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I saw the video, and I see how it's written in the codex. I mistook it for you had to organize like below.

Interestingly, wouldn't bike armies be very fragile fighting each other. With that many str 6 shots. they would table all the other bikes turn 1. The army would boil down to who goes first in a mirror match.

Yeah possibly. Bike armies would be a hard counter to bike armies to some extent. In that situation I'd imagine first turn would be quite huge. Perhaps not an auto win if you get it though.

There's too many other factors. I personally think that if someone was to spam jetbikes, they wouldn't actually have that effective a force.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK, I'll give you that mostly, but the book isn't without its bad units.

Banshee's I won't even start on.
Fire prisms aren't that great as they take a heavy slot.
Falcons are worse than the above mentioned.
Vypers don't get used. They're like war walkers but weaker.
Hemlocks I never see.
There's a few others in there too, but you get my point.

All I'm saying is, other books should be more like the eldar book, and not the other way round. If eldar have so much competition for slots because units are all comparatively good, then that's a good thing. And should lend itself to more varied armies. It's certainly more interesting from a gaming perspective then knowing which units will be selected from the army you're facing simply because they're the only units in the codex that are any good.

I agree. However, despite the fact that other codices should in theory house the range of competitive choices that the Eldar dex does, they (in practice) do not. Hence: Eldar hate.

Also, I know ranged D sounds scary, but as a single shot it doesn't sound so bad. I mean, cover and invul saves are a thing right. Unless they roll the magic 6, it may not even kill a rhino with smoke. Assaulting sounds difficult for me as a guard player, but I have had wraiths tie up my IK for like 5 turns before. If you ain't rolling 6's it's really rough.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Also, I know ranged D sounds scary, but as a single shot it doesn't sound so bad. I mean, cover and invul saves are a thing right. Unless they roll the magic 6, it may not even kill a rhino with smoke. Assaulting sounds difficult for me as a guard player, but I have had wraiths tie up my IK for like 5 turns before. If you ain't rolling 6's it's really rough.

I know. D weapons aren't as powerful as they used to be. And yet everyone is scared of them. Realistically ranged strength D isn't that mush worse than S10, AP2 with distort.

True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

 Sarigar wrote:
True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

Which to me makes the game much more interesting.

I wonder what they will do with illic. Vindicare 2.0? He shoots a distort sniper right. Str D sniper

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I wonder what they will do with illic. Vindicare 2.0? He shoots a distort sniper right. Str D sniper

Haha! Think we might receive some serious hate then...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

Which to me makes the game much more interesting.

Just like 5th edition, which I felt was one of their best editions to date, and I have played them all over the past 26 years.

The thing with ranged S: D is that they make "tough" expensive vehicles that allready struggled to find a place in lists - like naughts and landraiders - even worse.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Vaeleria wrote:
Boosting units don't shoot, do they? At least here they don't. So what if they move 12" and then another 36"? that means they're not shooting. And there's enough stuff out there that'll force them to either constantly move or get caught. Maybe we'll see more meele-bikers in space marine-lists, instead of silly grav-spam

Heck they don't even need to turbo boost. They can just jump 2d6 in the assault phase instead and can still shoot if they do. That plus 12" out paces most units' 12"+d6 run.

Or they just counter assault you with a wraithknight that now weilds D weapons

This. Its just frigging ridiculous. Now if there is a pendulum swing where the ghetto armies like sisters, DA, and orks will take their turns on the top asGW intentionally shifts the meta for the bottom line (more books sold, more minis sold).... im ok with that... grudgingly.

But WTF eldar had their turn....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@koooaei: astute as always....

Frankly I'm just a little put out by the majority of Eldar players on here... their attitude just rubs me the wrong way. Hell the necrons even stated their codex was unnecessarily buffed.

The whining is never ending. Even before we see the codex!!

This thread is the second or third threat on this forum. In the other two threads Eldar players have stated time and time again that we are not happy that a new codex is dropping so soon. Many commented on hoping for a balanced book, mainly looking for aspect warriors like banshee's, scorpions, hawks, rangers, to be utilized more.

As stated before, there are ways around everything. If a unit proves too OP, most don't spam them unless it is a competitive tournament. In fact, from the people change their list to make it fun for both sides. If the area you are playing in only plays one specific list that wins 90% of the time then perhaps you're playing in a really competitive area that will come up with the next great way to counter. Yes, not every army can have a counter, but may be able to find a different way around it.

What I'm finding is that most players are appearing to be like me. Not a good enough general at coming up with a alternative strategy to counter something OP, so I'll will wait for someone to post online how I could counter a specific build. BTW, thanks to all those who comes up with wacky ideas that ends up becoming main stream! Cheers!

If they make aspect warriors viable again, I'd be excited to field a rainbow force again! Please let me take banshees again!! I have 10 banshees and scorpions that have been collecting dust... I need to clean the cob webs off my Dark Reapers too... :(

 koooaei wrote:
The thing with ranged S: D is that they make "tough" expensive vehicles that allready struggled to find a place in lists - like naughts and landraiders - even worse.

It can create an issue, but Dreadnoughts have had that problem way before Destroyer wpns. Cover and invul saves still apply unless you roll a 6 on the destroyer table. This actually could be an issue if the power 'Doom' functions the same way. But, this is why I am leaning toward MSU style play. I also doubt Eldar will be only army with D shooting in a codex. We still have a couple more codexes rumored to come out later this year.

In no way that makes expensive vehicles and fortifications more appealing.

Think about it for a second. Why don't we see many land-raiders? They're supposed to be the toughest regular vehicle with their 14-14-14, 4 HP. But the widespread access to cheap and reliable anti-vehicle weapons like melta, grav, haywire, etc. make you scratch your head on why should you get a ~250 pt vehicle that's likely getting one-shotted the moment it meets anything of the above.

S: D is simply worse than that. It's not an accident that ranged S: D got banned from most tournaments - major and not.

We're supposed to strive for ballance so that any person can pick up whatever unit he likes and, probably with some effort, find a place for it in a list so that in the end it's gona be at least oki. The fact that you auto-loose vs eldar if you like heavy vehicles, or footslogging mellee hordes, or walkers or...most things that are not considered top-tier broken like flyrant spam or grav cents, is what makes people not happy.

What is the reasoning for scatterlasers over shuriken cannons? Obviously bladestorm isn't relevent vs vehicles, but is 40 shots better than 30 with 1/6 of hits at ap2 better agaisnt guys with saves?

Also, is 30 (3 x10 or 6 x 10) thought to be the best number of bikes with the current info we have?

30 bikes is the best number if you're not looking to make friends. More than 30 is going to make enemies. And maximum number will, I think, be counter productive.

I plan to go back to the way I played them (jetbikes) at the beginning of 6th: 2 units of 3. I always took a Shuriken Cannon, reasoning that, if I was going to use them for last turn objective grabbing, they need to have a better chance of pushing competing units off objectives. Now, I will take Scatter Lasers. That way, if I hold them in reserve, I won't be missing their firepower too much. Additionally, if I get the Infiltrate Warlord Trait, I will likely use it to Outflank the jetbikes, opening up the possibility of side/rear armor shots when they do come in.

Setting up the unit this way keeps them small (so they can hide) and keeps them cheap, leaving the rest of my points to build a strong list.

If it is better to take 3 units (due to detachment/formation benefits), then I'll still take the minimum.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I know. D weapons aren't as powerful as they used to be. And yet everyone is scared of them. Realistically ranged strength D isn't that mush worse than S10, AP2 with distort.

A single S10 AP2 shot will take one wound off an eternal warrior model or one hull point off a vehicle (unless you roll a 6 on the damage chart to explode it). A D-weapon takes 1-3 wounds off an eternal warrior character, and 1-3 hull points off a vehicle on a 2+ (unless you roll a 6 on the damage chart to explode it). If you roll a 6, it does 7 wounds/hull points minimum.
So D-Weapons are 1-3 times worse than S10, AP2 with distort, and 7-12 times worse if you roll a 6.

Not really. You've not factored in that a 6 to wound with distort means the model is removed from play.

I thought distort was just instant death? But even if it is "remove from play", then D weapons are still significantly better due to the 1-3 wounds/hullpoints regardless of toughness/armor value on a 2-5, and significantly better on a 6 because they ignore all saves and have a much greater effect on superheavies (2-4 wounds/hull points vs 7-12).

Sure, you can still save against both (except for the D-weapon 6), and against single wound models it really doesn't make much of a difference (except for necrons). But against multi-wound models and heavy tanks/fortifications, D-weapons are much better.

I grant you that. But we will have to pay for the privilege.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I spoke to my local GW store manager today. The white dwarf hits tomorrow and all pre orders will be released next Saturday.

Whether people like it or not they're coming.

 koooaei wrote:
In no way that makes expensive vehicles and fortifications more appealing.

Think about it for a second. Why don't we see many land-raiders? They're supposed to be the toughest regular vehicle with their 14-14-14, 4 HP. But the widespread access to cheap and reliable anti-vehicle weapons like melta, grav, haywire, etc. make you scratch your head on why should you get a ~250 pt vehicle that's likely getting one-shotted the moment it meets anything of the above.

S: D is simply worse than that. It's not an accident that ranged S: D got banned from most tournaments - major and not.

We're supposed to strive for ballance so that any person can pick up whatever unit he likes and, probably with some effort, find a place for it in a list so that in the end it's gona be at least oki. The fact that you auto-loose vs eldar if you like heavy vehicles, or footslogging mellee hordes, or walkers or...most things that are not considered top-tier broken like flyrant spam or grav cents, is what makes people not happy.

Not sure if you were replying to my comment. I am not advocating taking expensive units; quite the opposite. This game has never been completely balanced to where you can take whatever you want and get an even matchup against any other army. This has never existed and folks will simply be saddened if they somehow think 7th magically created that situation.

These reactions are pretty much the typical rage quit rants that have been circulating since the beginning of the game. It is as if folks completely will not acknowledge the direction is going with 40K and just remain angry. Superheàvies, destroyer weapons, crazy ally combinations, gargantuan creatures, and fortifications are all apart of the game. This stuff is not going away. And what makes the situation bad is there everyone thinks that their way is the only way to have a proper game. If folks don't want to play in a particular fashion, then don't. This is a hobby and folks should enjoy that time. This is a thread to discuss how the new codex may change Eldar tactics. I have about 20,000 points of painted Eldar and am looking at this thread for that reason. I will figure out how to play with and against Eldar lists in various capacities. I'll work up tourney concepts as well as more laid back armies and play lists in appropriate environments. I have 8 painted Wave Serpents, but I don't bring an army like that unless I was playing like minded individuals. But, I am not going to apologize for spending hundreds of hobby hours and thousands of dollars on a collection that folks deem unfair. If some folks don't know how to have a discussion with another person to help ensure a mutually fun game, that is a them problem, not mine. If they enter a tourney and get hammered because they won't adjust their army to that tourney style, that is also a them problem. If they expect 40K to suddenly be 100% fair and balanced, again that is a them problem. I started playing in 1989 and it has never been completely balanced. It's just how it is with this game.

On topic: As it stands with what little info is available, I really don't see a whole lot changing in my army lists. I will give some smallish bike units a try, but I seriously doubt any unit will be above 5 strong. I've had way too many experiences losing a couple bikes and failing morale. They fallback 3d6 and go off the table. Go too far forward and the bikes get assaulted. Big units of Fleshhounds wont be affected by overwatch and big bike units just get shredded. Too much in this game can reach out and erase Jetbikes. Jinking is available, but I would hate to think I have a huge bike unit that can only hit on 6. Guide helps, but it's not an automatic cast and some armies can have enough dice to shut down my psychic phase. I think there are a ton more factors to consider on the table than just how many shots the unit produces and my play style is more condusive to having lots of smallish units hitting my opponent's army from different directions and not allowing him to figure out what is the real threat(s). Basically, make my opponent make bad decisions.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

Yes it is, but they can choose to take a CAD instead if they so wish. The CAD and allied detachments from the BRB are avaliable to every force.

But Harlequins do not have an HQ choice, so they cannot take a CAD or Allied detachment of Harlequins.

Did some math regarding the Guardian Battlehost. For around 955 points (barring any changes to vehicle equipment) we get the following in the core:

Farseer
-Singing Spear

3 Warlocks
-1x Singing Spear

10 Guardian Defenders (X3)
-Starcannon

2 Vypers (Squadron)
-Bright Lance
-Shuriken Cannon

2 Vaul's Wrath (Battery)
-Shadow Weaver

3 War Walkers (Squadron)
-Scatter Laser
-Bright Lance

Total: 955 points

Even at 1500 points, this still leaves us plenty of room to fit in the necessary Auxiliary formations. Interested to see people's thought on this setup.

Since Scatter Laser is losing Laser Lock then I don't think it's worthwhile to give War Walkers a Scatter Laser and Bright Lance. Go one or the other.

Personally I'm going to try a setup like this:

Farseer
3 Warlocks
10 Guardian Defenders (x3)
- Bright Lance
3 Vypers
- Scatter Laser
- Shurikenn Cannon
3 Vaul's Wrath
- D Cannons
3 War Walkers
- Scatter Laser x2

Has their been any confirmation on the whole craftworld thing? I have a Wraith army(with only one WK, the other HS are eldar dreadnoughts with a Wraithseer in HQ, I have been fielding long before these new D weapon change rumors started and kind of enjoyed not fielding a top tier army and fielding an army of models I liked regardless of effectiveness. Has anyone seen any detachments or cores based off of the craftworlds?

Further, is there any rumor of making the rangers and pathfinders a bit more useful. I have 25 of the guys plus the new D-Weapon Illic(I somehow think that is going to change) that I would like to get more use out of.

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

Don't pull a "Tailor Swift"? Sorry but we aren't all 12 and that makes no sense.

What exactly did you all expect? I stated previously that the whiners wouldn't be happy with any changes. Eldar had no Formations or Detachments for FREE SPECIAL RULES so no matter what else happened they were going to get more powerful.

Everybody's complaining as if every Eldar player is going home to grab their stash and blow 400 bucks on new models that they'll have painted and ready next week!

My group is yawning. Nobody is getting worked up. This weekend we're gonna do 2 or 3 battles, have a few beers and when we talk about the changes they'll be suggesting new paint schemes and weapon load outs and how I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHANGES.

If you can't be that cool with your group than you need to find a new hobby.

 purplkrush wrote:

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

Don't pull a "Tailor Swift"? Sorry but we aren't all 12 and that makes no sense.

What exactly did you all expect? I stated previously that the whiners wouldn't be happy with any changes. Eldar had no Formations or Detachments for FREE SPECIAL RULES so no matter what else happened they were going to get more powerful.

Everybody's complaining as if every Eldar player is going home to grab their stash and blow 400 bucks on new models that they'll have painted and ready next week!

My group is yawning. Nobody is getting worked up. This weekend we're gonna do 2 or 3 battles, have a few beers and when we talk about the changes they'll be suggesting new paint schemes and weapon load outs and how I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHANGES.

If you can't be that cool with your group than you need to find a new hobby.

I like this. I'm on board with this.

Everything a new book drops, especially a top tier new book, everyone who doesn't collect that army throws a right tantrum. I told one of my closest friends and most regular opponent on the table top about the changes. His response... 'can't wait for that challenge'.

1000 points for that core isn't bad at all. But I do think the most common core you'll see is the Windrider host. I know that's the direction I'm going. Always wanted jetbikes, always hated the models. And I'm not even convinced I'll upgrade every bike. Surely the front 1 or 2 will be better off without upgrades as they'll fall down first.