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The Nights watch - a bunch of murders and thieves, are likely easily lead by the strong - he has just proved himself by killing the old leader. Quite a few also believed as the boy did -that he was letting the wildlings in to cause havoc.........

With Snow dead - what is there to fight over?...........in fact most are probably hoping that they can now head south to safety like Snows own pet Fat Sam.

Agreed that the Dorne storyline likely has not much to offer - I should love the sexy girls into killing but it was just ok..........disapointed that the cool bodyguard was useless and killed by a small knife - poisioned I assume....

To be fair the army of the undead seems to keep getting lost in the snow and never actually getting anywhere ;(

They could have done that by sending Bronn to the Riverlands with Jaime instead of the stupid and ultimately pointless Dorne tangent.

They could have had the whole Myrcella assassination plotline take place without Jaimes involvement, with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes killing her in Dorne (not at Sea), then Doran either executes them all and ships Myrcella's remains back to King's Landing and voila, Dorne is concluded and remains a loyal vassal of the Lannisters, and the show need waste no more screen time.

Or Doran arrests Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, dispatches the Sand Snakes on various missions to avoid execution and confides in Ellaria that he was plotting revenge all along and she just forced his hand. That sets Dorne up for a direct conflict with the Lannisters (same end result as Season 6 Ep 1) without being pants on head stupid.


In fact it looks like they'll be doing the Riverlands after all as it appears major characters will be converging on Riverrun (Jaime - leading the Lannister army, Podrick - seen in a Lannister camp being jumped by someone who looks like Bronne or possibly a BwoB Outlaw, and Brienne).




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The only way the show can redeem Jaime's plotline now in my eyes would be to introduce Lady Stoneheart.

Huge, imposing bodyguard protected with (I guess) the best light armor the realm has to offer gets stabbed by a girl with a knife -> goes down as if struck by lightning.

Kool story brah.

Also, I don't consider myself a feminist, but seriously, the writers of these series do seem to have a few underlying issues with female characters. The Dornish women just take the cake here, Ellaria in the books is a pretty balanced and level-minded woman, in the TV series she's borderline insane with revenge. Meanwhile the Sand Snakes are depicted as murderous psychopaths who seem to enjoy killing for the sake of it.

The bastardization of Dorne and virtually its whole cast (to the point that Dorne's main character in the books, Arianne, doesn't even appear in the TV series) pretty much ruined the 5th season for me - it wasn't the only issue I had, but it was the worst one. I see things are not improving.

Melisandre being super duper old when she takes her necklace off is as pointless as unnecessary at this point. Her whole character seems to have been reduced to the mandatory ration of teats per episode.

I'm really annoyed about the Dorne storyline. It's my favourite part of the books, and I think its a waste of some great characters.

I never got into the Dorne story in the books but yeah..................

I am not sure why they bothered with it in the show as none of it really matters in terms of the actual show apart from the death of Marcella.........I would not be surprised if that's the last we see of Dorne - same as a few other characters like the guy raising the dead in the north....

Female characters - well they have a good variety I think, same as for the men so I have no issues with a few psycho ones, if you compare and contrast: Sansa, Aria, Dany, Fat Sam's girl, Margery, Cersi, Melissande, etc

Obviously the bodyguard was just employed for his looks..........

Yeah... Dorne was the sole let down for me with the episode. Just blows my mind how they've ruined such a great portion of the story.

As a really big fan of (the first three) books, I'm quite annoyed with the way tv Dorne is compared to book Dorne. I know they are basically two different entities by now, but that is besides the point!

Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.

I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!

Honestly reading these comments makes me glad I find Martin's writing style intolerably tedious and so never got past the first novel, so the only thing I found annoying about the Dorne arc on the show is the criminal underuse of Siddig.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.

I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!

You didn't see the trailer then? Cersei is definitely going to have Clegane murder the Sparrows lol.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.

I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!

You didn't see the trailer then? Cersei is definitely going to have Clegane murder the Sparrows lol.

"I choose Violence" was the best thing in that trailer - so very cool

re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........

I thought they would have to bring back Snow (unfortunately) but Black Sails has just kiiled a major and much loved male character so maybe not............Is the actor doing other things?

 Mr Morden wrote:


re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........

THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?

Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........

THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?

Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...

I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........

THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?

Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...

Er yeah - they had a long lingering shot of the main actress disrobing in all her glory and then did the "actually i am old and very very tired bit" - how did you see it? They did not need her to be naked at all - but as I said no other T+A in the epsiode - not that I am complaining.

I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.

When did that happen? Did i miss something?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........

THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?

Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...

Er yeah - they had a long lingering shot of the main actress disrobing in all her glory and then did the "actually i am old and very very tired bit" - how did you see it? They did not need her to be naked at all - but as I said no other T+A in the epsiode - not that I am complaining.

I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.

When did that happen? Did i miss something?

I just had a different idea on why that scene was included. Her plans aren't really falling apart, she was just backing the wrong horse.

she sees jon dead, she remembers seeing him in her predictions attacking winterfell, ?????, then she's going to bed. I think she just brought jon back before going to bed, because it was the first time she removed her necklace to see the real her.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I never got into the Dorne story in the books but yeah..................

I am not sure why they bothered with it in the show as none of it really matters in terms of the actual show apart from the death of Marcella.........I would not be surprised if that's the last we see of Dorne - same as a few other characters like the guy raising the dead in the north....

I doubt it. Having Ellaria and the Sand Snakes launch a coup deposing and murdering Doran and Trystane Martell opened a MASSIVE can of worms. Dorne is now in open revolt against the Lannisters, and direct conflict is inevitable.

This does not at all indicate to me that they want to neatly wrap up Dorne as a loose end to dedicate screentime to more important plotlines. If they wanted to tie off this loose end, they should have just had Doran execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for the murder of Myrcella and remain loyal to the Iron Throne, and have the Lannisters imprison Trystane indefinitely as a hostage to keep Dorne in check. The Lannisters have more important matters to deal with than declare war on Dorne to punish them for assassinating Myrcella. I would have much preferred that. If you aren't going to do a proper adaptation of the Dorne plotline, then its better to just wrap it up and cut it from the show, than to feth it up with poor fan fiction.

No, this indicates to me that they want to give even more screen time to Dorne.

I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.


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Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.

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Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

or maybe the magic is killing her and she is actually not that old ........................Magic in GOT seldom seems to be a good thing.......

I would be shocked if they did not bring JS back in the next few episodes......

They have made sure that Dany is not coming across the water this season in amuch less annoying way than GRM but this does mean we could see lots more of the filler characters turn up (sadly).

I would guess we have to suffer more Bran and "not elves" next week and should be due a visit to the wandering undead horde. Intrigued as to what happens with Margery.......... and of course we "I choose violence" to look forward to.

Anyone else of importance we have not seen yet?

Can't say as I know about other important developments. The only story line I really care about anymore in the show is the ice zombies.

I can see your point about the Red Witch. Maybe the mojo she's been up to is causing her to age rapidly. Or she could be like 1000 years old or something.

 jasper76 wrote:
Can't say as I know. The only story line I really care about anymore in the show is the ice zombies.

They are just waiting till Elsa shows up - I am sure someone has written that fan fiction.......

Would be cool to get more info on the ice guys....

 Mr Morden wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Can't say as I know. The only story line I really care about anymore in the show is the ice zombies.

They are just waiting till Elsa shows up - I am sure someone has written that fan fiction.......

Would be cool to get more info on the ice guys....

Yeah...I mean it looks like they have a whole leadership structure going on. Would be cool to get some Ring-Wraith-esque background on what's going on there...maybe the mystery is kept vague to keep up interest.

In the wrap up after the show, the producers say that the scene shows that she's hundreds of years old (paraphrasing).

However, that COULD mean that her magic is making her look like she's hundreds of years old.

Maybe.

I choose to believe that she is hundreds of years old.

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.


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Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.

In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.

Well that and giving birth to Shadow monsters................

I think she has whatever magic the plot needs

I think she does things that most followers of the Lord of Light can't/won't do...

There can't be light without the dark!

Then birthed a darkness monster in one of the odder scenes in the show.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.

In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.

Yeah, although I haven't read the books (after Book 1 anyways), that's the impression I got from the scene. That she is ancient and her beauty and (relative) youth are a magical disguise.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Honestly reading these comments makes me glad I find Martin's writing style intolerably tedious and so never got past the first novel, so the only thing I found annoying about the Dorne arc on the show is the criminal underuse of Siddig.

I read the Silmarillion. George RR Martin is a cakewalk by comparison.


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 jasper76 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.

I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.

But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.

In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.

Yeah, although I haven't read the books (after Book 1 anyways), that's the impression I got from the scene. That she is ancient and her beauty and (relative) youth are a magical disguise.

Its not confirmed in the books (yet) but it is heavily hinted at. In Melisandres single POV chapter (in the last book), she thinks about how she's practised her art for "years beyond count". And she makes similar remarks through the entire series.


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 Alpharius wrote:
I think she does things that most followers of the Lord of Light can't/won't do...

*Cough* Necrophilia.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
I thought they would have to bring back Snow (unfortunately) but Black Sails has just kiiled a major and much loved male character so maybe not............Is the actor doing other things?

Jon Snow's voice was in the trailer. The trailer itself spoiled his return.

Anyone else get the impression that they are just running out of ideas for what to do with the Dragon Queen while the stuff in Esteros happens? She's literally right back to where she started from in Season 1.

No, I think essentially they are going to use this season to give her the Dothraki which truly gives her her army to go with her dragons. She's in a very different place than season 1. She has devoted followers searching for her, she has full grown dragons (one of which seems to at least like her a little), and she has a confidence and gravitas about her that didn't exist in season 1.

I like the episode. Davos is by far one of my favorite characters. But the interplay between several pairs of actors was excellent this week. Davos and Thorne, Tyrion and the Spider, Mormont and Dario were all excellent. And finally seeing Brianne lay it down was nice. That and Theon seeming to find himself again and his devotion to Sansa while at the same time slightly slipping back into that older brother role.

Overall a good start to the season even if the Dorne thing annoyed me. The bodyguard going down to a tiny knife that probably wouldn't have made it to anything vital (that dude is prett big) and then the kid getting the spear to the back of the head. Meh. Though Jaime is going to be awesomely wrathful this season.