Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!

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**col_impact**

I run the Big Mek Stompa with

1) a unit of 10 gretchin (+1 runtherd) with Objective Secured to make the Stompa footprint Objective Secured.

2) a unit of Lootas with 3 Meks (14 points per repair roll is a steal)

3) a Big Mek with MFF (4++ invul vs shooting is the only way to go)

That is 5 repair rolls

I arm him with double D and the Deff Cannon and try to have him shoot and assault every turn and head him straight at the key objective to secure it with Objective Secured Stompa.

**tag8833**

I am really dubious about the MFF in a competitive game. Not only does it cost more, but there is a giant tax on it.

1) You've either got 2 non-OS squads of gretchin or some Ork running around with a really bad Mob rule table. Also some Elites that have sucky mob rule.
2) You don't want to make the MFF holder you Warlord (no rerolls on Strategic), so it is easier for opponents to get to your warlord, unless you pay for another unit that rides the Stompa.

If you want to include a MFF in a Stompa list, I recommend a MFF on Bike (With Big Bosspole) Attached to a Z-diddle unit as protection against Tau and perfect timing. You can still protect the Stompa when you need to.

**Tibs Ironblood**

tag8833 wrote:
I am really dubious about the MFF in a competitive game. Not only does it cost more, but there is a giant tax on it.

1) You've either got 2 non-OS squads of gretchin or some Ork running around with a really bad Mob rule table. Also some Elites that have sucky mob rule.
2) You don't want to make the MFF holder you Warlord (no rerolls on Strategic), so it is easier for opponents to get to your warlord, unless you pay for another unit that rides the Stompa.

If you want to include a MFF in a Stompa list, I recommend a MFF on Bike (With Big Bosspole) Attached to a Z-diddle unit as protection against Tau and perfect timing. You can still protect the Stompa when you need to.

Cant you just take a CAD under WAAAAGGHHH Ghazy or an allied detachment? Pretty sure you can, but I could be wrong. Hope I am not though because I have done that several times now.

**blaktoof**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
I am really dubious about the MFF in a competitive game. Not only does it cost more, but there is a giant tax on it.

1) You've either got 2 non-OS squads of gretchin or some Ork running around with a really bad Mob rule table. Also some Elites that have sucky mob rule.
2) You don't want to make the MFF holder you Warlord (no rerolls on Strategic), so it is easier for opponents to get to your warlord, unless you pay for another unit that rides the Stompa.

If you want to include a MFF in a Stompa list, I recommend a MFF on Bike (With Big Bosspole) Attached to a Z-diddle unit as protection against Tau and perfect timing. You can still protect the Stompa when you need to.

Cant you just take a CAD under WAAAAGGHHH Ghazy or an allied detachment? Pretty sure you can, but I could be wrong. Hope I am not though because I have done that several times now.

Nope :(

**Tibs Ironblood**

Its a supplement same as say the Sentinels of Terra which can (to my knowledge) use Codex SM formations or be brought alongside them as a CAD or allied detachment. WAAAGGHHH Ghazy comes with its own rules and sets of formations, but I would still think it could be brought as a CAD or allied detachment due to how the rulebook says "The Following detachments can be included in any battle forged army." and then lists the CAD and allied detachments.

Now I would define each codex/supplement to be an army as thats how I understand it. If that is correct then you could taken WAAAGGHHH ghazy on its own as a CAD without having to use the general purpose formation it provides.

Again I could be totally wrong, but I was like so sure that was correct. If you disagree could you explain where I went wrong here?

**xlDuke**

I can't talk with any authority about supplements for other factions but in Waaagh! Ghazghkull check the 'Orkimedes Kustom Gubbinz' rule (page 48) which effectively says that in order to use any of the W!G relics you have to use a detachment from the W!G book. Its a shame because there are a few nice relics in there but the supplement special rules really suck

**Tibs Ironblood**

Oh ok so I must have overlooked that specific rule. So thats just to use the relics and not overall correct? So I could still bring an allied detachment of WAAGGHH ghazy, but I cant bring any of the relics correct?

**tag8833**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Oh ok so I must have overlooked that specific rule. So thats just to use the relics and not overall correct? So I could still bring an allied detachment of WAAGGHH ghazy, but I cant bring any of the relics correct?

The rules for the "Allied Detachment" say that it can't be from the same faction as the Primary Detachment. WAAGGH Ghazgul is the same faction as Codex: Orks. So in order to take an Allied detachment from WAAAGH ghazgul you must have a non-Ork Faction Warlord.

**cranect**

If your taking a stomps then the ghazzy supplement isn't bad if you are planning on putting meks inside. Just make your elites burna boyz. Also since I normally like to have two squads of gretchin for objective holding that's where I get them from.

**xlDuke**

tag8833 wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Oh ok so I must have overlooked that specific rule. So thats just to use the relics and not overall correct? So I could still bring an allied detachment of WAAGGHH ghazy, but I cant bring any of the relics correct?
The rules for the "Allied Detachment" say that it can't be from the same faction as the Primary Detachment. WAAGGH Ghazgul is the same faction as Codex: Orks. So in order to take an Allied detachment from WAAAGH ghazgul you must have a non-Ork Faction Warlord.

The W!G book only contains detachments (with relics to go with them) and not units. As I understand it you can't take an Allied Detachment of W!G but you could of course take any of the formations or the Great Waaagh detachment alongside any other detachments in your army, regardless of faction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cranect wrote:
If your taking a stomps then the ghazzy supplement isn't bad if you are planning on putting meks inside. Just make your elites burna boyz. Also since I normally like to have two squads of gretchin for objective holding that's where I get them from.

This is one of the only applications of the Great Waaagh detachment I can see, if you're taking two units of Grots anyway and you could make use of the different relics and extra elite slots and you don't want to take two CADs for some reason. If you're using Boyz as your troops in the Great Waaagh detachment its almost mandatory to take the Big Bosspole for one unit and Grotsnik for the other, because without Fearless those Boyz are going to beat themselves up until they run off the board. It melts my mind that it's a +2 on Mob Rule and not a -2.

**col_impact**

tag8833 wrote:
I am really dubious about the MFF in a competitive game. Not only does it cost more, but there is a giant tax on it.

1) You've either got 2 non-OS squads of gretchin or some Ork running around with a really bad Mob rule table. Also some Elites that have sucky mob rule.
2) You don't want to make the MFF holder you Warlord (no rerolls on Strategic), so it is easier for opponents to get to your warlord, unless you pay for another unit that rides the Stompa.

If you want to include a MFF in a Stompa list, I recommend a MFF on Bike (With Big Bosspole) Attached to a Z-diddle unit as protection against Tau and perfect timing. You can still protect the Stompa when you need to.

4++ is much much stronger than 5++. This is key to making the Stompa extremely hard to put down by any army. It cannot be recommended enough.

Mega-nobs prefer the Waaagghhh! Ghazghkull mob rule.

I run 3x3 meganobs in ram trukks and 2x5 tankbustas in ram trukks. I also run a VSG and a unit of 5 KMK mekguns. The VSG is a must-have for most Ork armies.

The army has been tested and it squashes Necron decurions.

**Tibs Ironblood**

tag8833 wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Oh ok so I must have overlooked that specific rule. So thats just to use the relics and not overall correct? So I could still bring an allied detachment of WAAGGHH ghazy, but I cant bring any of the relics correct?
The rules for the "Allied Detachment" say that it can't be from the same faction as the Primary Detachment. WAAGGH Ghazgul is the same faction as Codex: Orks. So in order to take an Allied detachment from WAAAGH ghazgul you must have a non-Ork Faction Warlord.

Oh ok thank you very much for the clarification!

**cranect**

col_impact wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
I am really dubious about the MFF in a competitive game. Not only does it cost more, but there is a giant tax on it.

1) You've either got 2 non-OS squads of gretchin or some Ork running around with a really bad Mob rule table. Also some Elites that have sucky mob rule.
2) You don't want to make the MFF holder you Warlord (no rerolls on Strategic), so it is easier for opponents to get to your warlord, unless you pay for another unit that rides the Stompa.

If you want to include a MFF in a Stompa list, I recommend a MFF on Bike (With Big Bosspole) Attached to a Z-diddle unit as protection against Tau and perfect timing. You can still protect the Stompa when you need to.

4++ is much much stronger than 5++. This is key to making the Stompa extremely hard to put down by any army. It cannot be recommended enough.

Mega-nobs prefer the Waaagghhh! Ghazghkull mob rule.

I run 3x3 meganobs in ram trukks and 2x5 tankbustas in ram trukks. I also run a VSG and a unit of 5 KMK mekguns. The VSG is a must-have for most Ork armies.

The army has been tested and it squashes Necron decurions.

why do meganobz prefer the ghazzy one? I would think that it would be worse since they are never going to have 10 guys in the squad. The +2 is only good for large hordes since then there isnt even a chance that youll run away until you have less than ten guys and no character. I think the ghazzy one helps out large mobs more than the main rulebook for this reason alone. Also its fun to try and deepstrike stuff for the hell of it. Also the ghazzy one is good if you can kill off a sergeant with your warboss and get the rerolls to wound. Situational but can be useful. I also like kommandos so this is a good way to take more of them. For the most part if you are taking the ghazzy detachment you probably want to footslog it since its mob rule makes them less likely to run. Also with extra troops and elites its practically made for it. Plus any deep striking you roll can be potentially helpful and at least gives you some more options. I like it personally. I dont use it a ton but it has its uses.

**tag8833**

cranect wrote:
If your taking a stomps then the ghazzy supplement isn't bad if you are planning on putting meks inside. Just make your elites burna boyz. Also since I normally like to have two squads of gretchin for objective holding that's where I get them from.

Yeah. Forgot about the Stompa projecting fearless. That makes it a bit better. Still not worth losing OS IMO, but much better than I thought at 1st.

col_impact wrote:
Mega-nobs prefer the Waaagghhh! Ghazghkull mob rule.

Why? They fail on everything but a 1 if they take a mob rule test. In a CAD they pass on a 2 or 3 and a 1 ,2, or 3 if they are in CC. So it seems like a Codex: Orks CAD is 2-3 times as good for MANZ. What am I missing?

**col_impact**

tag8833 wrote:
cranect wrote:
If your taking a stomps then the ghazzy supplement isn't bad if you are planning on putting meks inside. Just make your elites burna boyz. Also since I normally like to have two squads of gretchin for objective holding that's where I get them from.
Yeah. Forgot about the Stompa projecting fearless. That makes it a bit better. Still not worth losing OS IMO, but much better than I thought at 1st.

col_impact wrote:
Mega-nobs prefer the Waaagghhh! Ghazghkull mob rule.

Why? They fail on everything but a 1 if they take a mob rule test. In a CAD they pass on a 2 or 3 and a 1 ,2, or 3 if they are in CC. So it seems like a Codex: Orks CAD is 2-3 times as good for MANZ. What am I missing?

You are correct. You can use up the elite slot with a unit of Burna Boys (3 of them Meks) riding in the Big Mek Stompa.

**luke1705**

tag8833 wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
How necessary do you guys think that a VSG is? I'm trying to figure out what to put in my 1850 (thinking I may try a bike star with buzzgob's custom stompa)

Also, how to people keep that stompa alive? Do you just take a bunch of meks and throw them inside?
I've been working on these questions for myself quite a bit. I'm in the process of testing, but am still far from arriving at a definitive answer. This is my current thinking, and it could be wrong.

>>>How necessary do you guys think that a VSG is?
If you are using a green tide, or Trukks, or non-scouting battle wagons, it is a must for a competitive Ork list. If you aren't using those things, and / or are able to null deploy it becomes less critical. For instance if you are running a Stompa + Bikestar then you can probably do without it. The Stompa allows you to null deploy, and it comes with D6 power fields which are essentially void shields. Additionally, both of those units are aggressive units that are going to want to get to the opponent's deployment zone ASAP. Therefore, a VSG in your zone isn't helping very much.

>>>how to people keep that stompa alive?
This is to me, the biggest challenge of list building around a Big Mek Stompa. It is tempting to put 1,200 points into that one unit and make a magical unkillable stompa. That seems like an obvious way to lose games in a competitive meta. The issue is, some people will have an answer to the Stompa. And the people who have an answer for it, can probably kill it faster than you can repair it. For instance 5 fire dragons can kill a stompa in one turn provided the power fields are down. A Wraith Knight with a Sword can down it quickly if they get lucky. An Imperial Knight can kill it in CC. 12 Tankbustas in Assault kill it in one turn.

Therefore my current thinking is to keep the Stompa relatively cheap. Don't Load up on repair rolls. Spend those points on things that can neutralize threats to the Stompa like Bikes, Deff Koptas, or transports full of Tankbustas, MANZ, or Boyz. I think the obvious way to run a Stompa is with 1 Big Mek with Da Finkin Kap inside with a KFF (I've gone back and forward on the KFF). You've already got Buzzgob. That means 2 4+ repair rolls, one of which has a reroll.

In reality, most armies will recognize the Stompa for what it is. A Deathstar. How do you beat deathstars? Don't shoot at the deathstar. I guess my take on the Meta is this: 5-10% of armies can counter the Stompa faster than you can repair it. 80-90% of armies won't pose much threat to the Stompa. 1-2% of armies pose enough threat to the Stompa that you would need additional repair rolls, but not enough that they can kill it faster than you repair.

I expect those ratios to change as Stompas start Stomping people more regularly, but for right now, that is my read.

Yep pretty much what I've been thinking. I am leaning towards bikestar and stompa, but deciding what to put in the stompa, as well as what else to put in the list. Probably another MSU bike unit and some tankbustas...maybe even put the tankbustas inside the stompa. Not that it needs more close range killyness, but maybe tankbustas with a really reliable delivery system are good. I think I'm gravitating away from MANZ, as they are basically just superseded in their role by the stompa (except that it can't be in two places at once). But even bikestar plus stompa isn't that close to 1850

**koooaei**

I've got a feeling that for the price of all that MFF and tax i could almost get a second stompa.

**tag8833**

luke1705 wrote:
maybe even put the tankbustas inside the stompa. Not that it needs more close range killyness, but maybe tankbustas with a really reliable delivery system are good.

Remember the Stompa isn't an assault transport, so Tankbustas that get out are a shooty unit for a full turn before they can assault.

You might want to take a gunwagon or two. AV 13 like the Stompa, and can hold the Tankbustas if you decide you don't want them to ride the Stompa.

**cranect**

Hey guys I could use some tips on how to take on the tau and ad mech. Now I normally run a footslogging list or the dread mob from the ghazzy book. Both lists have a problem even reaching these two enemies. Against the tau the dread mob have been successful though but that was before all their new toys. Now against ad mech I am specifically talking the convocation since that's all I've fought with them before.
Here is what I have:
HQs: Multiple warbosses and big meks, painboy, grotsnick, zagstruck, 2 weidboyz
Troops: About 250 boyz, 40ish gretchin
Elites: 10 kommandos working on converting some boys to these, 6 meganobz, 20 burnas, and snikrot
Fast attack:4 trukks, 30 stormboyz, 15 warbikers, 2 blitza/burna bommas, a dakkajet, 6-9 deff koptas
Heavy support: 20 lootas, 3 battlewagons, 2 mek guns, 5 deff dreads, 16 killa kans, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, 5 flash gitz, 2 looted wagons, 2 big squiggoths
LOW: Ghazghkull, 2 stompas, gargantuan squiggoth.

Problems I normally encounter:
With the dread mob I can normally deal some damage before it goes and depending on the invul saves I might make it to combat. Against admech there are normally 2-3 groups of the breachers with grav cannons that demolish this list. Against tau it has faired better in the past since only a few guns could hurt them.
When I footslog it against both these armies even with the tide with a painboy and dawn of war deployment I struggle to make it to the enemy. The stormboys can normally get there but against tau the overwatch kills them and against ad mech they then die the next turn. We do play with objectives and such but people tend to place them all in their deployment zones. I did see some tips to negate that recently that I will try though.
I know the lists I'm bringing are not the best but I would like to try to at least be able to participate with them if I can. I can buy some stuff but not a ton. I've had better luck fighting necrons and eldar than fighting these two armies so I am curious as to what I can do with what I have.

**geargutz**

cranect wrote:

HQs: Multiple warbosses and big meks, painboy, grotsnick, zagstruck, 2 weidboyz
Troops: About 250 boyz, 40ish gretchin
Elites: 10 kommandos working on converting some boys to these, 6 meganobz, 20 burnas, and snikrot
Fast attack:4 trukks, 30 stormboyz, 15 warbikers, 2 blitza/burna bommas, a dakkajet, 6-9 deff koptas
Heavy support: 20 lootas, 3 battlewagons, 2 mek guns, 5 deff dreads, 16 killa kans, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, 5 flash gitz, 2 looted wagons, 2 big squiggoths
LOW: Ghazghkull, 2 stompas, gargantuan squiggoth.

havent played against admek, but as for tau, do as many msu fast as you can.
-boyz in trucks, they help harass and hold objectives...grots are good too if just for sitting on things and going to ground
- lone wolf defkoptas, squads arent recommended, they are early game objective campers and attract alot of fire from tau (away from the other boyz), also bring them from outflank only if tau doesn't have intercept
-3 warbikers with nob and pk, bospole is optional, but these guyz are your heavy hitters, if you play your cards right then the tau will shoot at everything else b4 they do these guyz
-minimum zagstruk formation, 3man teams with nob and big choppa...dont pay to much for pk, these guys pop in nice and close to their back lines just to harass his end field units and tie them up in combat

the whole point of msu vrs tau is to prevent concentrated tau fire, as soon as you plop up a large warbikers squad or some other large unit the tau have a nice fat target to markerlight and blast back to mork (tau are anti defstar this edition), with more targets to shoot at then they cant use all those fancy markerlights. while your msu wont win all the combats they get into (trust me, tau can beat back orks when its fairly small squads) youll have so many combats going on that you will have effectively halted his range power.
as for vrs the stromsurge (if your opponent decides to be a git and bring one), then use concentrated mass amount of dakka in the form of rokkets, defkoptas work well for this or if you can convert some boyz to tankbustas (despite being anti vehicle they can still hit mc fairly well, and im guessing also vrs gmc), and make some buggies (mass squads of tl roket buggies that dont worry about ork ld hit tau hard). i have had some success of flashgitz against tau, you get that ap3 and you can pretty much kill anything tau has and win combat with their nob stats (just keep them in a transport for protection, run it up midfield and just beocme a turret, you will get the benefit of bs3 after a turn if the tau isnt bright enough to blast them b4)
just keep those squads small and dont worry about mob rule, at such small man units you wont feel as bad when one runs, you have thos other guyz screaming their heads off barreling into the tau ranks

**tag8833**

cranect wrote:
When I footslog it against both these armies even with the tide with a painboy and dawn of war deployment I struggle to make it to the enemy. The stormboys can normally get there but against tau the overwatch kills them and against ad mech they then die the next turn. We do play with objectives and such but people tend to place them all in their deployment zones. I did see some tips to negate that recently that I will try though.

What you need is lots and lots and lots of solo deff Koptas. Use them to eat overwatch. Use them to tarpit shooty units.

Lobbas work super well (at killing marker lights), but I see that you only have 2 mek guns. Tau has absolutely all the answers against Orks. A Tau player can always list tailor against an Ork player and win. Ad mech is a bit more limited, but also very strong.

One thing that would help you tremendously is a Void shield Generator. Tau and Ad Mek can both knock it down easier than most armies, but it still reduces their firepower significantly.

If you tell me what is in the Ad Mek lists giving you trouble I might be able to help more. I was struggling mightily against Castallan robots before I realized he was playing them wildly wrong (Overwatching, and not taking WS hits when he buffed BS). Breachers with Grav are a problem for Vehicles, but get eaten up by boyz if you can get to them.

A tactic you might consider is outflanking some stuff. You can accomplish this by taking Da Finkin Kap on your warlord. This gives you a pretty good chance to roll Master of Ambush. With master of Ambush you can outflank MANZ in Trukks or Warbikes, or Boyz in Trukks. Getting some stuff in the backfield really helps. It would also let you infiltrat a Green Tide which lets you start 6" closer, but that isn't quite as ideal because you can't WAAAGH every turn.

**cranect**

Well for the admech I've gone against the war convocation list twice with I think it was ultramarine allies but not certain there. It creamed the dread mob with grav and just had enough shooting for the tide. I'll have to make some lobbas for the tau though. Then the other time against ad mech it was 2 onagers, 2 squads of breachers with the plasma cannons, 2 infiltrator and a rustalker squad, a few units of ranger and vangaurds, some castellans with a dominus and a unit of the breachers with the torsion cannons. Theee were some others I think but it didn't end well. That one was closer due to dawn of war and some lucky run rolls for me but against it hammer and anvil I never made it close.

**koooaei**

cranect wrote:
We do play with objectives and such but people tend to place them all in their deployment zones.

we play it the way that you place points first and than roll for side.

**tag8833**

cranect wrote:
Well for the admech I've gone against the war convocation list twice with I think it was ultramarine allies but not certain there. It creamed the dread mob with grav and just had enough shooting for the tide. I'll have to make some lobbas for the tau though. Then the other time against ad mech it was 2 onagers, 2 squads of breachers with the plasma cannons, 2 infiltrator and a rustalker squad, a few units of ranger and vangaurds, some castellans with a dominus and a unit of the breachers with the torsion cannons. Theee were some others I think but it didn't end well. That one was closer due to dawn of war and some lucky run rolls for me but against it hammer and anvil I never made it close.

War Convocation is tough. I haven't played it with my Orks yet. If I had to play it I'll take lots of Tankbustas, and Lobbas are still really good against Skitari and ok against Ad Mech. Your problem is outside of a Stompa, Orks don't really have anything that can survive terribly well against a War Convocation, and a War Convocation has the tools to kill a Stompa depending on how it is built, so you have to build a list with lots of MSU that is prepare to take casualties.

**cranect**

Alright. Well I already knew my objective placement needed work. Ya sadly I don't have a ton of tankbustas. I'm working in that but it is going slowly. Ya the guy who runs the convocation had two groups of either three or five of the guys who can fire 6 shots each in the cult mech book (breachers or the other one I can't remember) so armor goes down real quick when they are bs 5.

**tag8833**

cranect wrote:
Alright. Well I already knew my objective placement needed work. Ya sadly I don't have a ton of tankbustas. I'm working in that but it is going slowly. Ya the guy who runs the convocation had two groups of either three or five of the guys who can fire 6 shots each in the cult mech book (breachers or the other one I can't remember) so armor goes down real quick when they are bs 5.

I'm thinking you are talking about Kataphron Destroyers. They are vulnerable to Lootas. Lootas outrange them wound them on 2's and ignore their armor.

ETA. By the Way, they shoot Grav. Grav can't hurt a Void Shield (Though rule interpretations can differ), so a VSG would keep them from hurting you until they dropped it with their plasma units.

**cranect**

Oh that's good to know. Both of those actually. Ya I've started using my lootas again. They usually underperform but they've been doing work recently.

**geargutz**

So many still use nob bikers, but my question is can you easily replace the role of the nob biker squad with defkoptas?
A nob biker with pk is 70 pts
A defkoptas with buzz saw is 55pts.
While a defkopta doesn't have a turbo jink bonus, or a s8 pk, they still charge hit at s7 ap2 (hit n run allows the chance to charge multiple times), have a better gun, and can hop over terrain better then a bike while being faster, defkoptas can be ran single model for lone wolf buzzsaw, or in 5 man squads with hqs (give them zadsnark for 3up jink, Painboy for fnp, warboss for challenges and initiative bonus for the hit n run and you have a decent deathstar.)
I've yet to run defkoptas like this, but I'll let you know when I can.

**tag8833**

geargutz wrote:
So many still use nob bikers, but my question is can you easily replace the role of the nob biker squad with defkoptas?

I've run deffkopta deathstar a fair amount. It is good, but not great. I think it is better than Nob Bikers because it is so much chaeper, and can scout.

However neither is better than Ordinary warbikers. Warbikers are cheap enough they outshoot deffkoptas, and they get Scout and become troops (OS) thanks to Zhardsnark. They can be taken in much larger unit that helps for Mob rule, and allow for more multi-assaults. Warbikers with Zhardsnark are really good.

They can't all take powerclaws, and that is for the best, because you'd never want them to. With Zhardsnark, and a DLS warboss, and the Nob the warbiker deathstar has no shortage of killing power. What they lack is survivability. Even with Zhardsnark and a painboy there are lots of things that can kill them with ease. I once killed 45 Warbikes with my Flying Circus nids. Flamers, psychic powers, vector strikes, and just making them take saves. In that game I only lost a single model. Tau look at warbikes and they go away. I saw a Tau friend table someone with at least 45 warbikes on the top of 3 once. And that was with the old Tau codex. Imagine how those armies had fared if instead of 18 points per wound, the Ork players were paying 27 (deffkopta with buzzsaw) or 35 (Nob with PK).

**Vitali Advenil**

So I've got a squad of grots. Since they don't have mob rule, would it be worth buying the squig hound for that pseudo-mob rule, or just go with the min number of points possible? I'm leaning towards the latter but, then again, I want them for objective camping and they can't exactly do that if they're running away.