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Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.

Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.

Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points

Or just free upgrades like so many armies have:

35 point discount on DT's if running 6 Troops, Free Nob upgrade in Boyz mobs, free Rokkits or Big Shootas. A million things to slightly boost Orks yet easily increase GW sales.

I love the bullyboyz too but I find more enjoying and rewarding a full MSU style, having 8 different units (5 boyz and 3 bikes) with pks, plus a lot of S8, S7 and S5 shots is a lot of fun.

Unfortunately I face a lot of AP2 which completely screw the efficiency of the bullyboyz.

I'd really love to try the VSG to protect them, but I'm too lazy to scratch build one (I have too many unfinished projects that have priority) and I'm not interested in buying one as it's extremely expensive and doesn't look orkish at all. Still looking forward to try it though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.

Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points

I'd prefer having a formation like the SM gladius which gives orks free trukks. It also suits orks better than SM.

It's fine for both of them, as the low-firepower armies need a points handicap vs Xeno firepower. Without gladius, you get.... BA. And yes, marines and Orks are both low firepower.

I strongly suspect that free formations like gladius are going away in 8th edition (and thank goodness, as it is a super bad idea!) Looking of AoS battalions, expect to pay some points like in the old Apoc days.

I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp
Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF
Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)

The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade

And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQ IC as well.

Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.

gungo wrote:
I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp
Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF
Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)

The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade

And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQ IC as well.

Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.

Part of the problem with this is that if you try to use a 50-model HQ-buffed deathstar, you'll have to walk everywhere with a massive unwieldy unit that needs to get into charge range to do anything. Also, maybe this is something for a new thread in the proposed rules section.

That's also kinda boring moving all those boyz. I've never fielded units on foot, moving units of 50 dudes would be a nightmare and games would last 1 hour more

 Blackie wrote:
No way an ork list could bring down a WK by shooting. Not even with 60 rokkits. Those S8 ap3 weapons are not suited for killing AV14 or semi immortal things like WKs, they are quite useful against MEQ and Av10-12, maybe 13, that's their room.

Against AV14 and T8 multiwounds units we litterally have nothing but power klaws if we really want to take these things down.

Solo kannons could be nice but even going double cad you can only field 6. Empty trukks are fast attacks so they compete with tankbustas only in terms of points. I think min tankbustas in trukks are good if you bring 2 or (even better) 3 of them. If the opponent shoots at them instead of the advancing boyz/meganobz/bikes it's good, if they are ignored they could do some damage and in case of necessity they provide 2-3 melta bombs around the battlefield.

But you have to go with a super fast army that relies on trukk spam to get a nice synergy with tankbustas. Or a blitzbrigade.

14 deffkoptas means 5 CADs or units that have more than single koptas, it doesn't seem a great deal to me. If you field 3-6 it should be enough.

14 Deffkoptas fits in a single Ork Decurion with 2 Core slots and 2-20 auxiliary.

It takes 11 Deffkoptas with TL Rokkits to hit a WK 6 times. 3 wounds go thru its Toughness and 1 goes thru its FNP. We are assuming the WK gets no cover and is in open ground (as the WK is coming towards your army).

11 Deffkoptas per 1 unsaved wound. 66 Deffkopta shots.

With 14 Deffkoptas shooting every turn it'll take almost all game. I also had 2x4 Mek Guns (S8 AP2) that almost always hit with Grot BS and WK's base size. With a little bit a luck and no cover saves, it's possible to kill the WK in 3 turns, but it's super inefficient.

Hence, I gave up on killing WK with my rokkits. It's Stompa with D hits or bust.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

gungo wrote:
I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp
Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF
Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)

The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade

And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQ IC as well.

Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.

Part of the problem with this is that if you try to use a 50-model HQ-buffed deathstar, you'll have to walk everywhere with a massive unwieldy unit that needs to get into charge range to do anything. Also, maybe this is something for a new thread in the proposed rules section.

It's basically a greentide style list nothing near a deathstar and only one option under this design. It's also significantly faster than the 100+ model greentide.
If you want trukk spam you can still do 10man units with 2 characters of your choice.
If you want bike stars you can add characters on bikes to them as well.
If you want dred mobs they too can benefit from cheaper meks with KFF embarked on them.
But regardless orks have always been a horde army. If you want a Death Star it would have to be the ghaz council formation and even that will gain a slight benefit from reduced costs from above list.

Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.

The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!

So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.

In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!

Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.

The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!

So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.

In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!

Awesome! Did you use the same list you as against Harlequins? (4 MAWB + boyz in trukk, 4 MAWB + boyz in looted wagons, 8 koptas, 4 lobbas)
Was there a time when you'd have like to have paid for barebone nobz or cybork bodies?

gungo wrote:
Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.

New buggies makes a lot of sense. In a Ghazghkull Thraka themed release it makes zero sense. Come on GW, give us a speedfreaks themed release!

Ashkayel wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.

The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!

So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.

In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!

Awesome! Did you use the same list you as against Harlequins? (4 MAWB + boyz in trukk, 4 MAWB + boyz in looted wagons, 8 koptas, 4 lobbas)
Was there a time when you'd have like to have paid for barebone nobz or cybork bodies?

gungo wrote:
Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.

New buggies makes a lot of sense. In a Ghazghkull Thraka themed release it makes zero sense. Come on GW, give us a speedfreaks themed release!

Exact same list that you quoted. Absolutely would have loved Naked Nobz to absorb some of the challenges, especially and obviously against his Str 6 AP 2 wielding sword dudes (ladies?)!! Such an expensive upgrade when it's times 8! Also a Str 4 model would be helpful when multicharging vehicles to be able to possibly hurt fear armor 10. Orks should have an army wide rule that they are never penalized for disorganized assaults, should still get the Furious Charge and extra attack, at least during the freaking Waaagh!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex Armageddon is why I started Orks back in 2001.

Wow, a buggy kit would be great. We've literally had the current models since second edition. The oldest models still in use that I'm aware of.

I hope it's super modular and can be used to make a deffkopta, too. The metal deffkopta kit is lame and I have no idea why they never released the plastic one as a standalone kit after they discontinued Black Reach.

I love my rokkit buggy. I don't have a deffkopta so I use my buggy in a similar way, to grab objectives and distract the enemy. The nice thing about a vehicle (compared to a single jet bike) is that I can throw it in front of an enemy tank and force them to Move around or Ram, which greatly limits what they can do that turn much more than tank shocking does.

The big problem, as others have mentioned, is that Fast Attack is the most crowded spot in a good Ork list. We need a Speed Freak option. I never understood why the different Ork klans don't have different army selection options or special rules like the other factions, such as Marine chapters or Eldar craftworlds.

A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.

I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Exact same list that you quoted. Absolutely would have loved Naked Nobz to absorb some of the challenges, especially and obviously against his Str 6 AP 2 wielding sword dudes (ladies?)!! Such an expensive upgrade when it's times 8! Also a Str 4 model would be helpful when multicharging vehicles to be able to possibly hurt fear armor 10. Orks should have an army wide rule that they are never penalized for disorganized assaults, should still get the Furious Charge and extra attack, at least during the freaking Waaagh!

The Codex Armageddon is why I started Orks back in 2001.

Yeah that's an expensive upgrade but I think it's worth it. I'll be puting barebone nobz in my 1000 pts list. And note the times where I would have liked to have cybork bodies, hehe.

Army wide rule for no disorganized assaults? That would be fluffly and awesome! I'd take that instead of the silly "HoW if you roll 10" assaults".

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
I hope it's super modular and can be used to make a deffkopta, too. The metal deffkopta kit is lame and I have no idea why they never released the plastic one as a standalone kit after they discontinued Black Reach.

I doubt they make it for a buggy and a kopta, they already need to address the buggy vs trakk option. I hope they make it customizable asf, unlike the trukk, mek gun or battlewagon kits. As for AoBR koptas, you should look for used ones on eBay, Craigslist or NobleKnight.

 Blackie wrote:
A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.

I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.

The fact most of our competitve units don't get any formations is quite disturbing... GW knows we will buy them anyway, why bother making nice formations?

Blackie wrote:
A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.

I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.
The fact most of our competitve units don't get any formations is quite disturbing... GW knows we will buy them anyway, why bother making nice formations?

That is old GW. New GW hasn't touched Orks, Nids, or Necrons yet.

Personally while it would be nice to get some speed freaks stuff I'd rather have a thing for each clan. I personally prefer the snakebites, blood axes, and goffs over speed freaks, bad moons, and deff skullz.

Snake bites require a bunch of unique models I kinda wish forgeworld took over that line with boarboyz, squiggoths, gargantuan squiggoths, squids, etc.
bloodaxes are really just one type of elite unit
Goffs are pretty much every ork release at present
Speed freak is currently our strongest units and literally have no formations for bikes, buggies, deffkoptas, skorchas, trukks, traks, or big guns.
Badmoon always felt like yellow colored goffs. I guess you can say they have more mega armour and pirate orks.
Deff skulls gravitate more to looted wagons and stuff and feel like more of a goff army with a ton of converted models.

Yes speed freaks is the current strongest way to play but wouldn't it be great if there were other good ways to build a list as well? I agree snakebites would take work so they aren't very likely. The blood axes are more than just kommandos they tend to have more stormboyz and armored columns as well. Since when are big guns a speed freak thing? They move slower than anything else. They are good but that doesn't make them speed freaks. The rest of the things you listed could use some cool formations and such to run an army out of them.

Big guns aren't speed freaks just annoyed they don't have a formation either.

Our only good units with a decent formation is meganobs and maybe battlewagons (but it's really expensive). We need a good speed freak book.

gungo wrote:
Big guns aren't speed freaks just annoyed they don't have a formation either.

Our only good units with a decent formation is meganobs and maybe battlewagons (but it's really expensive). We need a good speed freak book.

Or allowing our special character and formations to assault after arriving from reserves: Snikrot and Zagstruk. Also Snikrot should be able to combine the mobs ala Zagstruk, three PK Nobs with special character and extra Boyz for wounds could damage a lot of opponents if they didn't have to wait a turn being shot to pieces. While we're at it: some grenades that deny overwatch would be nice

gungo wrote:
Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.

New buggies would be awesome. I've wanted buggies/traks for ages but couldn't justify to myself the time or energy I'd need to convert them to be visually consistent with the newer line of Ork models :(

Lately GW has seemed... different, somehow. I find myself actually WANTING them to take another shot at our faction... maybe just too much fungus beer...

Make Mob Rule only once per turn would fix ork moral.

 PipeAlley wrote:

gungo wrote:
Big guns aren't speed freaks just annoyed they don't have a formation either.

Our only good units with a decent formation is meganobs and maybe battlewagons (but it's really expensive). We need a good speed freak book.

Or allowing our special character and formations to assault after arriving from reserves: Snikrot and Zagstruk. Also Snikrot should be able to combine the mobs ala Zagstruk, three PK Nobs with special character and extra Boyz for wounds could damage a lot of opponents if they didn't have to wait a turn being shot to pieces. While we're at it: some grenades that deny overwatch would be nice

I can see the assault after deepstrike formations making a comeback for orks however if we are into wishlisting now.
Give all walkers ere we go so they can move, run and charge in a waaagh
And give all ork vehicles the wazbom blastjet stikkbomb flinga instead of the redundant stikk bomb chukka as well. 5++ would go a long way to fixing all the weak and easily killable ork walkers and trukks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Make Mob Rule only once per turn would fix ork moral.

As for mob rule a once per turn effect would help fix the other major problem with playing orks. To much rolling and taking way to much time. Gw is never going to fix the issue with moving 100 boys but they can cut down on all the morale rolling.

god I hate the new mob


give me +1 LD for every 5 models above minimum please.

 davou wrote:
god I hate the new mob


give me +1 LD for every 5 models above minimum please.

Thing is, this mob rule gives small, elite squads a chance. Meganobz have a chance to autopass morale fails if they have a character in the unit. Otherwise, they'd be stuck at their terribly Ld 7. I think mob rule is actually a good thing, as it allows us to run smaller squads; it just got rid of a better morale rule. Don't get rid of mob rule, keep it and bring back the previous morale rule.

Except when you use the Waaagh! Supplement and your 2-9man units autofail. I like the idea of davou's Mob Rule as there is no negative. It simply buffs horde-style orks which promotes fluff. Small units will simply just be Ld7 and not be penalized anymore by random rolls. Orks don't need to be hurt anymore than the damage done by their own codex.

It's still not fearless like Mob Rule was in the past with large mobs but it's a start in the right direction I suppose.

The new Mob Rule is a mixed blessing. I play a lot of Trukk mobs, and while the rule helps very often to keep them committed to the fight, occasionally the downside is really punishing. It doesn't feel fun or fluffy when your mob of slugga boys spends its whole time on the board slowly killing itself off from Mob rule rolls made to avoid pinning tests and the like.

As was mentioned previously, I agree that a flat Ld bonus is not really going to cover all the use cases.

What about: a Ld bonus based on unit size, as well as a Ld bonus based on a character's presence, and with both combined the unit becomes Fearless, like the older mob rule?