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I've been reading a lot of the fluff and seeing a lot of the comments regarding the ambiguous alliance of the Dark Angels with people thinking that they aren't loyal. I don't understand why people believe that? The Lion was always loyal the Emperor and the only thing that the Dark Angels are concerned about is erasing the mistakes of the past through any means possible.
They feel (rightly so, perhaps) that if the information about half the legion turning to Chaos would cause them to be destroyed and branded traitors.

I think of them as loyal to the imperium to a degree, but loyalty to the Chapter, their duty, and the Lion, all fall much higher then the imperium to them

As such, the IoM, and more over the inquisition, don;t exactly like being NOT at the top of the list, and as such, will keep their eyes on them rather closely

Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

Source?


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DA are absolutely loyal. In an age where any sign of heresy or Warp gets you sentenced to the execution chamber, they ofcourse have to keep their secrets wrapped up tight. They are still as fiercely loyal as any other legion, but have to go the extra lengths to tie up loose ends, thus making that as much of a priority as serving the Emperor.

DA are loyal to a fault. In fact, it may be their downfall.

They are so loyal, they would rather abandon a world to a waaaagh to stop one of the last fallen from causing trouble or revealing that they ever had anyone in their legion to turn.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

It was when they were after one of the Fallen. A BT cruiser took him for questioning. DA requested the prisoner. BT said no way, brah. DA said "k" and destroyed the BT cruiser. Inquisition asked DA "What happened to the BT cruiser in the area?" DA was like "What BT cruiser in the area?"

Still don't think they are traitors for that considering BA kill own allies (Flesh Tearers) and SW fought inquisition and everyone's like "Totally Loyal"

 Inkubas wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

It was when they were after one of the Fallen. A BT cruiser took him for questioning. DA requested the prisoner. BT said no way, brah. DA said "k" and destroyed the BT cruiser. Inquisition asked DA "What happened to the BT cruiser in the area?" DA was like "What BT cruiser in the area?"

Still don't think they are traitors for that considering BA kill own allies (Flesh Tearers) and SW fought inquisition and everyone's like "Totally Loyal"

It's perfectly within reason. Those Templars were obviously fostering a heretic, and would have been corrupted by his evil ways. Better to kill them all so as to prevent the chance that they turned to chaos.

They're loyal.

They're just not as loyal as others because they're too concerned with their own agenda.

Something about chasing down enough laundry detergent to keep their tactical bathrobes clean, iirc.

For anyone interested in what we're talking about:The Black Templars Incident (998.M41)

 Inkubas wrote:
For anyone interested in what we're talking about:The Black Templars Incident (998.M41)

In context, that makes sense. Even when Lion El killed one of the Chaplains on board his ship, he did it only because it was truly necessary (Edict of Nikaea)

Yes, I just think they are occasionally stupid about their priorities as in withdrawing from battle to pursue their personal vendetta that "no one else" knows about.

 Inkubas wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

It was when they were after one of the Fallen. A BT cruiser took him for questioning. DA requested the prisoner. BT said no way, brah. DA said "k" and destroyed the BT cruiser. Inquisition asked DA "What happened to the BT cruiser in the area?" DA was like "What BT cruiser in the area?"
I admit, I might be remembering it wrong, haven't read that in a while, I just remember them blowing up the BT ship and was like "Wait, why are you doing that you twits?" But again, it's been a while

Still don't think they are traitors for that considering BA kill own allies (Flesh Tearers) and SW fought inquisition and everyone's like "Totally Loyal"

That's what's kind of bugged me about the Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves

 jreilly89 wrote:


Source?


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DA are absolutely loyal. In an age where any sign of heresy or Warp gets you sentenced to the execution chamber, they ofcourse have to keep their secrets wrapped up tight. They are still as fiercely loyal as any other legion, but have to go the extra lengths to tie up loose ends, thus making that as much of a priority as serving the Emperor.

I know that's probably a typo, but I laughed all the same.

I think they're traitors disguising their treason.

In context, that makes sense. Even when Lion El killed one of the Chaplains on board his ship, he did it only because it was truly necessary (Edict of Nikaea)

No he did not! The chaplain dared to argue with him - pointing out (quite correctly) that he'd sworn an oath precisely not to do what he was currently ordering his legion to do, and the lion punched him in the face so hard it killed him. There was no 'necessity' whatsoever - the Lion essentially snapped because someone dared to argue with him. This is one of the Lion's problems (much like Russ, interestingly enough, but to a greater or lesser extent all the primarchs) - he firmly believes other people's rules don't apply to him, and doesn't react well when someone tries to tell him that they do.



This is why he can collude to hide the existance of the chaos corruption on caliban from the imperium, ignore his own sworn oath not to use the librarius, ignore his own sworn oath not to break out the Dreadwing's forbidden weaponry, use something which is either xenotech or daemon-tech to manouvre his fleet, and essentially ignore the fact that one of the most dangerous individuals in the galaxy is on his ship rather than dealing with the fact. Because he knows he's loyal, so that's all fine.

The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.

Put them in a situation where the good of the Imperium (say, the defence of a planet that they're protecting) and the good of the chapter (say, the opportunity to pursue a possible member of the fallen) conflict, and there have been repeated examples where they've chosen the latter, or where they've only got involved in the former essentially as an accidental benefit of the latter.

To be honest, the big problem isn't the Fallen. They aren't the only loyalist legion to have traitors over the millenia, and nor can a secret like that be kept totally - as pointed out in Pandorax, the Fallen themselves are out there and plenty of them have no problem telling their story to other chaos renegades.

The 'Dark Secret' - the thing the Imperium would take the angels to task for - isn't the Fallen, much as the Unforgiven act like it is. It's the Hunt - abandoning their duties on several occasions, and murdering both brother astartes and inquisitors in pursuit of a private vendetta. Collateral damage inflicted by bezerkers in a blood rage, or during an open skirmish is one thing. Cold-blooded assassination is quite another.

They are loyal to the Imperium, they just consider finding and forcing all of the fallen to repent to be their greatest duty. The thing about them is that they are willing to do whatever is necessary to accomplish this goal and this, combined with the fact that "The Unforgiven" are really just a legion, makes up their true secret.

I think they know deep down they are heretics and hate it - like Kevin Spacey's neighbour in American Beauty.

They're loyal, but they're paranoid that others wont see them that way.

I feel like everyone treats it as the family secret. Everyone knows about it, but no one talks about it. All the other chapter masters, they're just waiting for Az to just open up and talk about it.

Dark Angels are too loyal. They're loyal to a fault. Their zeal drives to such a degree that they fanatically hunt down all their members who dare to contradict their loyalty and leaves a blemish on the Legion's history.

They quite simply are overdosing on loyalty.

strap a Dark angel down, pump him full of truth seruem and ask him if he's loyal and the answer will be yes. Dark Angels belive they are loyal. HOWEVER they also have a near manic fear of being seen as disloyal, due to association with the whole fallen thing. something that has lead them to belive they MUST keep it secrect. until, at least they have dealt with it.

from a greater IoM pov howeverm, their secrect is worse then what is being kept. it's the classic case of the cover up being the bigger scandle then the actual problem

I believe they are now, though they weren't at time of heresy.

I think this is a trend you see with a lot of the founding chapters. They're all loyal to mankind, but legion business takes priority and most are very closed off to outsiders.

 Rippy wrote:
I believe they are now, though they weren't at time of heresy.

Yes they were. The majority at least, and the Lion was. Obviously there were Luthers lot who fell to Chaos but the Dark Angels as a whole were loyal during the Heresy.

 Inkubas wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.

It was when they were after one of the Fallen. A BT cruiser took him for questioning. DA requested the prisoner. BT said no way, brah. DA said "k" and destroyed the BT cruiser. Inquisition asked DA "What happened to the BT cruiser in the area?" DA was like "What BT cruiser in the area?"

Still don't think they are traitors for that considering BA kill own allies (Flesh Tearers) and SW fought inquisition and everyone's like "Totally Loyal"

Hold up!
The fallen you are speaking of was Cypher. The Black Templar managed to capture and apprehend CYPHER! When the Dark Angels demanded that the Black Templar transfer the prisoner over, the templar do so, after a bit of an argument. Then after the prisoner transfer is complete, the Black Templar vessel disappeared, and oh guess what, so did Cypher.
So the Dark Angels destroyed the Black Templar vessel because they were on to the secret, and then the Dark Angels screwed up in keeping Cypher a prisoner.

Oh and then that Inquisitor who asked about the BT cruiser in the area, guess what, he disappeared too.

BT capturing Cypher?
No way in the warp they could catch him.

Where do you have the Cypher-bit from?

From the Cypher Data-Slate

998.M41 Black Templar Incident

I kinda feel like it's a bit of a loaded question. Loyal to Imperium, yes, I'd say they are. Loyal to the current ruling bodies of the Imperium? No. No probably not at all.

You can still be a good guy, and do the right things overall but know that other authorities would question your methods or even turn against you as an individual or even a group if they deemed you to dangerous to their own ways of thinking. It's a fine line to walk.

I look at it the same way I look at the TV show 'Dexter' (even though I think the entire premise of that show is flawed).
Is he a killer? Yes.
Is he only killing people just as bad or arguably worse than he himself is in terms of danger to society as a whole? Yes.
Is what he does still technically against the rules created by society even though they are benefiting from his actions? Yes.

Thing is, if people other than the current ruling body in the Imperium were making the rules and enforcing things differently, the DA might not even have this problem, or be in a position where their actions were questioned. They could be more open with their little secret, take up the good fight, and champion the cause of the Imperium more completely were the current ruling bodies more understanding and equitable towards resolving issues through less genocidal means.

But they aren't. So the DA is left having to rely on only themselves and their own strength of arms due to the causal relationship they have with the broader ruling bodies. I'm kinda okay with that though honestly. Screw those other dudes, the DA do what they think is the right thing for the DA. I don't feel like they owe anything to anyone, given they'd likely be immediately targeted for extermination if the High Lords and Inquisition had their way, even though the current DA have been fighting against their past for 10,000 years.

The DA are loyal to themselves, that is it. They are willing to help the IoM whenever it doesn't impose on thier own agenda. But if it does, they will leave thier allies to die, if not kill them themselves. And for the record, I think Lion-o was a douche.

I agree with Phyrek.

I voted "Yes" because I think the DA think of themselves as loyal.

However, as a BT I say they are dirty heretics who deserve justice to be dealt to them.


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 Thairne wrote:
BT capturing Cypher?
No way in the warp they could catch him.

That attitude is why you would not serve in the ranks of the BT. Black Templar embody faith, zeal and the ultimate knowledge that doubt and fear are weakness.
And most likely they didn't catch him in the warp, but somewhere in realspace.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
I kinda feel like it's a bit of a loaded question. Loyal to Imperium, yes, I'd say they are. Loyal to the current ruling bodies of the Imperium? No. No probably not at all.

You can still be a good guy, and do the right things overall but know that other authorities would question your methods or even turn against you as an individual or even a group if they deemed you to dangerous to their own ways of thinking. It's a fine line to walk.

I look at it the same way I look at the TV show 'Dexter' (even though I think the entire premise of that show is flawed).
Is he a killer? Yes.
Is he only killing people just as bad or arguably worse than he himself is in terms of danger to society as a whole? Yes.
Is what he does still technically against the rules created by society even though they are benefiting from his actions? Yes.

Thing is, if people other than the current ruling body in the Imperium were making the rules and enforcing things differently, the DA might not even have this problem, or be in a position where their actions were questioned. They could be more open with their little secret, take up the good fight, and champion the cause of the Imperium more completely were the current ruling bodies more understanding and equitable towards resolving issues through less genocidal means.

But they aren't. So the DA is left having to rely on only themselves and their own strength of arms due to the causal relationship they have with the broader ruling bodies. I'm kinda okay with that though honestly. Screw those other dudes, the DA do what they think is the right thing for the DA. I don't feel like they owe anything to anyone, given they'd likely be immediately targeted for extermination if the High Lords and Inquisition had their way, even though the current DA have been fighting against their past for 10,000 years.

The problem with that idea is that the current society of the Imperium wasn't in place when the initial betrayal happened. Not to mention they could at least ask any nearby chapters for help tracking down a traitor, rather than actually opening fire on the friendly chapter to hide their secret. I mostly agree with locarno24 on this one, the lengths they will go to covering up the betrayal eclipses the betrayal IMO. They aren't traitors, but they aren't loyal either.

Loyalty to Chapter and Primarch go before loyalty to the Imperium for the Dark Angels. As Orblivion says, they are not traitors, but not loyal either. Often, they willingly abandon the Imperium to pursue their own agenda, and I have no doubt that if the DA Inner Circle would turn traitor, the rest of the legion would follow as the DA have a culture of blind obedience (the average DA doesn't even know about the Fallen or why they sometimes abandon their allies). Johnson after all also was not quite known for his rock-steady obedience and loyalty...