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At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.

If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.

Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!

I love how someone legitimately suggested something clearly ridiculously broken as a counter to this.

I think when you have to resort to broken to beat broken (and no other options exist) you're pretty much in trouble.

 Davylove21 wrote:
At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.

If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.

Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!

Okay, so two manticores and 38 autocannons. Not sure how you get all those autocannons, but sure. So you last to turn... 2? How many infantry is that? Let's say the manticore get lucky, roll 3's and get 5 per template. That's 30 wounds. 10 dead Jetbikes. 30 Jetbikes + 800 points of army left. 38 Autocannons is what... 76 Shots, 38 hit. 31.66 wound. 10 Dead.

Okay, so I have 20 Jetbikes and 800 points of army left. The Jetbikes kill your manticores easily. The other 800 points of Eldar does nothing, you kill 10 more jetbikes. Still have 10 plus 800 points. 40 Shots, 30 Hits, 25 Dead Guard. Your AC start to suffer. Next turn, you kill the last 10 jetbikes. Good thing that other 800 points of Eldar wasn't doing anything the whole time.

So yes, if you have a full 38 Autocannons and 2 Manticores against just 40 jetbikes, you will win. I'm pretty sure most 800-1000 point matchup imbalances work out like that though.

List tailoring is never a real counter.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.

How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?

Actually I could see it when discussing something like the Warhost or Decurion for campaign play.

Players write a complete list for, say, 10k points at the outset of the campaign. Limit the number of duplicate options that you can take in the overall list(say something like 3 duplications of any non-Core choice, no duplicate Unique characters) and make players pick and choose what they want to field for each mission.

If a unit is fully destroyed or a character lost, they're gone for the duration of the campaign.

Pretre, let's do a little thinking about how we can counter this instead of abandoning all hope

Yes, they have a 12" move with a 36" range, but that does not guarantee full line of site. People who are actually good at this game know how to position their models, and if I were to do so in a way that forces you to move in order to get full line of site then I've done my job and now you are out of your preferred position, making you more susceptible to charges or high AP shooting of my choice. Terrain is a thing, and if I can use it effectively then all the shooting in the world won't help you unless you come to me.

As for the actual shooting, one unit can only ever kill one other unit every turn, assuming that their roll goes well or at least as expected. you mentioned six units, well six fully upgraded units will cost 1,620 points (this is assuming you're just taking a CAD to maximize your bikes), which leaves you no room for anything other than an HQ and maybe one other character or small unit or something. So if you want to spend that much to have a chance, not a guarantee, of destroying six units with no other type of attack or shooting otherwise, go for it, but a good general will force you to work for that. That army will also be pretty inefficient against MSU mech lists if they're only packing scatter lasers.

And the fact is, you don't have to kill the entire unit, just enough to make them fall back, which is 3 when you're at full strength. And if you're just hanging in the backfield in order to maximize that 36" range then you have a good chance of falling off the board with a 3D6 fall back move. Even if you don't fall off the board, you have to snap fire the next turn, which will cut very badly into your shooting efficiency. Of course it's not a guarantee that they will fall back, but it's a strategy. And please, let's not pretend that they're survivable to the point of immortality, which a lot of people are.

My point through all this though, is that you're not just making a lot of assumptions about the Eldar player and his dice, you're making a lot of assumptions about the opponent and his competence.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it does the game and the player base a disservice when there the first posts immediately after a new rule is previewed are whiny "I'm going to quite playing because this rule is so OP." Before anyone anywhere has even rolled a dice to see how valid that comment is. Even if you guys all think I'm an idiot (and yes, I'm aware of exactly the types of comments I'm opening myself up to with the beginning of this sentence), at least I can feel good if it starts a discussion on ways to counter a unit and stops all the unnecessary crying that is currently going on.

Anyone else remember how Admantium Lance was supposed to be the only tournament list to ever win again? How super heavies would ruin the game utterly? That Thunderwolf cavalry would be the new ultimate death star? How summoning daemons would mean no other unit would ever win again? How homonculus armies were going to be the new DE standard and no one would play with just the base codex? When is it going to be enough that people will stop knee jerking and actually try to think about how to play against and counter some of these things FIRST before losing their minds?

So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS

 Davylove21 wrote:
At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.

If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.

Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!

I multiplied by 2/3 rather than 1/3 when coming to failed saves before so auto cannons cause 0.28 wounds each on average not 0.57.
That means 36 autocannons cause 10 wounds. Manticores won't last a turn and don't ignore cover are ap4 and can be countered anyway by spread. Even IG cannot handle losing 89men a turn to just over 1000pts of the opponents force. And crushing it will be almost inpossible with theor range and maneuverability.

 pretre wrote:
So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS

Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.

I have a counter:

Unbound
Typhon

Typhon

Typhon

Knight Errant

Sicaran

Sicaran

Sicaran with schism of Mars

1850pts

Eldar opponent will outscore you so only works in matches to the death (which people rarely intentionally play). Also will depend on the sicarans getting LOS blocking cover for their side armour. Oh and no wraithguard or Fragons or D weapons or Avatars or Swooping Hawks with haywire or lots of lances in the opponents army. If all those conditions are met it's a definite counter!

Oh - obviously unbound needs to be allowed. And the unlock character for 3 sicarans accepted as not needed.

It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.

It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.

The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.

I've accepted the OP nature of the new crons (I'm a cron player too), I've accepted Knight armies as part of the game, I've accepted invisibility, Grav cent stars and Flyrants all as part pf the game. Units that can be countered and beaten. Hell - I even used how effective a list was against serp spam as a measure of its strength.
But this is so completely unbelievably broken that I honestly can't think of a serious way that we will be able to beat it, let alone put up a half arsed fight.

The 6 units people have been mentioning have been 2 of 10 and 4 of 5 not 6 of 10. Hence the 160 not 240 shots. And 160st6 36" range shots on platforms with easy ability to get side armour is a VERY effective counter to vehicle MSU.

Despite not lasting long to the firepower, couldn't Drop Pod lists do marginally well against this? Yes, they'd die as much as anything else, but they'd also plop down right next to units of Jetbikes and erase them from the map as they did so. Meltas and Plasmas would ignore armor, while regular bolters or Flamers would weight of fire them. And Sternguard could do even better with their AP3 ammo forcing Jinks and what not.

Here's my counter build:

Orks.

Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK
HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.

Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?

confoo22 wrote:
Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.

I've been talking about it for a lot longer than 20 minutes. If you read through the thread, you'd see that. You'd also see that I have been the one preaching that we need to wait for the codex. So pardon me if I don't meet your respect threshhold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jambles wrote:
It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.

It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.

The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.

Agreed. I think yourself amongst them. How many quit posts have you seen here? how many people have you, instead, seen discussing the new rules that we know about and looking forward to find out what the codex brings? Ooooh, that's right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Here's my counter build:

Orks.

Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK
HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.

Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?

Seems like the guns would go down pretty quick to massed fire. :(

 Kanluwen wrote:

Actually I could see it when discussing something like the Warhost or Decurion for campaign play.

Players write a complete list for, say, 10k points at the outset of the campaign. Limit the number of duplicate options that you can take in the overall list(say something like 3 duplications of any non-Core choice, no duplicate Unique characters) and make players pick and choose what they want to field for each mission.

If a unit is fully destroyed or a character lost, they're gone for the duration of the campaign.

Which is a great, fluffy, and fun idea, but not clearly or explicitly designed for that purpose, which was my point. There's nothing inherently narrative focused about 40k over every single wargame in existence, and revolves entirely around players coming with excellent ideas like yours.

Which is true of any wargame. Though other wargames have the added benefit of campaign systems, recommendations, or scenarios built in.

Requizen wrote:
Despite not lasting long to the firepower, couldn't Drop Pod lists do marginally well against this? Yes, they'd die as much as anything else, but they'd also plop down right next to units of Jetbikes and erase them from the map as they did so. Meltas and Plasmas would ignore armor, while regular bolters or Flamers would weight of fire them. And Sternguard could do even better with their AP3 ammo forcing Jinks and what not.

They would take a turn jinking then just move away 30-36" and be out of your range for the rest of the battle. Melta and plasma is ok but not higely efficient against 27pt models with a 4+ jink.

confoo22 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS

Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.

Or they can do math faster than you.

the_scotsman wrote:
Here's my counter build:

Orks.

Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK
HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.

Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?

The guns wouldn't be killing that many models a turn in comparison to the battering they would recieve. Also with the maneuverability of the jetbikes they could effectively just engage one battery at once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS

Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.

Or they can do math faster than you.

Haha brilliant.

 pretre wrote:
I've been talking about it for a lot longer than 20 minutes. If you read through the thread, you'd see that. You'd also see that I have been the one preaching that we need to wait for the codex. So pardon me if I don't meet your respect threshhold.

If you were so serious about it then maybe you would've address the tactics I put out there and suggested some of your own instead of putting up some list and daring me to counter it as if no matter which kind of list I put out there you weren't going to repeat the number of shots they get and the range of the weapon. You're not being a tactician by repeating the same stats and then moaning that nothing can counter them, you're being a defeatist. And no matter what you believe, you've countered a lot of people trying to actually come up with tactics or being objective with some combination of "Movement + Weapon Rage + Armor Save will trump all other units."

And btw, saying that people should wait for the codex while going on and on about how unbeatable that list is is cognizant dissonance at its worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS

Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.

Or they can do math faster than you.

Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing.

"Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."

The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.

confoo22 wrote:
If you were so serious about it then maybe you would've address the tactics I put out there and suggested some of your own instead of putting up some list and daring me to counter it as if no matter which kind of list I put out there you weren't going to repeat the number of shots they get and the range of the weapon. You're not being a tactician by repeating the same stats and then moaning that nothing can counter them, you're being a defeatist. And no matter what you believe, you've countered a lot of people trying to actually come up with tactics or being objective with some combination of "Movement + Weapon Rage + Armor Save will trump all other units."

And btw, saying that people should wait for the codex while going on and on about how unbeatable that list is is cognizant dissonance at its worst.

Except, as I've said, we've covered this ground in the thread.

Yes, the 160 shots don't all engage one target. Yes, jetbikes die to long range fire. Yes, you can pick off 3 and get a failed morale save. Yes, the Eldar player can be dumb and get charged or shot if he does stupid stuff. Yes, they take up a lot of board space. But... They still outrange most anti-infantry and mulch pretty much anything that isn't AV13.

So, go back and read the thread and then give me a counter to the list that hasn't already been covered and isn't 'Oh well, I'd just play better than the eldar dude.'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, they have a 12" move with a 36" range, but that does not guarantee full line of site. People who are actually good at this game know how to position their models, and if I were to do so in a way that forces you to move in order to get full line of site then I've done my job and now you are out of your preferred position, making you more susceptible to charges or high AP shooting of my choice. Terrain is a thing, and if I can use it effectively then all the shooting in the world won't help you unless you come to me.

Except you move your models to put me out of position. Good for you. Your models now take a ridiculous amount of Str 6 fire. They are dead. Where's the charge coming from? A land raider?

Martel732 wrote:
"Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."

The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.

Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.

It's not all math, but the math can tell us things about units that are independent of the general or even the table. I would argue that the Eldar general with these jetbikes has a hard time giving up the advantage.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not all math, but the math can tell us things about units that are independent of the general or even the table. I would argue that the Eldar general with these jetbikes has a hard time giving up the advantage.

I dunno, they could just turbo boost forward to within an inch of their opponent.

 pretre wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.

It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.

The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.

Agreed. I think yourself amongst them. How many quit posts have you seen here? how many people have you, instead, seen discussing the new rules that we know about and looking forward to find out what the codex brings? Ooooh, that's right.

I wasn't claiming the entire thread was doom and gloom. But I think you'd agree there's more than the usual amount of hyper negative 40k-is-fethed posts here, and especially in the related news thread. I'm not sure what your counterpoint was - that I can't see the forest for the trees or something along those lines? Do you contest that those kinds of posts aren't constructive in any sense? Or that I'm in the wrong for calling them out? You seem to be after the same thing as I am - discussion without the inevitable doom and gloom or trite defeatism. But perhaps I'm asking for too much.

confoo22 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."

The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.

Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.

Not taking the maths into account for 40k is like trying to play poker without thinking about the odds. The best poker players don't go all in on a high card because they use the maths to influence their decisions. They may not win a hand that had good odds but they know they did the right thing calling it. Much the same in 40k, you use your mathmatical knowledge to influence you decisions if you are a good general.

And the maths here is screaming broken beyond all belief.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I have a counter:

Unbound
Typhon

Typhon

Typhon

Knight Errant

Sicaran

Sicaran

Sicaran with schism of Mars

1850pts

Eldar opponent will outscore you so only works in matches to the death (which people rarely intentionally play). Also will depend on the sicarans getting LOS blocking cover for their side armour. Oh and no wraithguard or Fragons or D weapons or Avatars or Swooping Hawks with haywire or lots of lances in the opponents army. If all those conditions are met it's a definite counter!

Oh - obviously unbound needs to be allowed. And the unlock character for 3 sicarans accepted as not needed.

drop the Errant for an Aecheron and watch the Eldar player cry and spend all his shooting ignoring the rest of your army trying to bring it down because it would wipe out all of the bikes by itself....

Hypothetical: eldar really do start completely dominating (even more than now.). First place at every event is an eldar army. The books that follow don't introduce anything that would threaten their reign.
Event turnout wanes as non-eldar players slowly realize the truth of the awful situation and stop going just to be fodder for their eldar overlords.

What do you think your local tourney's response would be? What about big tourneys and the ITC?

Would they actually attempt to go in scalpel-like and "fix" things? Is banning the whole eldar codex the only recourse? Maybe go to highlander format for all events?

 agnosto wrote:
drop the Errant for an Aecheron and watch the Eldar player cry and spend all his shooting ignoring the rest of your army trying to bring it down because it would wipe out all of the bikes by itself....

As long as the only thing he brought was jetbikes, sure.