatch to handle and the Warboss/Zhadsnark wrecked face, even when Shrike started causing wounds with Zealot/Shred AP3. Painboy was super important and the Big Bosspole was clutch. By far the best relic we have.

1 unit of bikes died first turn to the infiltrating charges. Other unit managed to wreck two land speeders.

Wait, you got charged on turn 1 by a unit that Infiltrated? (or Scouted?) The main rulebook is pretty clear on the point that a unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. I think the same applies for Infiltrate. Is there some other codex/formation/unit-specific rule that allowed him to charge, or did the GW employee just decide he could? Regardless, it sounds like you did well and had fun, so congrats.

GW employee decided he could.

His argument was that I had charged with my unit first turn. Problem was that this was a small bike unit that had not Infiltrated or Scouted, but due to my opponent Infiltrating was close enough to get a T1 charge, which wasn't my fault.

Got the rules out and proved my point and was ruled against me (probably because I don't attend regulary due to uni work).

Still, I was happy with how the list performed. Making some changes to it though and going to try and get a list ready that doesn't use FW (the campaign at the minute makes you unbound if you use FW, which defeats the point of Zhadsnark really).

Tankbustas really are amazeballs. They've killed an Iron Clad and Landspeeder Storm through shooting alone, no Bomb Squigs whatsoever (rolled hot there) and did 6 HP to AV15 building with Bombs (forget the name, but basically same employee as above made me roll to hit, which is the complete opposite of the rules. Would have destroyed it through glances alone had I autohit). And this is only with the one unit of 12 w/ Trukk that I have run in the two games that I've started to use them!!

Side note - there is a Raven Guard formation that allows assault from DS (not Skyhammer, it's the new one, Solaq Strike Force I think?). Don't think there is any for Infiltrate though.

It was great though I have so much fun with Orks these days, I think I will take them home with me when I go back for a week (then again luggage, aha)

Well, this guy is obviously a cheater. He was even handled the rules yet chose to make up his own that favored him greatly.

I feel sorry for him,

losing even when your cheating must be a bummer

Hey all. So, the received wisdom, at least as far as I've seen on the internet, seems to be that Lootas are a much better shout than Flash Gitz in almost all circumstances. I got a bit bored and did some maths – seems 5 gitz (110 points) are a lot more effective at shooting up any kind of infantry (up to and including Marines) than 8 Lootas (112 points) are. Really it seems a toss-up between effectiveness against infantry, better assault, a couple more wounds and increased mobility (Gitz) and range, usefulness against medium vehicles and ability to get a cheaper min-size unit (Lootas). I dunno if this comes as news to anyone, but I was just a little surprised to see it wasn't such a cut and dried obvious win for the Lootas.

I've not been using Lootas much at all since the new codex, Flash Gitz are better at anti-infantry and Tankbustas are better at shooting vehicles. Lootas can do a bit of both which has merit in certain lists but I struggle to find a place for them in my mobile armies and prefer to hold backfield objectives with the more resiliant Mek Gunz. Not having access to a Nob and bosspole is another huge downside and too many times have I seen a Heldrake vector strike one unit and flamer the other and make both run off the board

I still use my lootas quit a bit. I have flashgitz and I hardly use them. Mainly They come out during apoc and just run around on the table in a kustom battle fortress known as da ship!

Lootas still do AA quite well with the volume of shots they can fire upwards.

I tend to use:
Tankbustas/PK for medium/heavy vehicles
Lootas for flyers and light vehicles

I'm slowly shifting them out as they are quite static (or at least, large units of Lootas, my most current 1500 has 2x5 units. No Nob upgrade hurts them, so I have to babysit with a Big Mek for large units (and that's points not spent on faster units!)

 Nazrak wrote:
Hey all. So, the received wisdom, at least as far as I've seen on the internet, seems to be that Lootas are a much better shout than Flash Gitz in almost all circumstances. I got a bit bored and did some maths – seems 5 gitz (110 points) are a lot more effective at shooting up any kind of infantry (up to and including Marines) than 8 Lootas (112 points) are. Really it seems a toss-up between effectiveness against infantry, better assault, a couple more wounds and increased mobility (Gitz) and range, usefulness against medium vehicles and ability to get a cheaper min-size unit (Lootas). I dunno if this comes as news to anyone, but I was just a little surprised to see it wasn't such a cut and dried obvious win for the Lootas.

Your right, on paper they aren't much different with what they can accomplish. But in game I find huge differences. Plus a few issues with your thought trains;

A 110 unit walking, aren't going to be in range T1 nor in their 'optimum' position T2. Which means they have a 'minimum' transport cost of 30 points or more. Meaning that an effective comparison would more likely be 150 points of lootas VS 110 Gitz.

Once inside a transport they then become more fragile, where an explodes result will likely cause a few wounds/dead gitz, compared with the fact that the lootas likely would have a 5+ cover most of the game.

Gitz, while equally capable of shooting down infantry are at a much higher threat of assault or being shot off the table. There 24" range opens them up to the enemy and not just his ranged support or him sending a specified unit to deal with your backline

You are certainly right about a few things, but the problem with mathhammer is it doesn't include board setup and actual gameplay. In game my thoughts have been;

lootas have always made their points back - heck in my last 2 games in which the enemy could nominate 1 unit of mine and give them 'gets hot' (surprised he gave it to my lootas?? no I wasn't either) the lootas have not only killed more of themselves than the enemy did, they still managed to deal tremendous amounts of pain, turn 1 killing a forgefiend, opening up 2-3 harle vehicles... etc.

Gitz can mow down infantry and are still useful in the assault- being Nobz and all

loota range is just fantastic for helping dictate setup - aka, getting a nice killing field can make your opponent deploy quite predictably (while often making it hard for your lootas to shoot anything, they open themselves up to earlier charges or your seeming 'less' killy units.

Lootas once dying will run and never return

Gitz will stick about longer, but more than likely gimp themselves - aka they take a mob rule check, kill another git and all of a sudden your 5 man unit is a 2 man unit. which is an extra 1/3rd off your offensive ability.

overall, ive had great experiences with both, with that many dice both of them have the potential for absolutely rolls. Lootas I like because 'deploy and fire', gitz I like to roll around in squadroned vehicles (for added protection) and just pumping out fire, with the gitz acting as support.

Personally I don't think gitz have had enough experimentation, I want to use them more as assault back-up to shoota units. But overall both have merits, but IMO lootas are the 'easier to use' of the two. Deploy. Aim. FIRE!

Not to mention that Warbikers can do S5 better due to speed/TL/Jink.

Also Mek Gunz (which make Flash Gitz an even harder choice to choose, since in the same slot you can take Lobbas for the S5 Barrage or KMK for the AP2).

Also to Solar Shock and koooeai, there was a sense of 'still pulled it off' going on in my head as I won Comments were thrown that it would have been a different game had they gone AM.

Currently building up my Trukks for the Speed Freaks though, so unsure Still fun.

I think all Orks need is the ability to out-number Space Marine and Eldar units by 3:1. So make mobs able to buy multiple units of 10, rather than big mobs of 30. MSU is the way to go to make hordes competitive in 40k.

I run Gitz in nearly every Blitz Brigade style list I run. The ability to turn 1 camp a ruins (mork bless 12" scout) in a battlewagon and shoot at BS3 at 3+ armor (which they have a 50% of ignoring their armor) is great. Gitz are definitely not optimum units but they kind of fill a jack of all trades role of being a shooty mid range unit that isn't half bad in close combat against non melee focused units (shoota boyz on steroids). While the dream of melting 2+ armor is nice, they tend to be more reliable at killing 3+ armor which means they make MEQs cry and can make a lot of bikers jink or risk having their unit mulched by a good AP roll. Gitz also have great synergy with a Killkannon as they both have similar range, the capacity drop from the Killkannon is a non issue, and they work well as providing much needed armor piercing dakka. Definitely not a tournament caliber unit but they are fun and in the right list can be very effective. Also players tend to not get salty (or don't have much of a leg to stand on when complaining) from getting smashed by Da Boyz n Green when the list includes Flash Gitz

Well, good to know I'm not automatically an idiot for wanting to use Gitz. Can't see myself entering any tournaments any time soon so I reckon I'll just crack on and see what happens.

The main problem with Gitz is that it is hard to get them into optimal firing position. Lootas are set up and shoot, while Gitz take a lot more work to get into firing position. One good tactic that seems viable with Flash Gitz is to give some of them ammo runts for the times when they roll really good AP. Makes it so the good shots aren't wasted.

What are your thoughts on allying Orks with Skitarii or Ad Mech? I love my Orks, but I do like the look of the Skitarii minis and I've been tempted to pick them up. They are IoM and could only ally as Come the Apocalypse, however I could see parking a unit of Skitarii Rangers or maybe Vangard on an objective and picking off units that got too close. One of the doctrines gives BS+3, right? Orks can't even hope to achieve that kind of accuracy.