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I think the new To Wound chart will be a small net positive for us. Low strength (5 and under) weapons get a small boost and T4 is a little better against the mass of S6/7 currently out there.

Well and if you go by the big update thread, grots will be killing all the land raiders.

 Jambles wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:So with all the stuff so far, I've put together a list of the rule changes and how they would affect Orks.

So far, there are more things in general that help us, but units leaving combat and multiple overwatch are really big detriments, IMHO.

Let me know if I missed anything, or if you think I put something in the wrong list.

Things helping Orks

- Balancing
- Removing Initiative
- Chargers go first
- Pile-in to other units
- Removing death stars
- Removing formations
- Vehicles gain armor
- Removed vehicle facing
- Removing vehicle damage table
- pulling dead models by owner's choice
- Charges move models even if failed
- Shooting pistols in combat
- Variety of force org charts

Things hurting Orks

- Units allowed to leave combat
- multiple overwatch
- Twin Linked converted to multiple shots
- Morale system hurts large units

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units
- Loss of templates

On the subject of multiple overwatch - was this really a situation that came up for a lot of Ork players here? I very seldom charged a single unit with multiple units, and then very seldom failed to charge with the first unit to then follow up with the second. If you engage with your first charger, they don't still then get to shoot at subsequent chargers - that hasn't changed. The only change here is that now, if you try to eat an enemy unit's overwatch with your unit of grots, they actually have to SUCCEED at their charge to prevent other units from getting hit.

jhnbrg wrote:

Every singe update so far has been an indirect nerf to orks, every singe update! From -1 to hit with heavy weapons to multiple overwatch to the way forner blast weapons now needs BS for every hit. It looks like orks will be even suckier than before.

Can I ask how always hitting first on the charge is an indirect nerf to Orks?

Ok, I might have over reacted some but i still think that orks are getting the worst of it mostly. With a low save and a low bs, every -1 will affect us much more than other factions. -1 to hit when moving with heavy weapons makes us the same as before while every one else gat a big bonus compared to snap fire.
Most of the things in the list that helps orks are neutral or sligthly bad.

I dont hate 8th edition and i think that 40k needs a restart but i cant see how they will be able to balance orks with the rules so far.

Are Nobz in heavy armor with Shoota/Skorcha suddenly going to be playable?

 JimOnMars wrote:

- pulling dead models by owner's choice
- Charges move models even if failed

Anyone got confirmation on these two?

 davou wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

- pulling dead models by owner's choice
- Charges move models even if failed

Anyone got confirmation on these two?

Haven't seen anything on the first. For the other, some of us have read the line from the Charge Phase article

GW wrote:You can select any unit within 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6″.

to mean models will move regardless, some have not so I guess we'll need clarification.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Converting twin link to double shots helps the orks least of all the races:

BS TL Hits x2 Hits
1 11/36 12/36
2 20/36 24/36
3 27/36 36/36
4 32/36 48/36
5 35/36 60/36

This is not good for us.

I just did that same math on Excel. We'll just have to wait and see how the points balance out and how much cover adds. The simple fact that Str 5 Dakka Guns hurt everything T9 and lower on a 3+ helps us and Tau considerably. Also our Nobs in CC. 10 Naked Nobs getting 50 3+ to hit 3+ to wound attacks sounds pretty nice.

Also upgrades for Units may be free.

Also HQ's can take dedicated Transports so maybe they'll be riding by themselves?

Either way I'm cautiously optimistic Bikers and NobBikers may be back especially with some really awesome Exhaust Cloud Rule. Remember worst they can hit their 6 shots is now a 6+. Modifiers to BS and armor save hurt us the least simply because our stats are so bad in those areas.

 JimOnMars wrote:
So with all the stuff so far, I've put together a list of the rule changes and how they would affect Orks.

So far, there are more things in general that help us, but units leaving combat and multiple overwatch are really big detriments, IMHO.

Let me know if I missed anything, or if you think I put something in the wrong list.

Spoiler:

Things helping Orks

- Balancing
- Removing Initiative
- Chargers go first
- Pile-in to other units
- Removing death stars
- Removing formations
- Vehicles gain armor
- Removed vehicle facing
- Removing vehicle damage table
- pulling dead models by owner's choice
- Charges move models even if failed
- Shooting pistols in combat
- Variety of force org charts

Things hurting Orks

- Units allowed to leave combat
- multiple overwatch
- Twin Linked converted to multiple shots
- Morale system hurts large units

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units
- Loss of templates

You could add the new AP system as a buff. In 7th we had no saves against AP5 and AP6 weapons, but now we have our t-shirt save. However, you could argue that our big shootas won't be removing 5+ saves, tho... Still, I think it will be a bonus for us.

Now that dedicated transports have their own slot, battlewagons will count as dedicated transport or they will remain heavy supports? I really hope they won't be HS anymore, especially with their new stats, I don't want them to compete with our long ranged shooty units or the 'nauts.

 Blackie wrote:
Now that dedicated transports have their own slot, battlewagons will count as dedicated transport or they will remain heavy supports? I really hope they won't be HS anymore, especially with their new stats, I don't want them to compete with our long ranged shooty units or the 'nauts.

Didn't think about that. Honestly I'm not optimistic about that, but we'll have to see. Maybe there's a speed freeks detachment that allows them as dedicated transports?

Ashkayel wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
So with all the stuff so far, I've put together a list of the rule changes and how they would affect Orks.

So far, there are more things in general that help us, but units leaving combat and multiple overwatch are really big detriments, IMHO.

Let me know if I missed anything, or if you think I put something in the wrong list.

Spoiler:

Things helping Orks

- Balancing
- Removing Initiative
- Chargers go first
- Pile-in to other units
- Removing death stars
- Removing formations
- Vehicles gain armor
- Removed vehicle facing
- Removing vehicle damage table
- pulling dead models by owner's choice
- Charges move models even if failed
- Shooting pistols in combat
- Variety of force org charts

Things hurting Orks

- Units allowed to leave combat
- multiple overwatch
- Twin Linked converted to multiple shots
- Morale system hurts large units

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units
- Loss of templates

You could add the new AP system as a buff. In 7th we had no saves against AP5 and AP6 weapons, but now we have our t-shirt save. However, you could argue that our big shootas won't be removing 5+ saves, tho... Still, I think it will be a bonus for us.

Added to buffs:

- Walkers in general now "punch their weight"
- Dedicated Transports now usable by all units
- New AP system helps 6+ & 4+ armor
- Cover and armor stack

The first of these is huge. The rest are marginal at best, but I think they are buffs.

I'm hoping an ork boy is 5 pts and a Shoota is free.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm hoping an ork boy is 5 pts and a Shoota is free.

A lot will be determined if pistols still count as an extra CC weapon. If they don't, I think most people will be taking shootas as pistols aren't worth it otherwise. If they do, it'll still be the old debate. I still think "replace slugga and choppa for shoota" should be free but "add shoota" should be 1 pt.

Yeah, if choppas are AP-1, I want my shoota boyz to keep them.

Choppa AP-1
Big Choppa AP-2
Power Klaw AP-3

That was meant to be! Let's go GW!

Or we could get 1-2 new melee weapon options, that'd be nice!

So...would a 2-wound ork boy at 10 pts (base) be a buff or a nerf?

 JimOnMars wrote:

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units

I'd say that characters not joining units is a really really bad thing to orks. Most ork characters lack decent survivability. And there's still a number of ways to snipe them out. And warbosses are great in mellee. Which they probably won't see that often now. And...we have no idea how they interact with transports.

Split fire is a bad thing cause now this marines won't waste lazcannons on your naked boyz and will instead blow up a trukk.

 koooaei wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units

I'd say that characters not joining units is a really really bad thing to orks. Most ork characters lack decent survivability. And there's still a number of ways to snipe them out. And warbosses are great in mellee. Which they probably won't see that often now. And...we have no idea how they interact with transports.

Split fire is a bad thing cause now this marines won't waste lazcannons on your naked boyz and will instead blow up a trukk.

I agree, warbosses would be nerfed quite badly, even if they have the possibility to strike first thanks to new charge rules. I think we will see a lot of painboyz around the battlefield if their FNP works like KFF bubbles.

We haven't seen the Warboss's stats... we haven't seen model rules... there is still so much that we haven't seen.
We'll be fine.

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...would a 2-wound ork boy at 10 pts (base) be a buff or a nerf?

That's funny, I had that exact thought last night.

It does help with battleshock, and not being able to spread wounds around keeps it from being completely ridiculous.

I think for footsloggers it's a wash with the higher number of shots a lot of weapons are doing. Trukk boyz benefit more with transports being a little tougher. 2 wound bikers? (and 3 wound nobs!) Now we're talking.

I think it would be a net buff, even if a lot of our elite choices are pricey already, depending on if Ignore Cover is still around and how much of it there is.

 koooaei wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Things neutral to Orks

- Split fire
- Characters not joining units

I'd say that characters not joining units is a really really bad thing to orks. Most ork characters lack decent survivability. And there's still a number of ways to snipe them out. And warbosses are great in mellee. Which they probably won't see that often now. And...we have no idea how they interact with transports.

Split fire is a bad thing cause now this marines won't waste lazcannons on your naked boyz and will instead blow up a trukk.

I'm not sure sniping a warboss is any easier now than before, if he is placed correctly. Also I don't see why he can't charge the same unit by himself, or a different unit. If you look at the Rubrics datasheet today, the character is faster than the grunts...I would assume the warboss will be as well and should be able to get in no problem.

Also, he'll get 2+ cover/armor often and 7-8 wounds from the few sniper shots, so I think he'll be OK.

I put split fire as neutral because we can use it as well...not very effective at bs2, but with units of 30 we may get some opportunities there. But after thinking about it, with 5 marines all firing at different things, it helps others more than us. I'll move it to Nerf.

With out seeing the whole picture it is not possible to determine how orks will be in 8th edition. Although I do agree that based on what we know there are some concerns.

not to mention, that unless warbosses suddenly out-number guilliman for wounds, you're not allowed to shoot at him with lazcannons anyway. IC's arent targetable directly.... It certainly does smell like trouble for our vehicles though... I certainly hope that we get some way to mitigate them blowing up easier than any other armies transports.

 davou wrote:
not to mention, that unless warbosses suddenly out-number guilliman for wounds, you're not allowed to shoot at him with lazcannons anyway. IC's arent targetable directly.... It certainly does smell like trouble for our vehicles though... I certainly hope that we get some way to mitigate them blowing up easier than any other armies transports.

If they keep their current point cost, it's mitigated enough, IMHO. The only thing wrong with trukks was the explosion that took out half of the boyz, then pinned them, or caused 2 mob rule checks. With that gone, and trukks getting saves and wounds, I'm perfectly happy with them. Let them blow 1 up...it's better than what we have now when they blow up 4.

 JimOnMars wrote:
The only thing wrong with trukks was the explosion that took out half of the boyz, then pinned them, or caused 2 mob rule checks. With that gone,

No promise that explosions are gone, or that trukks will get any kind of save unfortunately.

Here are what we know so far:

SM Dreadnought: T7 W8 3+
Gorkanaught: T8 W18 3+
Leman Russ: T8 W12 3+

So armor ~13 seems to be T8 and armor ~12 seems to be T7. So I guess trukks will get T5 and kanz T6? Or both T6 and trukks with less save?

I would be happy with a T6 W6 4+ trukk.

EDIT: Hmm thinking about it, a trukk should be pretty easy to damage (compared to a kan, for example) but could have more wounds. So T5 W8 4+? We won't know for sure until the release or the faction focus article...

 davou wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The only thing wrong with trukks was the explosion that took out half of the boyz, then pinned them, or caused 2 mob rule checks. With that gone,

No promise that explosions are gone, or that trukks will get any kind of save unfortunately.

Every statline of we've seen so far has a save on it, so I'd be very surprised if our vehicles didn't get SOME kind of save.

Also we've seen some vehicle damage charts, and none of them have had an 'explosion' type effect. It's consistently a reduction in stats as wounds decrease.

Here's my bet: our vehicles won't start degrading until late in their wound pile, but then drop off REALLY dramatically once they're almost dead...

I am hopping the trukks have a cool rule for ramshackle.

 Geemoney wrote:
I am hopping the trukks have a cool rule for ramshackle.

Bring back kareening trukks please.

 JohnU wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I am hopping the trukks have a cool rule for ramshackle.

Bring back kareening trukks please.

Best rule in the game! I got so many free charges off of an extra movement boost in the enemy shooting phase from a trukk going out of control

If most things cap at T8 then S5 seems pretty versatile. It damages T4 on 3+, and T6-T9 on a 5+, so it's pretty good vs MEQ and passable vs what most vehicles as far as we know fall into. Unless we get nerfs to weapon strength, ork sources of S5 are warbikes, Lobbas, nobs, big shootas, and snazzguns. Those could be decent TAC choices.

Alternatively if light transports like rhinos, tauroxes, and raiders are T6, and big choppas keep +2S and get any rending value, then trukks full of big choppa nobs could be good at hunting light armor, being around as effective as MANz at killing transports for probably less points.

And if anyone else caught the thread on turning vehicles to block LOS now that armor value are gone, the historically problematic long sides and small front footprint of the BW might become a boon if vehicles can move that way. There was some bellyaching about abusing model size, but for orks it can be excused because drifting is probably fluffier than just going forward-- whether the drifting is intentional or due to engine problems.

7 BWs turned sideways covers pretty much the entire short length of the board. Might be able to get away with 6 if they all have rollas.