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Sunhero wrote:
I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.
I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

Also, tools like drop pods, deep strike, infiltrate. The problem with 270 points on a unit that isn't durable is that one template, and you can blow 10% of your army. Force them to jink, that very expensive squad is worth crap all the next round. Even if all 10 survive (highly unlikely), it's less than 7 hits they're likely to score with all 40 scatter lasers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters
where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.
Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.
So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?
I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.
I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

The 40 jetbikes will be perfectly stacked in a line for my Plasma Obliterator, of course.

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

War Walkers aren't troops with objective secured either. People can look at rules and have a reasonably good grasp of how balanced they are without having to play games with them you know.

-War walkers can be caught in combat
-War walkers have no jink and their 5++ is less than what jink would be
-War walkers take up a valuable heavy slot and come in units of 3 max
-War walkers do not have OS
-War walkers do not have the movement of jetbikes
-Warwalkers do not satisfy a compulsory slot

Reasonable counters? Have you seen the responses to the counters though or are you just going to ignore those?
I came up with a list with 3 earthshakers, 10 wyverns a plasma oblitorator and 9 laser destoryers (as well as plenty of mutantsband spawn) a while back but i still had to admit it would probably lose.

Now how about you stop using insulting language, think rationally and do the maths. Using provocative wording does not make your point more valid.

Ffyllotek wrote:
What's the limit in the Eldar CAD / Decurion equivelent of how many Jetbikes can be taken, how many squads, and how many in each squad?

In the Warhost, are are allowed 1-3 guardian hosts.

You pick from 3 guardian different hosts, and one of them is called the Windrider Host (it's the only one with windriders), and you take 1 farseer, 1 warlock conclave, 3 units of windriders (3-10 in each), and 1 viper squadron

If you want certain other units like Storm Guardians, War Walkers, or Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, you must take one of the other Guardian Hosts (though it can be in addition to the windrider host).

I personally do not think spending 810 points in three 10-bike units is a wise way to spend points. At the very best, you can only take out 3 squads with your 3 squads in 1 turn that way, which isn't an exciting way to spend 44% of your army's points (at 1850).


@Poly Ranger -- I will bet the 40k farm that the warhost buffs will make them far more attractive than CAD. In 2 of the guardian hosts, you must take 1 war walker squad (neat way to make you buy war walkers, huh)

Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in even a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, but I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

 ImAGeek wrote:


You can just take them in a CAD...

You don't have to take a Decurion either TheNewBlood's point is valid: we should see what the codex says about warhosts, and everything else before getting all excited and cry that the sky has fallen

Afterwards, THEN we can complain that Warhosts have the Special Rule, "Victory of the Ancients : Roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-6, declare victory and keep your opponent's models."

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

Almost none of which are as effective as they would seem or to which the Eldar have *very* capable hardcounters themselves that they will have no trouble fitting in alongside jetbikes.

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.

You won't need to really, and they can Jink if they need cover. With 40, you can lose a whole grip and still have an absurd amount of firepower.

Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Yes, they'll fold in CC quite easily. However, between whatever firepower they throw at that CC unit in the first place, 40 S6 overwatch shots, and the best mobility in the game, CC is not going to be the greatest threat to them.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

AV10 open topped isn't exactly stellar in terms of resiliency. They have nowhere near the mobility and can't redeploy to the other side of the board in a single turn or JSJ move. They also can't be taken in anything near the same numbers. Out of a single CAD, you're going to get nine, equivalent to 18 Jetbikes. The Walkers also compete with units like Wraithknights for the same FoC slots. The Jetbikes can be taken as mandatory troops.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly.

 Talys wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


You can just take them in a CAD...

You don't have to take a Decurion either TheNewBlood's point is valid: we should see what the codex says about warhosts, and everything else before getting all excited and cry that the sky has fallen

What's your point about the Decurion? Because the thing is, the Jetbikes here are already ridiculous without any formation bonuses.

While I agree we should wait, unless they get phase out it isn't going to make the bikes bad in a cad.

 Talys wrote:


Afterwards, THEN we can complain that Warhosts have the Special Rule, "Victory of the Ancients : Roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-6, declare victory and keep your opponent's models."

I like this rule!

What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly.

Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game by themselves but the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game but by themselves the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

 ImAGeek wrote:


But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

Which brings us full circle back to the point of we don't know what has changed in regards to not only points costs but special rules, abilities and even placement in the FOC. We do not have enough information to say that the Eldar are going to be OP and ruin the game.

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

And you can just ally in cheap rapier laser destroyers if fragons turn out to be 60pts each.

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Hey, that's what I was saying earlier, lol.

Eldar may not be OP and ruin the game. Jetbikes are and will though.

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

Which brings us full circle back to the point of we don't know what has changed in regards to not only points costs but special rules, abilities and even placement in the FOC. We do not have enough information to say that the Eldar are going to be OP and ruin the game.

Those are actually two different things. Something can be OP, without ruining the game -- which is what I'm hoping eldar jetbikes will be.

By the way, most annoying autocorrect: Eldar -> Elder.

So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

lets face it guy's, we haven't even seen the codex yet and it's looking like eldar have gotten so much loving from gw we may get a second eye of terror.

What was that quote in white dwarf? something about 'can you save the galaxy?'

Poly Ranger wrote:
So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

Well take into account that if it turbo boosts it cant shoot and if it jinks it snap shots so those abilities right there effect the output of the unit greatly which seems to be what has people worried the most.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

Well take into account that if it turbo boosts it cant shoot and if it jinks it snap shots so those abilities right there effect the output of the unit greatly which seems to be what has people worried the most.

This is like the old serpent defense.

It will only jink when it NEEDS to, having the option is a bonus! Same with turbo boost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It really doesn't matter what the eldar codex is like because allies exist. We DO know that effective anti tank is in other dexes. That's all you need. Oh and a cheap enough eldar HQ. Why? Because bikes are troops so there is absolutely no tax in taking them for any army. What army don't they make better?

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Jetbikes would still have JSJ in the assault phase as they gain it from the core rulebook don't they?