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 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

Play using their rules but with 40Ks lore. Boom.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

really? i usually cringe when i read 40k stuff. it makes me feel embarrassed it's so bad.

40k lore is good only by quantity. In that goddamn trash heap, there will be something for everyone.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

Play using their rules but with 40Ks lore. Boom.

Alternatively, we could grow up as human beings and not seek arbitrary, subjective bans on everything we aren't 150% in favor of.

kb305 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

really? i usually cringe when i read 40k stuff. it makes me feel embarrassed it's so bad.

40K is one of those weird licenses where the basic core concepts are so very cool, but the execution of them is often quite pitiful.

Well all of the Ork lore has been accurate.

I think it actually gets better the odder it is.

Case in point space hulk sized shokk attack guns, looting planets, invading daemon worlds and violating the space time continuum.

It even gets better in the novels like Overfiend.

So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?

Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.

 TheKbob wrote:
If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?

Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...

SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss

What rules system would you recommend for 40k models? Genuine question, is there any rules system that actually covers the range of 40k models somewhat decently?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?

Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...

SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss

What rules system would you recommend for 40k models? Genuine question, is there any rules system that actually covers the range of 40k models somewhat decently?

I would like to hear this too. If there is a rule system where I can play my no-centurions no-IoM-ally-cheese BA army against my friends' tau, crons, and eldar, and actually be on even footing, I'd like to know about it.

No, there isn't.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?

Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.

That is the source of the problem. Not all armies are created equal. Normally this is manageable, but with the new Eldar codex we have the case of certain units in the book being leagues better than anything other armies can field. It's perfectly fine to restrict or ban certain army lists within a casual/friendly context, but banning an entire army within that context is going too far.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

Tell those companies to write lore that doesn't suck more than the patron-god of vacuum cleaners.

I don't think GW's lore is particularly inspired or clever anyway. Pretty stupid, if you really analyze it objectively.

I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.

I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.

I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.

I actually pretty vehemently disagree with this conceptually, but I can understand the business decision. I wonder how many they are going to drive to e-gaming over the long haul, though. I'm probably going on hiatus again once this codex becomes over 50% of my opponents. There are no scatbikes in Starcraft.

This is another great example of why I refuse to commit more than minimal money to GW. Just enough to keep one list up to date. No more.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?

Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.

You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win. By banning more powerful models, you're actively saying that your opponent cannot have their brand of fun, they must subscribe to your own SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOUR WAY. Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub).

There are other games that use the same base scale, like Infinity and the soon to be Maelstrom's Edge, but if you want to resuse overpriced tanks and monsters, that's a no go, I agree. But continuing to play a busted ass game just because you sunk $1000+ into it is the sunk cost fallacy. Remember, it's just a matter of time before the way you want to play is either laughable bad or monstrously broken. And then you're either getting steamrolled or pointed at as that "WAAC TFG TRIHARD" and that'll suck for you.

If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.

" Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes "

Not really. Having blatantly overpowered units cheapens the overall decision process in both list construction and play on the table.

Going back to Starcraft, there is the additional balancing factor of in-game infrastructure to field carriers or battlecruisers. 40K could really use something like that.

Martel732 wrote:
" Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes "

Not really. Having blatantly overpowered units cheapens the overall decision process in both list construction and play on the table.

Going back to Starcraft, there is the additional balancing factor of in-game infrastructure to field carriers or battlecruisers. 40K could really use something like that.

In an actively maintained game, I would agree. But at this point, there is no active design; no rhythm to the madness. Maybe this is the new power level GW wants? Maybe this isn't? We honestly do not know.

Starcraft is a video game and poor comparison. I'd sooner choose some of the other games with strong competitive scenes, primarily Warmachine. Items come out, Doom & Gloom, and if it's legitly broken, it gets fixed. FAST.

This Eldar nonsense is overpowered, but not every new release is. The 40k community is very much about banning this and banning that, creating navel gazing house rules, and a bunch of people that want their special snowflake of a list to be competitive versus realizing they're playing a book, an army, not the "3rd company of such 'n such". And now the game is literally bring anything you want. Even remotely complaining about balance is laughable. Because at that point, you start banning things, but then everyone is left unhappy at some point because all it takes is on GW goof up and you're out your army for months, years...?

GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.

I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.

I actually pretty vehemently disagree with this conceptually, but I can understand the business decision. I wonder how many they are going to drive to e-gaming over the long haul, though. I'm probably going on hiatus again once this codex becomes over 50% of my opponents. There are no scatbikes in Starcraft.

This is another great example of why I refuse to commit more than minimal money to GW. Just enough to keep one list up to date. No more.

We're actually in the same place as far as GW spend goes. I've been passively just not buying GW stuff. The last Codex I bought from GW was CSM over 2 years ago. I haven't been bothered with getting the new "Imperial Guard" or Eldar Codex, still using the 5E Codices for both of them. Haven't bought any new GW minis since 2012 (a single metal Crusader before GW moved it to FailCrap).

Though the noise here is really getting me to consider switching focus from IG over to Eldar, which I haven't played or worked on in ages.

Maybe we're talking past each other. I don't expect players to self-police, which is why I advocate systematic balancing. If that means bans, so be it.

 TheKbob wrote:
GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.

I agree. If you can't adapt to play at the top tiers, that's on you. Not crying "cheese" and trying to ban stuff.

Unbound with Forgeworld is how GW expects people to play, not houseruled "scrub" style.

The best bit is that most of these scrubs were the ones who used to complain so bitterly about comp, before GW rolled Apoc and Flyers into 40k

I've been thinking about whether it would be worth trying to get people back into playing 5th edition. I realize it's not perfect obviously (no 40k version ever has been), but I felt it was one of the best attempts at getting the game balanced. The biggest offenders of the edition (Grey Knights and Necrons) seem to pale in comparison to the newer Necrons and especially the upcoming Eldar.

I don't want to make light of the investment people have put into their models, but I think that the rules hold a tenuous value to the game as whole, especially since GW seems content to invalidate entire army builds every few years. The rules for older editions come cheap (or can easily be found online), and 5th still covers most everything going on now, minus flyers, superheavies, and a couple of miscellaneous new models. I feel that this is a good alternative to those who dislike the trend GW is taking with the game but still very much enjoy the game that has existed these last 30 years. I'd like to see what the rest of you think.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe we're talking past each other. I don't expect players to self-police, which is why I advocate systematic balancing. If that means bans, so be it.

I believe it's not the player's responsibility to balance the game. You're paying for it. It should be the game designers. Instead of imposing self limits, if the game is that badly broken, players should quit. Stop supporting it is the real answer, not patch it up. Because once the latter mentality sets in, it's definitely a slippery slope issue of people arguing what is and is not balanced. That leads to players having their collections invalidated. It's not an Eldar players fault GW just gave them the Codex on high, but now they're double shunned for it? That's stupid.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.

I agree. If you can't adapt to play at the top tiers, that's on you. Not crying "cheese" and trying to ban stuff.

Unbound with Forgeworld is how GW expects people to play, not houseruled "scrub" style.

The best bit is that most of these scrubs were the ones who used to complain so bitterly about comp, before GW rolled Apoc and Flyers into 40k

If that's what they expect, I'm out. I'm not laying out that kind of $$.

 TheKbob wrote:

You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win.

And for 25+ years, I thought the whole goal was to have fun recreating apocalyptic scifi battles. Dang, I knew I was missing out on something.

 TheKbob wrote:

If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.

I've never in 2+ decades had a problem playing the game with actual people, who also wanted to play the game. There are tons of games out there, but not a single one that allows you to recreate large-scale, scifi themed battles with collections of models. I mean, literally, not one.

If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.

 TheKbob wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?

Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.

You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win. By banning more powerful models, you're actively saying that your opponent cannot have their brand of fun, they must subscribe to your own SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOUR WAY. Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub).

There are other games that use the same base scale, like Infinity and the soon to be Maelstrom's Edge, but if you want to resuse overpriced tanks and monsters, that's a no go, I agree. But continuing to play a busted ass game just because you sunk $1000+ into it is the sunk cost fallacy. Remember, it's just a matter of time before the way you want to play is either laughable bad or monstrously broken. And then you're either getting steamrolled or pointed at as that "WAAC TFG TRIHARD" and that'll suck for you.

If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.

It's more like banning x things is an attempt to bring back a SANE baseline. Again, if I had 1 point reaver titans, you would obviously flip stances on the issue, as that would be clearly out of line, and an easy fix. Really all I heard from your post is "you don't want to put up your army just to be a punching bag for me, you must be a tryhardwaacscrub!"

I don't think most pro magic players are scrubs just because they aren't going to play against a vintage deck with their latest standard deck. I mean, they might do it for fun, but that takes all of like 3 minutes for them to get stomped and move on. If it was a 3 hour game, you can bet they'd decline.

The banned/restricted list in mtg works pretty well, and you don't hear a lot of complaints about it. (Maybe because the company behind the game takes an active stance on making the game balanced and working properly.)

Sadly a lot of people have fanatical faith in word-of-god. As in, if TO's all decided that the WK needed to cost 410, +45 for each heavy wraith cannon, people would throw all kinds of fits and arguments. If GW put it in a book like that, then there's only the normal few people who might try to argue the cost.

Personally I think we should empower people like FLG who have taken an active interest in the competitive game, and let them tweak the rules so that we get a better game overall. I trust a team of tournament players far more than GW's "let's throw a chapter master on a sleigh!" Design team.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.

Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.

A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

And let all my time and money spent on my armies go down the drain? Not a viable solution.

Except it's not sci-fi. It's the retro-future where tanks have worse accuracy than 1950s US tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.

Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.

A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.

And let all my time and money spent on my armies go down the drain? Not a viable solution.

I'd rather not sink more time and money after the bad.

 Talys wrote:
If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.

The capital costs of setting up such a range are unfathomable without a GW revenue base. Sure, Hasbro could do it, but why? They're already making money hand over fist.