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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ergotoxin wrote:
IMHO persistence is the character feat of the tough and robust Space Marines of the Warhammer universe, thanks to their power armour and superior genetics... But the abundance of AP3 weapons in the game means that most marines are grunts. Therefore, my suggestion would be to up the Armour Save to 2+ (and up the price accordingly as well). Terminators would be AP2 with Toughness 6. Simple and effective!

That works out better than many options, but that may shift the meta more towards super low AP weapons and alike, with many codexs following suit (and we sure as hell don't want any more riptide+IA equivalents). Really, the only way to truly fix these problems without just causing the buff/debuff spiral to continue is a from the ground up re-write, with no holding on to the old rules or worrying about cross edition-compatibility with old codexes.

I agree. No way that's going to happen though.

40k has built itself into a corner.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Riptides and Dreadknights have proven that your armour is not only affecting your save but also your T value, so I don't understand why Termies are not T5 or T6 already.

T5 termies would make sense (and broadsides after some changes with the HRR and HYMP).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The normal bolter, using normal bolts. If you want to talk special ammunition, that's an entirely different talk.

'Normal' bolters? Do you mean the ones normal humans comfortably fire one-handed, or do you mean the ones they can't even lift and whose recoil would rip off their arms even if they could?

It's not more powerful than any other bolter that uses the same goddam bolts.

...The same round can be comfortably fired one-handed and rip off your arms at the same time now?

There's no statistical difference in the tabletop game - which I assume we're using for reference, since we're talking about orks saving every sixth lasgun wound - between a bolter given to a guardsman sergeant and a bolter given to a marine.

Agreed on the tabletop, though, the extra variation really helps capture the feel of the universe and how powerful a marine might be. Also, it allows a better comparison with firearms - autoguns, which I always assumed to be fairly equivalent to real-world rifles, are about the same as a lasgun. The difference is that they can spit out shots at a much faster rate, but have much less ammo and aren't nearly as reliable.

Both are likely to be laughed off by an ork until you hit him a few times. Neither one is going to be much good against anyone in power armor, unless you're supported by various talents and orders or trying to suppress them. Assuming they CAN be suppressed.

It's much easier to make comparisons with a D100 system than a D6 one. I always looked at the tabletop as an extreme abstraction with concessions needed for gameplay. That ork didn't die to a single lasgun hit, the guardsman had it on semi-auto and was blazing away at the terrifying xenos beast. Nobody forced a combat knife through the marine's power armor in a straight fight, someone blasted at the joints at short range and jammed the blade in there. That kind of thing. Taking the tabletop game at face value just leads to all sorts of silliness.

Auto guns are also slightly less powerful than las guns, but with the accelerates RoF, It generally evens out to the same thing (unless you are playing DH1 with special ammo).

Only War has them at the same damage and range, with the major differences being Reliable for lasguns, rate of fire, and amount of ammo. Autoguns can get special ammunition, but that's offset by the lasgun's power settings.

That's the most up to date one I have, so I dunno if they changed it for DH2!

It has seemed to me that what most people who want "elite" SMs want crisis suits as troops. Which farsight has proved can work, but to keep similar unit sizes the entire SM FoC would have to be re-written, and it would need bigger models (about crisis sized, maybe a bit smaller), and completely new rules. Maybe make and "astarts bolter", a bit like a bolter burst cannon (18" S4 AP5 assault 3-4), and have them able to purchase a secondary special weapon which they can choose to use instead (melta, plasma, rockets, ect.) ect. 2W 4T 3+sv, about the same price as a naked crisis suits a base. Maybe give them pseudo T5, meaning they can only be IDed by S10 or things with ID. Give them an option to take a support system, probably something along the lines of stuff like individual buffs. A 4++, skyfire, split fire, ect.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It has seemed to me that what most people who want "elite" SMs want crisis suits as troops. Which farsight has proved can work, but to keep similar unit sizes the entire SM FoC would have to be re-written, and it would need bigger models (about crisis sized, maybe a bit smaller), and completely new rules. Maybe make and "astarts bolter", a bit like a bolter burst cannon (18" S4 AP5 assault 3-4), and have them able to purchase a secondary special weapon which they can choose to use instead (melta, plasma, rockets, ect.) ect. 2W 4T 3+sv, about the same price as a naked crisis suits a base. Maybe give them pseudo T5, meaning they can only be IDed by S10 or things with ID. Give them an option to take a support system, probably something along the lines of stuff like individual buffs. A 4++, skyfire, split fire, ect.

I think I'll just adress that topic by repeating my first post in the thread.

 Spinner wrote:
Only War has them at the same damage and range, with the major differences being Reliable for lasguns, rate of fire, and amount of ammo. Autoguns can get special ammunition, but that's offset by the lasgun's power settings.

That's the most up to date one I have, so I dunno if they changed it for DH2!

Actually, never mind, I'm just being stupid. I think I was remember auto pistols stats (1d10+2 I vs 1d10+3 I for autogun and E for las). Las guns had a longer effective range (10m, so +80?m max, and shorter point blank), and autoguns had the ability to do a 10 shot full auto, but they had a clip of 30, whereas lasguns had a clip of 60.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It has seemed to me that what most people who want "elite" SMs want crisis suits as troops. Which farsight has proved can work, but to keep similar unit sizes the entire SM FoC would have to be re-written, and it would need bigger models (about crisis sized, maybe a bit smaller), and completely new rules. Maybe make and "astarts bolter", a bit like a bolter burst cannon (18" S4 AP5 assault 3-4), and have them able to purchase a secondary special weapon which they can choose to use instead (melta, plasma, rockets, ect.) ect. 2W 4T 3+sv, about the same price as a naked crisis suits a base. Maybe give them pseudo T5, meaning they can only be IDed by S10 or things with ID. Give them an option to take a support system, probably something along the lines of stuff like individual buffs. A 4++, skyfire, split fire, ect.

I think I'll just adress that topic by repeating my first post in the thread.

Sounds about right.

The RPGs are not perfect. We've tweaked them a bit too. But we end up with something that's actually rather immersive, rather than 40k that is about as immersive as an 80's arcade game.

They great thing about FFGs system, is it's damn easy to write rules for. Especially for enemies, although I do tend to get rather complicates with mine.

I am not sure if you would like our RPG group - our Devastator used relentless devastation or whatsitsname and Metal Storm shells to kill 50 Fire Warriors in 5 seconds!

He got a bonus point of Renown for that because it was pretty damn badass, even if they were packed.

Heh, sounds about right for deathwatch.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

ehh scatter lasers/serp sheilds are a pretty odd weapon. they have a profile more similar to what a very large low velocity slug would have - kinda like a cannon ball.

lasers are just heat energy essentially. They don't have any kenetic energy. So if they have high str (intensity)- their ap should go up similarly. Higher heat will always do better armor.

Heat energy is kinetic energy

Theres a simple answer and an advanced answer to this.

The simple answer is that light has no mass and therefore can not have kinetic energy since kinetic energy is 1/2 mv^2.

The advanced answer is photons do have a small amount of mass but do not have a resting mass -

Relativistic dynamics tells us that energy E rest energy (0) and kinetic energy T are related by
E=E(0)+T
The photon is characterized by zero rest energy (E(0)=0) and so its energy is kinetic
E=T.
In the case of free (noninteracting) particles twe say that they have kinetic energy is E>R(0)

so yada yada yada...light is not really transfering a lot of kinetic enegy. Negligible when compared to something that has actual mass.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure if you would like our RPG group - our Devastator used relentless devastation or whatsitsname and Metal Storm shells to kill 50 Fire Warriors in 5 seconds!

He got a bonus point of Renown for that because it was pretty damn badass, even if they were packed.

Badass indeed - if a bit much for me personally, but we've got slightly different views of Marines. :p Still probably a cool moment on the tabletop! Bet the player was ecstatic.

I'd love to have a game of Only War at the same time as a game of Deathwatch, set during the middle of a massive set-piece battle. The squad and the kill-team probably wouldn't interact much, but they'd see each other's handiwork - maybe the guardsmen have to hide from a rampaging brood of Carnifex while planting demolition charges around a bridge to slow a tyranid advance, and the kill-team has to take the beasts out before they halt an armored counterattack. Maybe the marines need to scythe down waves of gaunts, breaking horde after horde...and then the guardsmen have to deal with the survivors of said firefight congregating on their position. Stuff like that.

Oh, er, right, back on topic.

I'd be in favor of a meeting-in-the-middle approach, honestly. Tone down some of the more over the top marine fluff so they're more elite shock troops than demigods, able to do what they do because of their ability to redeploy and concentrate force more than being superheroes, but maybe give them a bit of a bump in the wargame. It'd need to be done in the middle of a total rework to balance everything. I like Ashiraya's first post here, even if we'd probably go about it in different ways!

I personally enjoy the over-the-top parts of the setting - the fact that a Space Marine, on a personal level, is like a demigod of war next to a normal man (and that this kind of power is necessary to defend the Imperium) is part of the grimdark. This is not just SM > all; I consider Aspect Warriors about on par with Tactical Marines, for example. I just like the parts of the setting that highlights how hopelessly outmatched normal mortal men are in a war between gods and monsters.

 Spinner wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure if you would like our RPG group - our Devastator used relentless devastation or whatsitsname and Metal Storm shells to kill 50 Fire Warriors in 5 seconds!

He got a bonus point of Renown for that because it was pretty damn badass, even if they were packed.

Badass indeed - if a bit much for me personally, but we've got slightly different views of Marines. :p Still probably a cool moment on the tabletop! Bet the player was ecstatic.

I'd love to have a game of Only War at the same time as a game of Deathwatch, set during the middle of a massive set-piece battle. The squad and the kill-team probably wouldn't interact much, but they'd see each other's handiwork - maybe the guardsmen have to hide from a rampaging brood of Carnifex while planting demolition charges around a bridge to slow a tyranid advance, and the kill-team has to take the beasts out before they halt an armored counterattack. Maybe the marines need to scythe down waves of gaunts, breaking horde after horde...and then the guardsmen have to deal with the survivors of said firefight congregating on their position. Stuff like that.

Oh, er, right, back on topic.

I'd be in favor of a meeting-in-the-middle approach, honestly. Tone down some of the more over the top marine fluff so they're more elite shock troops than demigods, able to do what they do because of their ability to redeploy and concentrate force more than being superheroes, but maybe give them a bit of a bump in the wargame. It'd need to be done in the middle of a total rework to balance everything. I like Ashiraya's first post here, even if we'd probably go about it in different ways!

That's sort of how I've always imagined them (although I also generally imagine an extra 0 or two on army sizes). Space marines are super powerful, and many will rack up hundreds, if not thousands, of kills during there life, but it all depends on what they are facing. We've had assaults consisting of several squads of marines cut down by plasma fire before they can even get close, but at they same time, lasguns tend to do diddly to PA. Most of the time SMs will be facing humans (either defected guard or cultists, not usually known for having lots of plasma/melta weaponry), or orks (who, tough as they might be, tend to die in droves against SMs). Probably fewer than 2500 space marines total, however, have fought he tau (an army known for lots of plasma/high powered weaponry). Eldar have their hand in almost everything, but generally have other people do their fighting their battles for them. Tyranids are pretty easy to kill individualy (even guardsmen can do it), and don't really seem to me to be having a lots of ranged stuff that can really hurt SMs other than acid, which PA will still protect from for a while, but they are still mostly to the galactic east. CSMs are the only one which I find weird, them having generally identical weapons and armour, but I can only assume that they have been so fethed up with their lifetime of sex drugs and rock'n'roll, that they have all forgotten how to fight.

On the contrary, I imagine Guard do most of the heavy lifting towards more mundane foes like lesser Ork warbands and human enemies, whereas SM fight things that IG simply can't take on: like Eldar who run so fast the IG can't turn their guns fast enough to compensate, or Daemons who turn less mentally hardened men insane with their mere presence.

Depend on the story I guess. Marines are much more likely to be put against something like demons or elder than the guard are, but at the same time a small force of marines can turn the tide of battles, or even wars, if there are a few groups. It probably comes down to what that particular chapter/squad is good at. A SM squad that has had lots of experience against demons probably aren't going to be shipped off to fight against the tau.

Just as an aside, in Deathwatch 1 Horde Magnitude is not intended to represent 1 enemy, An enemy is about 5 Horde Magnitude, despending on what the enemy is.So if the Devastator wiped out 50 Mag in one turn, what the designers had in mind was that he killed around 10 Fire Warriors or something like that, not 50.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It doesn't necessarily represent killing either.

Depends on the size of the enemy IIRC (although It has been a while).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The way a heavy bolter is represented in fluff, coupled with the fact they are PCs, killing 10 FWs that quickly is very reasonable. FWs aren't really that tough, no more than regular humans, they just have better armour than guard. Their main thing is killing people from range.

Just before they were gunned down, mind you, our Ultramarine decided it was a good idea to poke out his head from cover. He was headshotted by all the Fire Warriors (he didn't even wear a helmet) and had to burn a fate point. Even then they scorched off his eyes and he had to replace them with cybernetics.

So yeah. Don't be headshotted by 60 Fire Warriors while not wearing a helmet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The way a heavy bolter is represented in fluff, coupled with the fact they are PCs, killing 10 FWs that quickly is very reasonable. FWs aren't really that tough, no more than regular humans, they just have better armour than guard. Their main thing is killing people from range.

If we are to believe the game, heavy bolter shells are also quite lethal for Fire Warriors, even through their armour.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

ehh scatter lasers/serp sheilds are a pretty odd weapon. they have a profile more similar to what a very large low velocity slug would have - kinda like a cannon ball.

lasers are just heat energy essentially. They don't have any kenetic energy. So if they have high str (intensity)- their ap should go up similarly. Higher heat will always do better armor.

Heat energy is kinetic energy

Theres a simple answer and an advanced answer to this.

The simple answer is that light has no mass and therefore can not have kinetic energy since kinetic energy is 1/2 mv^2.

The advanced answer is photons do have a small amount of mass but do not have a resting mass -

Relativistic dynamics tells us that energy E rest energy (0) and kinetic energy T are related by
E=E(0)+T
The photon is characterized by zero rest energy (E(0)=0) and so its energy is kinetic
E=T.
In the case of free (noninteracting) particles twe say that they have kinetic energy is E>R(0)

so yada yada yada...light is not really transfering a lot of kinetic enegy. Negligible when compared to something that has actual mass.

You're missing out E= hf (Planck constant multiplied by frequency).

You don't need mass to have kinetic energy if you're travelling at the speed of light (which only massless particles can do anyway).

Photons have momentum (and therefore exert forces as per Newtons second law) and energy, otherwise solar sails wouldn't work and photons could not cause ionisation.

To say that photons don't transfer a lot of energy is quite a dangerous statement. Get a high enough frequency (X-ray or Gamma ray) and they are transferring a lot of energy if they hit the right thing. As for momentum, radiation pressure had to be accounted for in the Viking missions otherwise it would have resulted in the spacecraft missing Mars by 15,000km, for example.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

ehh scatter lasers/serp sheilds are a pretty odd weapon. they have a profile more similar to what a very large low velocity slug would have - kinda like a cannon ball.

lasers are just heat energy essentially. They don't have any kenetic energy. So if they have high str (intensity)- their ap should go up similarly. Higher heat will always do better armor.

Heat energy is kinetic energy

Theres a simple answer and an advanced answer to this.

The simple answer is that light has no mass and therefore can not have kinetic energy since kinetic energy is 1/2 mv^2.

The advanced answer is photons do have a small amount of mass but do not have a resting mass -

Relativistic dynamics tells us that energy E rest energy (0) and kinetic energy T are related by
E=E(0)+T
The photon is characterized by zero rest energy (E(0)=0) and so its energy is kinetic
E=T.
In the case of free (noninteracting) particles twe say that they have kinetic energy is E>R(0)

so yada yada yada...light is not really transfering a lot of kinetic enegy. Negligible when compared to something that has actual mass.

You're missing out E= hf (Planck constant multiplied by frequency).

You don't need mass to have kinetic energy if you're travelling at the speed of light (which only massless particles can do anyway).

Photons have momentum (and therefore exert forces as per Newtons second law) and energy, otherwise solar sails wouldn't work and photons could not cause ionisation.

To say that photons don't transfer a lot of energy is quite a dangerous statement. Get a high enough frequency (X-ray or Gamma ray) and they are transferring a lot of energy if they hit the right thing. As for momentum, radiation pressure had to be accounted for in the Viking missions otherwise it would have resulted in the spacecraft missing Mars by 15,000km, for example.

It's not photons that make a solar sail work. Solar wind in a cornucopia of stuff - a lot that we are uncertain about. It's almost certainly plasma discharge from a star though.

I am agreeing with you though. Light does transfer some kenetic energy to objects it's just not a lot.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure if you would like our RPG group - our Devastator used relentless devastation or whatsitsname and Metal Storm shells to kill 50 Fire Warriors in 5 seconds!

I do not like RPG that are too much about throwing dice to simulate beating up bad guys. That works great on video game, but is boring as a RPG.
Last game I played, it was some Exquisite Replica, and after our whole group was arrested by the cops next to the body of a guy one of us shot down, I was the only one to walk out completely free, even though I failed ALL my dice rolls about the interrogation, because my alibi was that good. Who needs to roll dices when you can just play well .

(Uh, sorry about that )

DW is more run and gun fun. DH (and to some extent DH2), is often more intrigue and role-play focused, because your power level is not much more than NPCs (less in the case of many of the demons). This leads to you often doing things like investigations, infiltration, ect so you have enough proof to get the local arbites, ect on you side. Plus, it has sisters in it.

I personally feel that Space marines are well enough rounded that they don't need to be "MORE" elite. A lot of people complain about Terminators and Land Raiders but if you buff them your going to have to suffer a point increase because of how elite they already are. Space Marines are neither the most OP nor the weakest, they are in the top end of the middle, bordering on elite already.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I personally feel that Space marines are well enough rounded that they don't need to be "MORE" elite. A lot of people complain about Terminators and Land Raiders but if you buff them your going to have to suffer a point increase because of how elite they already are. Space Marines are neither the most OP nor the weakest, they are in the top end of the middle, bordering on elite already.

Only really due to Grav Cent Deathstars.

And no, Terminators are pretty poor especially for CSM for their cost.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I personally feel that Space marines are well enough rounded that they don't need to be "MORE" elite. A lot of people complain about Terminators and Land Raiders but if you buff them your going to have to suffer a point increase because of how elite they already are. Space Marines are neither the most OP nor the weakest, they are in the top end of the middle, bordering on elite already.

I agree


everything else should be less elite and killy.

Otherwise some flavor of 1.5 wounds would be nice. they seem to die just as quickly as guardsmen which is kinda sad :/

Giving them a 6+ or 5+ FNP might be interesting. They would be tougher against small arms, but still die against anti-tank weaponry (as they should).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Giving them a 6+ or 5+ FNP might be interesting. They would be tougher against small arms, but still die against anti-tank weaponry (as they should).

I feel it needs to be a 6+ otherwise i think plauge marines would be sad pandas. and so would icon of excess