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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

S4 is NOT powerful in this game. Especially when T5 is the new T4.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

S4 is NOT powerful in this game. Especially when T5 is the new T4.

Try and read what I wrote. It's relative power in game is accurate. Compare it to the Lasgun, which is more powerful than modern day rifles.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

lasguns are clearly very weak weapons - they function well with the gard because they have nearly unlimited ammo and they have nearly unlimitted soldiers.

AP- is a good indicator that it's a weak weapon. If you can't penetrate flak armor, mesh armor, or ork "clothing/skin" - it's weak. my .308 rifle (similar round to ak47 in terms of pentration) can penetrate 2 inches of concrete which is clearly tougher than all of these things.

Lasgun hits like a 9 mm - but has unlimited ammo - that's why it's useful.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

lasguns are clearly very weak weapons - they function well with the gard because they have nearly unlimited ammo and they have nearly unlimitted soldiers.

AP- is a good indicator that it's a weak weapon. If you can't penetrate flak armor, mesh armor, or ork "clothing/skin" - it's weak. my .308 rifle (similar round to ak47 in terms of pentration) can penetrate 2 inches of concrete which is clearly tougher than all of these things.

Lasgun hits like a 9 mm - but has unlimited ammo - that's why it's useful.

No, lasguns are more powerful than modern day rifles, you need to consider what their shooting at, Orks are as tough as SMs, sometimes even tougher, SMs are heavily armored super soldiers. Flack armour is very good protection, our current armies would love to have it, it's just that it pales in comparison to .75 explosive rounds, blasts of thousands of super-strong mono-molecular discs, pulses of magnetically accelerated plasma, and beams of energy that disintragate what they hit.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

lasguns are clearly very weak weapons - they function well with the gard because they have nearly unlimited ammo and they have nearly unlimitted soldiers.

AP- is a good indicator that it's a weak weapon. If you can't penetrate flak armor, mesh armor, or ork "clothing/skin" - it's weak. my .308 rifle (similar round to ak47 in terms of pentration) can penetrate 2 inches of concrete which is clearly tougher than all of these things.

Lasgun hits like a 9 mm - but has unlimited ammo - that's why it's useful.

No, lasguns are more powerful than modern day rifles, you need to consider what their shooting at, Orks are as tough as SMs, sometimes even tougher, SMs are heavily armored super soldiers. Flack armour is very good protection, our current armies would love to have it, it's just that it pales in comparison to .75 explosive rounds, blasts of thousands of super-strong mono-molecular discs, pulses of magnetically accelerated plasma, and beams of energy that disintragate what they hit.

Ork T-shirts are just leather vests and sometimes an iron shoulder pad though. And it can still stop a lasgun.

In comparison, a bolt shell is comparable to 20mm autocannon rounds of today.



Keep in mind,

Death of Antagonis wrote:each Space Marine was a main battle tank with legs

after all.

And bolters can kill Orks and guardsmen alike in one hit, your point? Yes bolters are powerful, it's just that they aren't more powerful than other race's weapons.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And bolters can kill Orks and guardsmen alike in one hit, your point? Yes bolters are powerful, it's just that they aren't more powerful than other race's weapons.

Depends on the given bolter, and the given weapon you compare it to.

The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

...The same round can be comfortably fired one-handed and rip off your arms at the same time now?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

...The same round can be comfortably fired one-handed and rip off your arms at the same time now?

Yep, because GW is amazingly inconsistent. If you haven't figured that out by now, I'm truly surprised. It's like how marines can be 7' tall and 14' tall at the same time.

edit: and really, even if they use different bolters, it doesn't matter, because the direct comparisons of other weapons to bolters used by space marines make any attempt to have them be more powerful null and void.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

S4 is NOT powerful in this game. Especially when T5 is the new T4.

Try and read what I wrote. It's relative power in game is accurate. Compare it to the Lasgun, which is more powerful than modern day rifles.

Given the rate at which they "wound" unarmored humans, I'm gonna have to disagree. In fact, I'd say most real-world weapons are better than 40K weapons. Because of ballistics, targeting, and range. 40k is the retro, inferior future. 40K is very much like Battletech in that way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

lasguns are clearly very weak weapons - they function well with the gard because they have nearly unlimited ammo and they have nearly unlimitted soldiers.

AP- is a good indicator that it's a weak weapon. If you can't penetrate flak armor, mesh armor, or ork "clothing/skin" - it's weak. my .308 rifle (similar round to ak47 in terms of pentration) can penetrate 2 inches of concrete which is clearly tougher than all of these things.

Lasgun hits like a 9 mm - but has unlimited ammo - that's why it's useful.

Pretty sure Serpent Shields are AP - and they tear through everything pretty well.

They are still Lasers, they have no penetration that's the key, the fluff states that a fully charged lasgun shot could tear an arm clean off.

Either way, with MEQ being the standard by which everything is defined, it is the average and thus everyone builds to kill MEQ, as a result what should be an okay statline and unit is what everything is keyed towards being killed through either large amounts of painful wounds (SS), 3+ ignoring weapon (Plasma, Shurikens and such), and as such having an expensive statline that is unable to be used towards paying points for it tends to be a waste. Tacticals are a waste in melee but still have WS4/S4 anyways that they pay for.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

...The same round can be comfortably fired one-handed and rip off your arms at the same time now?

Yep, because GW is amazingly inconsistent. If you haven't figured that out by now, I'm truly surprised. It's like how marines can be 7' tall and 14' tall at the same time.

I've never seen Marines taller than 10' and that was 1d4chan so I doubt that it's canon.

9', 8', 8'6", 7'6", 7', and 5'6" ish, that I have seen.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

S4 is NOT powerful in this game. Especially when T5 is the new T4.

Try and read what I wrote. It's relative power in game is accurate. Compare it to the Lasgun, which is more powerful than modern day rifles.

Given the rate at which they "wound" unarmored humans, I'm gonna have to disagree. In fact, I'd say most real-world weapons are better than 40K weapons. Because of ballistics, targeting, and range. 40k is the retro, inferior future. 40K is very much like Battletech in that way.

Wounds a normal human on a 3+, not bad at all in a game of chance. There is only one level better than that, and that is reaching into the level of actually high-powered weapons.

He talks about the lasgun.

Lasguns wound humans on 4+. And wounds capping out at 2+ is absurd in its own right. Modern weapons have hit rates in the 95%+ range and are designed for very high kill rates against their intended targets.

Even so, 3+ against a regular human is abysmal given the weapon's description.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

...The same round can be comfortably fired one-handed and rip off your arms at the same time now?

Yep, because GW is amazingly inconsistent. If you haven't figured that out by now, I'm truly surprised. It's like how marines can be 7' tall and 14' tall at the same time.

I've never seen Marines taller than 10' and that was 1d4chan so I doubt that it's canon.

9', 8', 8'6", 7'6", 7', and 5'6" ish, that I have seen.

And exaggeration, but the point still stands. GW writers are inconsistent. It's like how bolters are caseless, and use cases, at the same time.

That's why I largely ignore GW's fluff. The game is what matters.

Martel732 wrote:
Lasguns wound humans on 4+. And wounds capping out at 2+ is absurd in its own right. Modern weapons have hit rates in the 95%+ range and are designed for very high kill rates against their intended targets.

Even so, 3+ against a regular human is abysmal given the weapon's description.

That's because it's a game of chance. Things are given a greater chance to survive. A SM hit by a railgun has the samechance to survive a plasma rifle shot, even though the railgun is overly more powerful. If you want to alwas deal damage, perhaps a game of chance that has not 100% is not for you.

It's more a problem of the D6 system. I find the RPGs more enjoyable with D100s. Even D10 or D20 would help 40k a lot.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Lasguns wound humans on 4+. And wounds capping out at 2+ is absurd in its own right. Modern weapons have hit rates in the 95%+ range and are designed for very high kill rates against their intended targets.

Even so, 3+ against a regular human is abysmal given the weapon's description.

That's because it's a game of chance. Things are given a greater chance to survive. A SM hit by a railgun has the samechance to survive a plasma rifle shot, even though the railgun is overly more powerful. If you want to alwas deal damage, perhaps a game of chance that has not 100% is not for you.

Maybe not, but I own the models.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's more a problem of the D6 system. I find the RPGs more enjoyable with D100s. Even D10 or D20 would help 40k a lot.

Me too, the DW RPG can get a bit over the top at times, but it makes them feel infinitely more like the SMs depicted in fluff than they do on table top. It allows you to have spacemarines killing dozens of humans withough it being really un-fun for the other players.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.

lasguns are clearly very weak weapons - they function well with the gard because they have nearly unlimited ammo and they have nearly unlimitted soldiers.

AP- is a good indicator that it's a weak weapon. If you can't penetrate flak armor, mesh armor, or ork "clothing/skin" - it's weak. my .308 rifle (similar round to ak47 in terms of pentration) can penetrate 2 inches of concrete which is clearly tougher than all of these things.

Lasgun hits like a 9 mm - but has unlimited ammo - that's why it's useful.

Pretty sure Serpent Shields are AP - and they tear through everything pretty well.

They are still Lasers, they have no penetration that's the key, the fluff states that a fully charged lasgun shot could tear an arm clean off.

Either way, with MEQ being the standard by which everything is defined, it is the average and thus everyone builds to kill MEQ, as a result what should be an okay statline and unit is what everything is keyed towards being killed through either large amounts of painful wounds (SS), 3+ ignoring weapon (Plasma, Shurikens and such), and as such having an expensive statline that is unable to be used towards paying points for it tends to be a waste. Tacticals are a waste in melee but still have WS4/S4 anyways that they pay for.

ehh scatter lasers/serp sheilds are a pretty odd weapon. they have a profile more similar to what a very large low velocity slug would have - kinda like a cannon ball.

lasers are just heat energy essentially. They don't have any kenetic energy. So if they have high str (intensity)- their ap should go up similarly. Higher heat will always do better armor.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's more a problem of the D6 system. I find the RPGs more enjoyable with D100s. Even D10 or D20 would help 40k a lot.

Me too, the DW RPG can get a bit over the top at times, but it makes them feel infinitely more like the SMs depicted in fluff than they do on table top. It allows you to have spacemarines killing dozens of humans withough it being really un-fun for the other players.

Agreed, it's very good. You hit the cap for lift/push/carry weights pretty much at character creation, which is odd, and some other things are weird too (our Techmarine can leap something like sixteen meters) but otherwise it's a really solid game.

IMHO persistence is the character feat of the tough and robust Space Marines of the Warhammer universe, thanks to their power armour and superior genetics... But the abundance of AP3 weapons in the game means that most marines are grunts. Therefore, my suggestion would be to up the Armour Save to 2+ (and up the price accordingly as well). Terminators would be AP2 with Toughness 6. Simple and effective!

Riptides and Dreadknights have proven that your armour is not only affecting your save but also your T value, so I don't understand why Termies are not T5 or T6 already.

 Xenomancers wrote:

ehh scatter lasers/serp sheilds are a pretty odd weapon. they have a profile more similar to what a very large low velocity slug would have - kinda like a cannon ball.

lasers are just heat energy essentially. They don't have any kenetic energy. So if they have high str (intensity)- their ap should go up similarly. Higher heat will always do better armor.

Heat energy is kinetic energy

 ergotoxin wrote:
IMHO persistence is the character feat of the tough and robust Space Marines of the Warhammer universe, thanks to their power armour and superior genetics... But the abundance of AP3 weapons in the game means that most marines are grunts. Therefore, my suggestion would be to up the Armour Save to 2+ (and up the price accordingly as well). Terminators would be AP2 with Toughness 6. Simple and effective!

That works out better than many options, but that may shift the meta more towards super low AP weapons and alike, with many codexs following suit (and we sure as hell don't want any more riptide+IA equivalents). Really, the only way to truly fix these problems without just causing the buff/debuff spiral to continue is a from the ground up re-write, with no holding on to the old rules or worrying about cross edition-compatibility with old codexes.