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1. Special Issue Ammunition
This makes sense, because they are veterans. So, why don't they get special issue ammunition? It would make them much better at dealing with more varied types of enemies. They Should have Kraken (+6", -1AP), Hellfire (-3S, Poisoned (2+)), Dragonfire (Ignores Cover), Vengeance (-6", -2AP, Gets Hot) and Metalstorm (-1S, +1AP, Blast) rounds available to use in Assault 2 versions.

2. Power Weapons, Not Power Fists
The unit cost should be dropped by 2pts per model and this should be accommodated by dropping their power fists and giving them power weapons. This will allow them to not always go last in combat and actually strike at initiative

3. More Heavy Weapons
It makes them more of a credible shooting threat. Give a 5 man unit the ability to take 2 special weapons instead of just one and they should be able to take a larger range of heavy weapons.

4. Combi-Weapons
This makes them more versatile. Meltas make them tank-killers, Plasmas increase their effectiveness against heavy infantry and light vehicles, Flamers help them to clear out hordes and will make it a nightmare for people to charge them and Gravs help them against high toughness, high save infantry.

5. Drop Pods As Dedicated Transports
Think of the options you have with terminators: you either footslog them and take forever to get into combat, teleport them and have a serious chance of suffering a mishap or you have to invest in a teleport homer and place units where you want your terminators do deep strike, or you can pay 250pts for a metal box. Drop pods would mean they would have a cheaper and more reliable way of getting into play.

drop pods can't hold terminators, their bulky. But I think that the special issue ammo and the drop pod choices are not really that lore freindly or good. The drop pods plain don't work, and the ammo doesn't make sense, because terminators are a late stone wall threat or insertion force, sternguard are specialists with weapons.

Then change drop pods...

shake my head at your hasty reply.

Terminators shouldn't get access to Drop Pods, that's what teleport homers are for.

Meanwhile, I'm going to playtest T4(5) Terminators and storm bolters being Salvo 2/4 (with combi-bolters at Rapid Fire 2, Twin-Linked). They have "liquid" Toughness 5, meaning they still suffer Instant Death on Strength 8 and higher.

Why not just a second wound and a second heavy weapon. No point change.

I'd say that Terminator armour gives you +1T and allows you to fire overwatch at BS2.

I'd then remove the +1T from bikes and then Terminators would be fine.

 natpri771 wrote:
Then change drop pods...

A kneejerk response does not a sufficient case make.

 natpri771 wrote:
1. Special Issue Ammunition
This makes sense, because they are veterans. So, why don't they get special issue ammunition? It would make them much better at dealing with more varied types of enemies. They Should have Kraken (+6", -1AP), Hellfire (-3S, Poisoned (2+)), Dragonfire (Ignores Cover), Vengeance (-6", -2AP, Gets Hot) and Metalstorm (-1S, +1AP, Blast) rounds available to use in Assault 2 versions.

Keep the SIA as it is, no need to add the extra profiles or change it to Assault 2

2. Power Weapons, Not Power Fists
The unit cost should be dropped by 2pts per model and this should be accommodated by dropping their power fists and giving them power weapons. This will allow them to not always go last in combat and actually strike at initiative

Drop the cost by 5pts and give them the option to take Power Fists for 5pts, bringing them back to their original cost if they wish.

3. More Heavy Weapons
It makes them more of a credible shooting threat. Give a 5 man unit the ability to take 2 special weapons instead of just one and they should be able to take a larger range of heavy weapons.

If you want to give them SIA then this is unnecessary. Maybe on Terminator Command Squad (which is another idea in it's own right).


4. Combi-Weapons
This makes them more versatile. Meltas make them tank-killers, Plasmas increase their effectiveness against heavy infantry and light vehicles, Flamers help them to clear out hordes and will make it a nightmare for people to charge them and Gravs help them against high toughness, high save infantry.

5. Drop Pods As Dedicated Transports
Think of the options you have with terminators: you either footslog them and take forever to get into combat, teleport them and have a serious chance of suffering a mishap or you have to invest in a teleport homer and place units where you want your terminators do deep strike, or you can pay 250pts for a metal box. Drop pods would mean they would have a cheaper and more reliable way of getting into play.

Mishaps can be mitigated with Locator Beacons and your "250 point metal box" provides a significant amount of firepower and a big distraction. Drop Pods are unnecessary.

ouch, Valkeries rip the op a new one.

I really think that the current cost of terminators, they all should have option to carry a heavy gun/cml.

I also think they should not be using storm bolters. I think they should carry a multi laser and plug into their nuclear reactor.

4+ Inv native, two heavy weapons per five guys, start at 30ppm with power swords (+5 for power fists, +10 for chainfists). Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Terminators shouldn't get access to Drop Pods, that's what teleport homers are for.

Meanwhile, I'm going to playtest T4(5) Terminators and storm bolters being Salvo 2/4 (with combi-bolters at Rapid Fire 2, Twin-Linked). They have "liquid" Toughness 5, meaning they still suffer Instant Death on Strength 8 and higher.

'Liquid' Toughness doesn't exist anymore.

Before I get into OP's suggestions... I'd just like to ask him this:

Did you read the Terminator threadnaught that was up a couple weeks ago? Because most of your suggestions were brought up and discussed in substantial depth in that thread.

 natpri771 wrote:
1. Special Issue Ammunition
This makes sense, because they are veterans. So, why don't they get special issue ammunition? It would make them much better at dealing with more varied types of enemies. They Should have Kraken (+6", -1AP), Hellfire (-3S, Poisoned (2+)), Dragonfire (Ignores Cover), Vengeance (-6", -2AP, Gets Hot) and Metalstorm (-1S, +1AP, Blast) rounds available to use in Assault 2 versions.

No. Terminators may be veterans, but they don't have much need for SIA. Also, Metal Storm ammo only exists as part of a Deathwatch squad from an old WD issue... unfortunately.

 natpri771 wrote:
2. Power Weapons, Not Power Fists
The unit cost should be dropped by 2pts per model and this should be accommodated by dropping their power fists and giving them power weapons. This will allow them to not always go last in combat and actually strike at initiative

This is a good idea, but would actually make them cost between 31-34 ppm, as Chaos Termies, who are bolt weapon+power weapon, cost 31 ppm.

 natpri771 wrote:
3. More Heavy Weapons
It makes them more of a credible shooting threat. Give a 5 man unit the ability to take 2 special weapons instead of just one and they should be able to take a larger range of heavy weapons.

I agree with a larger range of heavies, though I think that 2 per 5 may make them overshadow Devastators... who have enough problems already. Still, there's potential.

 natpri771 wrote:
4. Combi-Weapons
This makes them more versatile. Meltas make them tank-killers, Plasmas increase their effectiveness against heavy infantry and light vehicles, Flamers help them to clear out hordes and will make it a nightmare for people to charge them and Gravs help them against high toughness, high save infantry.

No. Combi-weapons Termies is much more in the realm of CSM, and is a way that the CSM Termies compensate for lacking things like CMLs or ACs, along with Combat Squads and the Sternguard Vets. If you want mass combi-weapons, Sternguard are over there.

 natpri771 wrote:
5. Drop Pods As Dedicated Transports
Think of the options you have with terminators: you either footslog them and take forever to get into combat, teleport them and have a serious chance of suffering a mishap or you have to invest in a teleport homer and place units where you want your terminators do deep strike, or you can pay 250pts for a metal box. Drop pods would mean they would have a cheaper and more reliable way of getting into play.

You can already DS them in; why not make a specialty "Teleport Assault" rule that's TDA-specific instead. Also, Drop Pods can't hold Bulky infantry models, which Termies are.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Terminators shouldn't get access to Drop Pods, that's what teleport homers are for.

Meanwhile, I'm going to playtest T4(5) Terminators and storm bolters being Salvo 2/4 (with combi-bolters at Rapid Fire 2, Twin-Linked). They have "liquid" Toughness 5, meaning they still suffer Instant Death on Strength 8 and higher.

Salvo 2/4 Stormbolters are a great way to gak all over non-Relentless infantry that carry Stormbolters. Mainly that would be PAGKs, along with literally every flavor of SM character, plus Sisters characters- oh, and those crazy Sisters that carry Stormbolters as a special weapon.

Stormbolter fixes that were thrown around and eventually settled on between the Stormbolter and Termie threads settled for Assault 3 24", with Combi-Bolters, IIRC, being Assault 3 24" Twin-Linked. Loyalist Termies get better special weapon options generally (CML and AC are both quite a bit nicer than the Reaper AC, IMO), while Traitor Termies are heavily incentivized to go combi-weapon heavy; some bonus for leaving a few guys with the basic combi-bolter is nice, and 3 shots with TL is a good bonus for them.

SGTPozy wrote:
I'd say that Terminator armour gives you +1T and allows you to fire overwatch at BS2.

I'd then remove the +1T from bikes and then Terminators would be fine.

I'd disagree with the +1T from TDA. Part of the reason CM "Smashfucker" is so great is because he's T5 from a bike. TDA giving T5 and 2+ armor from the same piece of wargear seems a tad much, IMO.

I'd also disagree with BS2 snapfire from TDA; I'd rather attach that to Stormbolters and Combi-Bolters in general, as it's almost identical (ACs/Reaper ACs/CMLs will have to snapfire as normal, while HFs are Templates and therefore cannot snapfire and instead overwatch with Wall of Death), and also provides a nice buff to giving a storm-/combi-bolter to a SM/CSM/SoB character.

While what ended up being the "finalized" buff proposal for the Stormbolter would have been Assault 3+full BS overwatch... I find that a bit much for units which are armed entirely with Stormbolters, like Terminators. A lot of the infantry that can rip Termies apart in combat either have poor saves, poor toughness, or both. Full-BS overwatch from Stormbolters would be a pretty huge "feth you" to those units (and by extension, those armies). It's one thing to have, same, a Tac Sarge with a Stormbolter overwatching at BS4. It's quite another to have 4-8 Terminators doing the same thing.

So I'd say that the following would be good profiles for the Stormbolter and Combi-Bolter

Stormbolter
24" Assault 3 S4 AP5 Cognis

Combi-Bolter
24" Assault 3 S4 AP5 Cognis, Twin-Linked

Cognis
A weapon with the Cognis trait may Snap Shoot at BS2 instead of BS1.

The Cognis trait is actually something that's become a thing thanks to the Skitarii army, and rather than making up a new name/trait for the same thing, I decided to just rip off the name from the Skitarii list. This does make Combi-Bolters somewhat "better", however Chaos Termies are generally going to swap their Combi-Bolters to either a Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma most of the time.

This would also make Stormbolters and Combi-bolters fairly passable pintle-mounts for vehicles and cheap character gun options, given that they currently cost 5 points for almost every unit/model that can buy a Stormbolter. Unfortunately it would require some adjustment to the Stormbolter relics, mainly Dorn's Arrow, the DA Stormbolter (can't remember the name offhand), and the GK Fury of Deimos. Mostly the easy fix is to just give them an extra shot, as for the most part that's the main advantage the SB relics carry- more bullets per turn than a regular SB.

The Primarch's Wrath relic is actually in a fair spot; while Salvo 3/5 with 24" range is pretty bad for PA dudes to walk around with, there's the option for TDA or Armor Indomitus, both of which make the wearer Relentless if you really want to move-and-shoot at full effect.

33 ppm with power weapon
+3? Ppm power fists
2 heavies per 5

Might be a bit off, but I think that'd be close.

I decided it's rather pointless to discuss on Dakka since there will never be a consensus on balance (for a variety of reasons).

It's better to bring this up with the people you play with.

Most of the OP's points basically seem to be jealousy of things other types of marines have... it's kind of reads like a tantrum when it is laid out like that.. terminators don't need to be "always better AND always as well as everything else marines get" equally everything other marines get justifiably makes them different.

Having said all that 5 termies have less real use (often) than 10 geared up marines.. and that has to stop..

I think terminators need to be three things
1) more than twice as survivable as marines
2) able to deal equal damage in shooting, as would 10 infantry marines
3) able to melee as 5 men as good as 5 assault marines

You can fix this by three minor adjustments
1) 5+ fnp
2) re introduce old rogue trader "sustained fire" rule on storm bolters*
3) make the power fists AP2 str8

None of these breaks terminators ethos and none of them makes them unequal

*this was a rule that any hits generate extra hits i.e. squad roll 6 hits then you re roll them and get 4 hits then re roll THEM until you get 2 hits etc etc until they all miss. That then is the number of shots that you then "hit" and in my example you'd have 12 shots to wound against

AnomanderRake wrote:
'Liquid' Toughness doesn't exist anymore.

Doesn't mean it can't be done.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Salvo 2/4 Stormbolters are a great way to gak all over non-Relentless infantry that carry Stormbolters. Mainly that would be PAGKs, along with literally every flavor of SM character, plus Sisters characters- oh, and those crazy Sisters that carry Stormbolters as a special weapon.

Good point. I only really do houserules for my very limited group, so I don't need to think about GKs or Sisters (until Sisters get new models, which would make me play them). I wanted to keep the dynamic between the storm bolter and combi-bolter. Salvo is a really weird rule.

ConanMan wrote:
Most of the OP's points basically seem to be jealousy of things other types of marines have... it's kind of reads like a tantrum when it is laid out like that.. terminators don't need to be "always better AND always as well as everything else marines get" equally everything other marines get justifiably makes them different.

Having said all that 5 termies have less real use (often) than 10 geared up marines.. and that has to stop..

I think terminators need to be three things
1) more than twice as survivable as marines
2) able to deal equal damage in shooting, as would 10 infantry marines
3) able to melee as 5 men as good as 5 assault marines

You can fix this by three minor adjustments
1) 5+ fnp
2) re introduce old rogue trader "sustained fire" rule on storm bolters*
3) make the power fists AP2 str8

None of these breaks terminators ethos and none of them makes them unequal

*this was a rule that any hits generate extra hits i.e. squad roll 6 hits then you re roll them and get 4 hits then re roll THEM until you get 2 hits etc etc until they all miss. That then is the number of shots that you then "hit" and in my example you'd have 12 shots to wound against

More S4 shooting is crap. I still would never use shooting terminators.

Martel732 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
... jealousy of things other types of marines have... it's kind of reads like a tantrum when it is laid out like that..

More S4 shooting is crap. I still would never use shooting terminators.

Prove my point for me :/ thank you

Are their power fists not S8 Ap2?

ConanMan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
... jealousy of things other types of marines have... it's kind of reads like a tantrum when it is laid out like that..

More S4 shooting is crap. I still would never use shooting terminators.

Prove my point for me :/ thank you

I proved nothing. If you think this is a tantrum, you try using terminators. They are almost unusable.

Terminators should be allowed to roll their invulnerable save after their failed armor save. Like in fantasy.

Storm bolters would be fine as assault 3

2 special weapons per 5 man squad.

I feel this is all that would need to be done.

The spot lights on the terminator armor should be upgraded to free laserguns like the space chimp lascannons ring thingy or a multi laser that draws its power from the nuclear reactor of the tda.

1) Let them take there invuls like a ward save
2) Let them take there invuls like a ward save
3) Let them take there invuls like a ward save
4) Let them take there invuls like a ward save
5) Let them take there invuls like a ward save

Bumps up there survivability which has always been there downside for the price.

This issue gets brought up ad nauseum, and you'll never get a consensus... but, what's wrong with just giving them T5? Because bikes are still better?

what if they made bikes for terminators?

Terminators suffer from points and the ability to survive.

The massive amount of AP2 and the rate of fire from most armies makes having terminators not as effective as it should be.
1T+ would improve small arms fire and prevent them from dying to massive volume of dice as easily but I feel that this can also be done by improving them to 2W would have the same effect while allowing them to still be insta-killed by S8 and above.

If that was changed then it would make them get into combat better (since you can't assault on the turn you deep strike) and I, personally, would be fine with that change. I don't think it's hard to defeat (you can still fail a lot of saves and lose the squad and they can still be killed by AP2). So that's one option.

The other option is make is so that they have lower points and more options to customize. This should allow you to tool up terminators whichever way you want and if it get's expensive then it's on the player and not the game mechanic. What would qualify as enough options should depend on the chapter and play testing. The same can also be said about determining which point value is acceptable (they still are 2+ veteran space marines after all) so I don't think they should be 100 points base.

Drop pods don't make sense. Salvo weapons seem cool and I'd be OK with that but it doesn't seem to answer/solve either of the two main problems. The same with Special issue weapons. Doing all the things I listed also would make them too damn powerful.

On the note of terminators, I also feel like Chaos should get a helping boost. The unit is grossly under powered for what it should be able to do.

I
.

The main flaw of Salvo weapons is twofold:

1) Mechanically, Salvo status is irrelevant to Terminators; they're Relentless, so they're always considered to be stationary when determining what weapons may be fired at full-BS/RoF/range.
2) Salvo is an awesome "feth you" to any and all non-Relentless models that can take Stormbolters, which is more than you'd think in fact.

It's also why Assault 3 is a simpler solution- sure, it may not look as fancy as "Salvo 2/4", and it may not get quite as many shots as Salvo 2/4 would on a Relentless model. But it sure doesn't make Stormbolters completely worthless as a character upgrade in all the various Loyalist flavors of SM as well as Sisters forces. Oh, and it doesn't make it worthless as a special weapon for Sisters.

But other than that, I would say that Terminators should be a bit cheaper, and both Loyalist and Traitor need some help.

gummyofallbears wrote:drop pods can't hold terminators, their bulky. But I think that the special issue ammo and the drop pod choices are not really that lore freindly or good. The drop pods plain don't work, and the ammo doesn't make sense, because terminators are a late stone wall threat or insertion force, sternguard are specialists with weapons.

Whiskey144 wrote:
...
Also, Drop Pods can't hold Bulky infantry models, which Termies are.

I know this is slightly off topic, but where are you getting this idea from?
Terminators are perfectly capable of riding in a Drop Pod, unless the 7th edition Marines changed this, which would mean Cents couldn't ride along in them either.

Now, that aside, I kind of like Desubot's suggestion of let them take an invulnerable save. However, I feel like 2+/3++ hammernators would be a bit much...
I'll go with the assumption this is supposed to be on Terminators, not TDA.

The rules don't explicitly prevent it. But TDA doesn't really fit in those seats. Perhaps a seatless pod usually used for a Dreadnaught, but fluffwise, still feels like a stretch.

Bharring wrote:
The rules don't explicitly prevent it. But TDA doesn't really fit in those seats. Perhaps a seatless pod usually used for a Dreadnaught, but fluffwise, still feels like a stretch.

I'm not sure how big a drop pod is supposed to be compared to a Space Marine (the scale is all off), but I imagine fluff-wise it would need the seats out. I'm not arguing that.
It's just they mentioned Termies being "Bulky" (I take this to mean the rule) and drop pods being unable to hold Bulky models.