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 trexmeyer wrote:
As the head of a house and Tywin's chief enforcer, Gregor was undoubtedly in a position of power up until his demise. He was probably one of the 50-100 most influential individuals in the realm at one point and certainly one of the most feared.

Your point? His was also raised to such position by Tywin. It's not like the pearly gates just opened up and laid a path for a psychotic killing machine to become a powerful figure. Someone even more powerful put him there, to be a tool for his use.

Once Gregor truly went mad dog, the Crown tried to put him down, but again, more powerful figures, that wanted him alive for their purposes, interferred.

One thing to keep in mind, and I think the book did a better job at this, is that Gregor is officially dead. He was poisoned, died a slow and agonizing death, and his skull was send to Dorne as justice for his murder of their family.

Ser Strong is a new member of the Kingsguard and some may have their just suspicion of who, or what, he is, but he does not have the titles or influence that Gregor had.

It doesn't matter a whole big bunch now that GoT officially wussed out and rez'd a major character (his resurrection was as disappointing as it was inevitable), but I was confused about this:

Who where the guys holed up with the onion knight in the room at castle black?

What were they doing?

How did they get snow's body?

Why were they being tricked into leaving to be executed?

How and why was davos involved at all? Couldn't have been less of his fight.

My best guess is that they were loyalist watchmen, but why did they go to davos for help?

I mean, I get why snow was murdered, and there seemed to be quite a few watchmen who were on both sides of the fence about it. Why were they letting the instigator go around to murder guests and other brothers willy-nilly?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It doesn't matter a whole big bunch now that GoT officially wussed out and rez'd a major character (his resurrection was as disappointing as it was inevitable), but I was confused about this:

Who where the guys holed up with the onion knight in the room at castle black?

What were they doing?

How did they get snow's body?

Why were they being tricked into leaving to be executed?

How and why was davos involved at all? Couldn't have been less of his fight.

My best guess is that they were loyalist watchmen, but why did they go to davos for help?

I mean, I get why snow was murdered, and there seemed to be quite a few watchmen who were on both sides of the fence about it. Why were they letting the instigator go around to murder guests and other brothers willy-nilly?

Did you watch the first episode, at all?

I did, but I must be a big stupid person or something.

To be honest, I'm usually painting a lot when watching TV, but I'm usually not this clueless. And I'm 100% on everything else that is going on, just that whole 'we're not coming out of the closet' seemed confusing to me.

Davos was the one who found John's body. Dolourus Ed was the only one remaining at Castle Black who was a part of Johns class, and his closest friend. The others were those who were not included in the plan to kill John, so yeah were most likely loyalists to John. Davos didn't know what was going on, but after talking to the traitors, he knew that he was going to be killed with the others, so that's why he threw in with them, on top of the whole he's a man of honor thing.

I guess here's my problem - were the people holed up with davos the only people loyal to snow in the castle?

I ask because they had that big meeting where the guy stood up and said "yeah, I killed snow" and quite a few people got upset.

Maybe not lets-lynch-this-guy-right-now upset, but they weren't happy.

Would everyone be cool with this guy murdering another 5 or so brothers for being loyal? Because he was clearly going to kill them all.

I mean, clearly the majority were against snow, and not entirely without reason (from a certain point of view), but it's surprising that so many were cool with murdering snow's friends and guests, too.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It doesn't matter a whole big bunch now that GoT officially wussed out and rez'd a major character (his resurrection was as disappointing as it was inevitable), but I was confused about this:

How does that make it disappointing?

And it was hardly inevitable. Resurrection is not a skill thats inherent to individual priests - they cannot choose to resurrect people on a whim. They pray to the "Lord of Light", and he decides whether to grant that prayer. Its likely that "he" only deigns to resurrect people who serve his designs in some way.

The fact that the Lord of Light deigned to bring Jon Snow (and Beric Dondarrion) back to life means that Jon Snow has a role to play in his plans.

Who where the guys holed up with the onion knight in the room at castle black?

The few remaining Jon loyalists.

What were they doing?

Not dying. They were afraid that they'd be murdered too, because they're the last notable Brothers still loyal to Jon.

How did they get snow's body?

They picked him up.

Why were they being tricked into leaving to be executed?

Because Alliser Thorne wanted to deal with the loyalists quickly to prevent infighting in the Night's Watch. Alliser almost certainly knows that Melisandre is a sorcerress and possibly fears that she'll do something sorcerous with Jon's body. In any case, it didn't work. The loyalists weren't fooled, they knew they would be killed the moment they stepped outside.

How and why was davos involved at all? Couldn't have been less of his fight.

Because his King is dead, and he's looking for a leader to follow, particularly someone capable of fighting the White Walkers. Doesn't matter if its his fight or not, because Winter is coming and Davos knows it. He knows that they need Jon.

My best guess is that they were loyalist watchmen, but why did they go to davos for help?

They didn't. He was simply the first one to discover Jon's corpse, and he took charge, telling them to get Jon indoors.

I mean, I get why snow was murdered, and there seemed to be quite a few watchmen who were on both sides of the fence about it. Why were they letting the instigator go around to murder guests and other brothers willy-nilly?

Because there was widespread discontent and doubt in the Watch over Jon's leadership (he was a radical after all) and Thorne was simply doing what the majority of them were too afraid to do. Of the rest of them, some may have been outraged by the murder, but too afraid to stick their neck out and resist Thorne.

Compare the situation to Roman history. Jon Snow was Julius Ceasar. Alliser Thorne was Marcus Brutus. And maybe Ser Davos is Mark Antony.

Really, all of your questions were answered in the episode.

Interestingly how the dog of all things was the thing to signify where everything was going to go.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interestingly how the dog of all things was the thing to signify where everything was going to go.

Thanks Edithae.

You know, interesting point about the LoL. If he brings back people who he finds integral to his plans, like snow........then what the hell sort of epic plans does he have in store for dondarrion to keep rezzing him over and over again?

And by extension, does this mean snow gets a free pass from death as long as a red priest is around?

Define 'constant'... i.e. There haven't been that many. There have been more permanent deaths by far.

 trexmeyer wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm not too happy about Jon Snow's resurrection...or the constant resurrections of other characters for that matter. ASOIAF is drifting dangerously into comic book territory if characters can't stay dead. At least there are some limitations in place and wounds aren't fully healed as well.

Err... constant resurrections? There's only been Beric Dondarrion and Gregor Clegane until now. Hardly constant. Anyone else who came back became zombies.

You're forgetting Lady whatshername and the fact Dondarrion has done it about 5540505 times.

 trexmeyer wrote:
You're forgetting Lady whatshername and the fact Dondarrion has done it about 5540505 times.

I'm talking about the TV show. Lady Stoneheart doesn't look like she'll be making an appearance and Beric Dondarrion seems only to serve as a demonstration of the power of Rh'llor, The Lord of Light.

And in the books, those are the only resurrections so far (LSH and BD).

Not a great epsiode but some good bits.

The good (IMO)
Loved the Tyrion and the Dragons, nicely played, some good progression (finally)
Ramsey is such a great bad guy - hopefully he will be in it for many epsiodes to come.
All the Kings Landing elements were good -setting up for some future nice progression and I so want Jamie to take Sir Strong to the next meeting.........Maybe Cersei can get Tommen to grow a spine.
Everyone I think likes " A man asks a girl" even if tis not at all clear if it has any relevance to the plot - its fun and nicely played.
No sign of the irritating ninja Snake girls - Hurrah! Maybe thats them done and good ridence.
Amusing the way the dire wolf is able to change size to fit the scene Useful power that.............

the Meh
Oh look Jon Snows not dead - shocking.........yawn..........
The Chthulu worshippers have a new and mad boss - seriously Cthulhu worshipers and they are still dull.

and the bad
Oh god we are being dragged back to the turgid and crap storyline in Meeren that GRM regurgataed in Dance to ensure that Dany does nt get to Westros - seriously...............
Bran - Vaguely interesting flash back by a pointless and dull character.
The Nights Watch - how pointless are these guys now. There is what 30 of them to defend a wall that spans a continent which brings me to:
How long does it take for an undead horde to reach the Don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n wall. Seriously guys - get sat nav
Why didn;t Jon Snow turn into an Ice Zombie - besides his almighty plot shields

Having BOTH Clegane and Ramsay (both arguably sociopaths) in positions of power seems to be a bit of a stretch. Someone that barbaric and unhinged can only be tolerated for so long.

Rubbish - You mean unlike all the historical characters that did the same or much much worse - Elizabeth Bathroy is a good example of how nobility could and did do unspeakable things and do it for years - she killed several hundred girls in a similar manner to Ramsey......There are very very many examples of people doing unspeakable things and living long and full lives, even being lausded by their peers....

According to all testimony, Báthory's initial victims were the adolescent daughters of local peasants, many of whom were lured to Csejte by offers of well-paid work as maidservants in the castle. Later, she is said to have begun to kill daughters of the lesser gentry, who were sent to her gynaeceum by their parents to learn courtly etiquette. Abductions were said to have occurred as well.[20] The atrocities described most consistently included severe beatings, burning or mutilation of hands, biting the flesh off the faces, arms and other body parts, freezing or starving to death. The use of needles was also mentioned by the collaborators in court.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Thanks Edithae.

You know, interesting point about the LoL. If he brings back people who he finds integral to his plans, like snow........then what the hell sort of epic plans does he have in store for dondarrion to keep rezzing him over and over again?

Whatever plan the LoL had for Dondarrion was foiled when Dondarrion...

And by extension, does this mean snow gets a free pass from death as long as a red priest is around?

Yes. I don't think Melisandre is going to live much longer though. Jon and Davos still don't know what she did to Shireen, do they? They only know that shes dead.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Yes. I don't think Melisandre is going to live much longer though. Jon and Davos still don't know what she did to Shireen, do they? They only know that shes dead.

Does anyone still alive know what she did - I can't recall if people deserted after she burnt her?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Yes. I don't think Melisandre is going to live much longer though. Jon and Davos still don't know what she did to Shireen, do they? They only know that shes dead.

Does anyone still alive know what she did - I can't recall if people deserted after she burnt her?

They did, but they likely went in all directions but North. Many would have defected to the Boltons - indeed, that may one factor that explains how the Boltons had such a huge army.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Yes. I don't think Melisandre is going to live much longer though. Jon and Davos still don't know what she did to Shireen, do they? They only know that shes dead.

Does anyone still alive know what she did - I can't recall if people deserted after she burnt her?

They did, but they likely went in all directions but North. Many would have defected to the Boltons - indeed, that may one factor that explains how the Boltons had such a huge army.

Hmm Sir Davos not likely to find out anytime soon I guess..............mayeb the undead horde will turn up soon.................I doubt it.

Davos was seen in the trailer at what appears to be the site of Shireen's burning. I expect now that the situation in Castle Black has been stabilized , he's going to go looking for answers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It doesn't matter a whole big bunch now that GoT officially wussed out and rez'd a major character (his resurrection was as disappointing as it was inevitable), but I was confused about this:

I always figured Jon had to die to be released from his vows to the nights watch. He'd never abandon his vows voluntarily, but now, he stood his watch and death released him. Now he is free to lead the wildlings to retake winterfell and become Melisandre's knight with a flaming sword.

Anyone else find it hilarious that at this completely expected turn of events the only person to gasp was Jon?

....


.. those dogs have eaten well recently though eh ?

lol just a bit!
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Though I found it ironic how Ramsay dealt with his dad. Red Wedding flashback anyone?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It doesn't matter a whole big bunch now that GoT officially wussed out and rez'd a major character (his resurrection was as disappointing as it was inevitable), but I was confused about this:

I always figured Jon had to die to be released from his vows to the nights watch. He'd never abandon his vows voluntarily, but now, he stood his watch and death released him. Now he is free to lead the wildlings to retake winterfell and become Melisandre's knight with a flaming sword.

Soooo Abandon the wall then................... didn't he previously think it was important or something.......to defend the realm.........

Well it will likely amuse the undead if the humans are fighting amongst themselves, that's if they ever arrive.

Maybe that's the grand plan - wonder aimlessly in the snow until most of the human fighting forces are exhausted or dead and then maybe wonder over the wall / raise the corpses.

The Starks have always upheld their duty to defend the North, and John Snow would do no different even if he wasn't part of the Night's Watch anymore.

He was offered the option to become legitimized and take the name of Stark, but just like Ned he is a man of honor and he swore an oath to be part of the watch until his death. Even if it would make sense to take that offer, his pride and honor would not let him.

But now that he has fulfilled his oath, he could take the name of Stark.

Of course we also have another Stark that can take that title, and she is heading his way. Which would leave John Snow open to take that other last name...

 d-usa wrote:
The Starks have always upheld their duty to defend the North, and John Snow would do no different even if he wasn't part of the Night's Watch anymore.

He was offered the option to become legitimized and take the name of Stark, but just like Ned he is a man of honor and he swore an oath to be part of the watch until his death. Even if it would make sense to take that offer, his pride and honor would not let him.

But now that he has fulfilled his oath, he could take the name of Stark.

Of course we also have another Stark that can take that title, and she is heading his way. Which would leave John Snow open to take that other last name...

Wasn't that Stanis who offered him to be legitimised - so that's meaningless now.

Actually there are several Starks wondering around in the snow who have better claims than Jon - however he has an army, and as we know "might makes right."

However if he now abandons the wall and then uses his horde of Wildlings to attack Ramsey and co, some might see him as another warlord looking for power - which is what he would be. If he wants to make that move - he would need to take Sansa to wife and then deal with Bran and co when they come back, depending on their reaction to his usurpation. Whatever the outcome, the North will be weakened by the fighting.

Maybe being dead will have toughened him up and mean he will do the things that need to be done as a warlord/leader.

Lastly maybe he won't be as honour bound / foolish as Ned and get the rest of the Starks killed.

Decent enough episode, I'd echo that it looks like a wrap up next season/season 8. The deaths are starting to come fairly fast and if for the love of god, they can wrap up the draenyrs angle of messing about in who knows where, should build up nicely.

Tyrions line about the punch in the face was terrific