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yeah, I think DFK benefits the whole army and there was only 10 points left. I'd have to dump most of the uprgrades, CB, BP, the Nobz, or maybe some RRs to grab DLS. The list has something like 100 pk attacks on the charge so rerolling 4 of them, meh. I had originally put it in, but I was literally just that 25 points over, oops.

What's the best way to use Flashgitz? I love me their models but I honestly have ZERO clue what their role is, how to use them, and why they have such "great" stats.

Any of you have any ways to use the Snazzy Snazz guns?

use them in casual games where everything goes.

So I just went to a tournament, won 2 lost 1.

It was a back to basics style tournament which allowed no D, no LoW, no super heavy and only 1 of any type of unit outside of troops (CAD was mandatory). So i ran around 100 models, a mix of boyz, storm boyz, bikes and a squiggoth to meta game all the melta and grav.

I played genestealer cult game 1 and narrowly won, I also narrowly won game 3, but in game 2 I made it half way across the board and was almost tabled and lost terribly because of 2 thunderfire cannons that a librarian was giving ignores cover. This mixed with land speeder storms and their templates, and some grav centurions to take out the squiggoth made it a very painful game to play since I couldn't do anything about it.

HOWEVER, I am going to an ITC tournament GT late April and was wondering what you guys thought of this list:




For those of you that dont know what the skyhammer is, its pretty much an ork players dream (if it were made for orks).
The whole formation comes in turn 1 or 2, your choice, and devs have relentless, and assault marines can charge after they deep strike like the old stormboy shenanigans.


So the idea here is that the fearless, FnP, +1WS green tide with a lucky stick warboss and 6 nob power klaws run turn 1 and 2 up the board as the main threat. Now this would normally be whittled down heavily by an opponent, even in a grav melta metta where killing a boy is a bit of a waste. the grots and kannons will sit at the back/ move forward with the tide to grab objectives.

Meanwhile... Turn 1 (or 2 if they null deploy) the skyhammer comes down, shooting wraithknights that could hold up the tide, killing knights or tanks and assaulting any high threat targets to the green tide.

The opponent will simply HAVE to deal with the marines unless they want another volley of death in their faces, and after a turn or two of mopping them up, the green tide will be good and ready to pounce and end the game.



Pros:
Green tide will survive longer
High threat targets can be easily removed

cons:
Green tide might spend a turn doing nothing if a 1 is rolled when within 6" of a drop pod or marine.

Thoughts please?

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

Green Tide:

Warboss, lucky stick, warbike, power klaw

Depending on weather they use the recent faq or not, a biker boss might prevent the greentide from charging after a run move.

Also, i'm afraid it's going to fail due to 1 eye open special rule like you've noted.

 koooaei wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

Green Tide:

Warboss, lucky stick, warbike, power klaw

Depending on weather they use the recent faq or not, a biker boss might prevent the greentide from charging after a run move.

Also, i'm afraid it's going to fail due to 1 eye open special rule like you've noted.

In the FAQ it says that a bike can turbo boost if the unit t is in elects to run, so I'm guessing that means it's possible, but whether the tide can use waaagh after that is another question I guess?

There's a hidden nerf in the wuffen faq that states that every model in the unit has to be able to run+charge to utilise it.

 koooaei wrote:
There's a hidden nerf in the wuffen faq that states that every model in the unit has to be able to run+charge to utilise it.

Damn :/ well at least this means I have 25 spare points haha

I have modified the list accordingly

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
76nobs with Power klaws

I'd hate to be any of your opponents

I suppose that Robot marines would work. For me, the Devs must be modeled as Flash Gits... Assault Squads must be modeled as Stormboyz. Either case, I think that you must make Rokks for the drop pods.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I suppose that Robot marines would work. For me, the Devs must be modeled as Flash Gits... Assault Squads must be modeled as Stormboyz. Either case, I think that you must make Rokks for the drop pods.

I would certainly agree, except that I also plan on keeping the opportunity to make a marine force open, so need to be careful of making the marines too Orks

 EnsignTuna wrote:
What's the best way to use Flashgitz? I love me their models but I honestly have ZERO clue what their role is, how to use them, and why they have such "great" stats.

Any of you have any ways to use the Snazzy Snazz guns?

I've used flash gitz a bunch since they were my favorite unit from DOW1 and they've always had a mixed performance. Back in early six was the golden age for gitz when their gitfindas ignored cover but now they're a close combat unit ,because nobz, that wants to sit still.

It's hard not to compare them to lootas since they're both heavy weapons infantry but unlike lootas they don't have the range to sit in the deployment zone in ruins and be great. You can put them in a trukk but that's likely to die turn 1-2 unless your doing a trukk rush with lots of boyz going 24" while they only go 6 and shoot. A battlewagon with a kill kannon pairs well but it's expensive for an expensive unit that will die because it needs to move up to midfield and expose it's side armor. A FW gunwagon is a good middle ground, AV 13/12/10 with a twinlinked big shoota for only 60 points is how I run them most of the time. The catch is it takes up a heavy support slot which only leaves you with one left after flash gitz. I've also had a little sucess running grots in front of them for a 5+ cover untill they can get into some midfield ruins but that really depends on your meta and how much ignores cover there is.

Flashgitz suffer from low durability. THey have Nob bodies, but only have 6+ saves.
If you have a MegaArmored Warboss looking for a home, give him the lucky stick and put him with the Flashgitz. Probably not the best use for him, but it helps them a lot.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Flashgitz suffer from low durability. THey have Nob bodies, but only have 6+ saves.
If you have a MegaArmored Warboss looking for a home, give him the lucky stick and put him with the Flashgitz. Probably not the best use for him, but it helps them a lot.

The problem with this is that it adds an extra 125 points on to an already overly expensive unit and takes away their ability to Overwatch. Same problem with the AP3 bomb I want to try at some point with a big unit of Burna Boyz + MA Boss in a Wagon.

The real problem with flash gitz is that they have a S5 weapon like warbikes and lobbas. For the same amount of points these two units are way better than flash gitz which also need a transport and are very fragile.

Ok they can pierce marines armour but on average both lobbas and bikes cause more wounds than flash gitz.

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's a hidden nerf in the wuffen faq that states that every model in the unit has to be able to run+charge to utilise it.

Damn :/ well at least this means I have 25 spare points haha

I have modified the list accordingly

You're also either a boy or nob short. Ten full units PLUS the Warboss. So a Green Tide is always betweeen 101 and 301 models.

Tiny, I thought CTA allies were not allowed in ITC. Did they just change those rules or did I misread them?

If you run the tide, I'm a proponent of a couple of the boyz units having armor. You may be able to place these in such a way as they get it first with non-ap weapons but not for the AP3+ ones. As far as I know there is no rule about 1 squad of boyz having armor and the other 9 not.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Tiny, I thought CTA allies were not allowed in ITC. Did they just change those rules or did I misread them?

If you run the tide, I'm a proponent of a couple of the boyz units having armor. You may be able to place these in such a way as they get it first with non-ap weapons but not for the AP3+ ones. As far as I know there is no rule about 1 squad of boyz having armor and the other 9 not.

you are correct and now im really sad haha :/

So there's always some debate about ork ranged infantry. Bustas or Lootas? Flashgitz at all? I remain steadfast that there's a bigger picture, so here it is. It compares shoota boyz to big shoota boyz, bikers to lootas, flashgitz to bustas. WPT is the amount of wounds per turn you can expect the full amount of shots to get. PP is how many points those wounds cost you. Generally when people reccomend flashgitz, they totally forget PP (or Per Point). Paranthesis will refer to TL weapons, and greater/lesser than will represent tank hunter. The weapon that causes the most wounds per turn per point per enemy will be highlighted. GEQ is T3 5+, CEQ is T3 4+. (AM w/ Carapace, Some Eldar Aspect Warriors.)

Vs GEQ - WPT [PP]
Shoota - 0.44 [0.063]
Big Shoota - 0.84 [0.076]
Dakkagun - (1.58) [0.088]
Deffgun - 0.56 [0.040]
Snazzgun - 0.54 [0.025]
Rokkit - 0.28 [0.022]

Vs CEQ - WPT [PP]
Shoota - 0.22 [0.031]
Big Shoota - 0.42 [0.038]
Dakkagun - (0.69) [0.038]
Deffgun - 0.56 [0.040]
Snazzgun - 0.54 [0.025]
Rokkit - 0.28 [0.022]

Vs MEQ - WPT [PP]
Shoota - 0.05 [0.007]
Big Shoota - 0.07 [0.006]
Dakkagun - (0.36) [0.020]
Deffgun - 0.18 [0.013]
Snazzgun - 0.20 [0.009]
Rokkit - 0.28 [0.022]

Vs TEQ
Shoota - 0.04 [0.006]
Big Shoota - 0.05 [0.005]
Dakkagun - (0.10) [0.006]
Deffgun - 0.24 [0.009]
Snazzgun - 0.15 [0.007]
Rokkit - 0.02 [0.002]

Vs Wraithknight
Deffgun - 0.08 [0.006]
Rokkit - 0.17 [0.014]

VS AV10
Shoota - 0.12 [0.017]
Big Shoota - 0.33 [0.030]
Dakkagun - (0.54) [0.030]
Deffgun - 0.44 [0.031]
Snazzgun - 0.33 [0.015]
Rokkit - <0.32> [0.027]

VS AV11
Big Shoota - 0.12 [0.010]
Dakkagun - (0.18) [0.010]
Deffgun - 0.33 [0.023]
Snazzgun - 0.12 [0.005]
Rokkit - <0.30> [0.023]

Vs AV12
Deffgun - 0.22 [0.016]
Rokkit - <0.25> [0.019]

Vs AV 13
Deffgun - 0.11 [0.008]
Rokkit - <0.19> [0.015]

Vs AV 14
Rokkit - <0.10> [0.005]

You can see the issue with snazzgunz. May seem to be effective on the table but when you look at the bigger picture you handicap the rest of your force. It's never the worst option, unless you're targeting a vehicle, but they're solidly bottom tier. I could expand on this if there's interest, I thought about including Necrons and MEQ/GEC bikers. I could try an overall score too, but I'd have to weigh the categories, they aren't all as common as the other.

E: Discovered a small error w/r/t the rokkit MEQ values and it has now been fixed. It actually gives them the top spot there by a hair.

Can you show the math on the Tankbusta/Lootas vs AV11 and up? It's been common knowledge to me that Lootas are better at everything except AV13 and up

 Rismonite wrote:
Can you show the math on the Tankbusta/Lootas vs AV11 and up? It's been common knowledge to me that Lootas are better at everything except AV13 and up

The math above seems to favor the tankbustas, but it completely ignores range, which gives the lootas the edge against light vehicles. On the other hand, the TBs have tankhunter, which means most hits are pens against AV11.

Not sure how to mathhammer range and tankhunter, which would be needed for a true comparison.

I almost always take some of each.

Lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the tips.

I am going to build a battlewagon and I am looking for suggestions on the loadout. I searched the forums, but only found threads from previous editions.

With the current rules and options, what's a good way to run a battlewagon against marines? With it not being a Fast vehicle, it seems that only having one gun is the way to go since everything else will be firing snap shots since I plan to move around with it.

Lend me your orky wisdom!

I've spent a lot of posts trying to dispel that very myth so I'll gladly share.

I did the orginal calcs just in my head, this time I ran them through Wolfram Alpha but the original estimations are all relatively spot on. Basically the only error is from me rounding before multiplying in places. Makes it easier to do calculations in your head that are good enough for use during gametime when you need to figure some stuff out in the moment. It ties the result for AV11, but they're basically tied there before and after anyway.

AV11
Lootas - 2(1/3)(1/2) = 0.33 / 14 = 0.023
Tankbustas - (1/3)((2/3)+(1/3)(2/3)) = 0.30 / 13 = 0.023

AV12
Lootas - 2(1/3)(1/3) = 0.22 / 14 = 0.016
Tankbustas - (1/3)((1/2)+(1/2)(1/2)) = 0.25 / 13 =0.019

AV13
Lootas - 2(1/3)(1/6) = 0.11 / 14 = 0.008
Tankbustas - (1/3)((1/3)+(2/3)(1/3)) = 0.19 / 13 = 0.015

AV14
Lootas - 2(1/3)(0)= 0 / 14 = 0
Tankbustas - (1/3)((1/6)+(5/6)(1/6)) = 0.1 / 13 = 0.008

You can see that for each point of AV, the deffgun's efficiency decreases significantly more than the tankhunting rokkits do.The busta has protection from this with it's tank hunter reroll. You can see the effect these rerolls can have when looking at the effectiveness of the TL dakkaguns. Lastly, the busta is cheaper so that helps out it's PP value.

This is not to say you can't use deffguns vs AV11-12. There's barely a difference at all vs AV11, and they're every bit as effective vs AV12 as the bustas are vs AV13, but ultimately yeah, the bustas are more effective. This hasn't even brought bomb squigs or Glory Hogs into consideration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Can you show the math on the Tankbusta/Lootas vs AV11 and up? It's been common knowledge to me that Lootas are better at everything except AV13 and up

The math above seems to favor the tankbustas, but it completely ignores range, which gives the lootas the edge against light vehicles. On the other hand, the TBs have tankhunter, which means most hits are pens against AV11.

Not sure how to mathhammer range and tankhunter, which would be needed for a true comparison.

I almost always take some of each.

The lootas have better range but inferior wargear options, transports, ability to take objectives, and special rules. They are effectively statues if you want to use them at all. The comparison is solely based on ranged infantry weapons as mentioned in the beginning of that post. I've included the math on how to calculate tankhunter, which seems to be were most of the confusion stems from. I did mention including it in my original post, represented by the greater/less than symbols, or <>.

Basically the misconception about ork shooting can be summed up thusly: People think more shots equals more effective firepower but the math shows rerolls are even more effective, and single points in S make a bigger difference than people imagine.

You definitely nailed the best answer, taking both. You would have great coverage just rolling warbikers/lootas/bustas.

e: ALSO almost forgot, the AV WPT equivalent is HPT (Hull points Per Turn) and does not factor in pen results, which would even more dramatically favour the bustas.

e2: Also worth consideration, The extra range the lootas have is usually used defensively no? I mean to say Lootas are usually deployed in the backfield instead of on the front line in a trukk, as tankbustas are. They end up with a more similar effective offensive range. I view range as much more of defensive perk, rather than an offensive one.

I think your Tankbustas might be one point cheaper than mine, if that is what the 12 represents.

EDIT Thanks for the math

I'll go back and fix that. Like I said, all from memory. Shouldn't affect the final values too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the tips.

I am going to build a battlewagon and I am looking for suggestions on the loadout. I searched the forums, but only found threads from previous editions.

With the current rules and options, what's a good way to run a battlewagon against marines? With it not being a Fast vehicle, it seems that only having one gun is the way to go since everything else will be firing snap shots since I plan to move around with it.

Lend me your orky wisdom!

Depends what unit you are putting in it. Any thoughts on that? Definitely go with a reinforced ram so you can tuck it into cover for a save with a 1/36 chance of failing an immobilize test instead of a 1/6. If you're putting a melee unit in there, I like to roll with 4x rokkits so the wagon has something to do after it dumps their units. Once you've committed to taking a BW, the rokkit upgrade is the more points efficient way to add some dakka to your force. Never take 'Ard Case, never ever. If you want a killkannon, take a gun wagon instead.

Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.

I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.

Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?

Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?

And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?

How would this work?

 Sikplex wrote:
Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.

I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.

Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?

Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?

And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?

How would this work?

Two Bully Boyz formations and a Blitz Brigade you say?

 Sikplex wrote:
Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.

I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.

Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?

Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?

And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?

How would this work?

Oh, easily. If anything, given the current meta in 7th ed, the old adage of "Boyz before toyz" doesn't seem to apply as much anymore since there's so many things boyz can't hurt nowadays like wraithknights and such.

A safe bet is taking either trukk boyz as you said, or if you want something more beefy, a 17 man boy squad with a Mega-Armoured Warboss with the Lucky Stikk and a Painboy in a battlewagon. This unit is very solid since it gives you the numbers you need without going overboard while also being something the opponent can't ignore due to their potential damage output. It's also fairly tanky thanks to the MAW with the Lucky Stikk taking the hits in the front (where he should be) and he can LoS any AP2 weaponry and the Painboy is there to make sure your meatshields don't die off too quickly.

Then you can supplement the force with Kustom Mega Kannonz and/or Lobbas in the back while you have Tankbustas roving around in trukks taking potshots at vehicles and armoured units. Also be sure to go for some deffkoptas so that you can contest objectives or get linebreaker later in the game. Outflanking them as single units is the best IMO since that way you avoid giving away easy first blood and that way they never suffer morale issues.

 Sikplex wrote:
Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.

I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.

Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?

Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?

And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?

How would this work?

Hey! Sorry, was gonna get back to you in the army list thread but i got distracted by math lol.

I'm generally not a fan of 'Eavy Armour. Too expensive. (Min 40 points.) The most effective way to maximize your survivability is 6+ boyz and a MA character, with FNP and/or DLS. The idea is you keep your MAWB up front. If he takes a wound, it only has a 1/54 chance to get through the armour reroll and FNP. If he's hit by AP2 and/or S10, you can look out sir that wound on to a boy. 'Eavy Armour wouldn't help there and just makes each loss more expensive.

If you aren't rolling a MAWB they're slightly more effective, especially at surviving explosions. Not really enough to make it worthwhile imho.

If you want to run 4+ Orks, warbikers may be for you. Taking the character Zhadsnark Da Rippa from the IA8 dread mob update allows you to take warbikers as troops. T5 instead of 4, 4+ armour, 3/4+ jink save, turboboost. You can see the effectiveness of their dakkagunz in my earlier post math ham'ing ranged infantry weapons.

When it comes to elite cc tho, you can't really beat the MANz. You had a 750 point list right? You could do bullyboyz, 3x5 MANz, 3x trukk w/ ram, 3x killsaws, and 3x kombi-skorchas for a legal list lol.

This isn't too bad a starting point