Ban Eldar from All Competitive Play. Operation Pitchfork.

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**Rippy**

Martel732 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.

I always enjoyed BA vs. Nurgle CSM. Had about 50/50 win rate against my mate.

**Martel732**

Blacksails wrote:
Everyone wants their army to be worthwhile, but if the escalation continues, the game will be quite literally so broken as to be nearly unplayable outside of a handful of close friends and heavy comp/restriction/gentlemen's agreements.

When money is factored in, I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons. I think its pretty daft now a troops choice can take D-weapons, but I'm holding out a little longer for a few reasons.

When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.

I always enjoyed BA vs. Nurgle CSM. Had about 50/50 win rate against my mate.

Nurgle should win more often than that because of defensive grenades. But sounds like a good time.

**Talys**

Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

**Martel732**

Talys wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

Again, why not? They just did it and many are saying it's not a big deal. They have "counters" for the scat bikes. I'm sure those same people will find "counters" for guardsmen with D-weapons. If we're going crazy, go full crazy, not selective crazy.

**Wulfmar**

Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

**Talys**

Martel732 wrote:

When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.

I don't know about your scene, but in ours, both in private groups and FLGS, hardly anyone plays Eldar -- or, it seems, there are a disproportionately small number of Eldar players, seeing as it's been a top-tier army for a long, long time. Some friends are like me -- we have Eldar armies, but haven't been dusted them off quite a while. Personally, I always blamed it on models -- particularly so many infantry models being outdated/finecast, and the repetitiveness of their hover tanks.

**Martel732**

One person will get the bikes and then everyone else will need them to counter them. In reality, other scat bikes are the only counter for scat bikes.

**Blacksails**

Martel732 wrote:
When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.

Well, sure, obviously player dependent, but I get what you're saying. That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you?

Talys wrote:
In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

Which was partly what I jokingly referring to, though I never player 40k back in those days. I'm a relative newcomer, mid way through 5th.

I understand that the game needs to change in some capacity as the years go on, and that I won't always agree with the changes. But nothing good comes from a system where new codices (updated sequentially rather than simultaneously) are completely superior in nearly every way.

There's a lot I dislike about current 40k. That much I'm sure many of you know by now, for better or for worse. But if I'm still here, clearly GW has done something right with 40k as a whole, and its sad to see it get washed away by easily avoided mistakes like this book.

**ZebioLizard2**

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Great, so she could even take down Kharn with that sort of power.

**Talys**

Thanks for sharing, Wulfmar! Pretty cool. 1D3 Warlord traits.... lol! Jain Zar sounds fun in a challenge

Some of them probably look better than they are, especially if you consider the availability of D weapons in Wraithguard.

Blacksails wrote:
I understand that the game needs to change in some capacity as the years go on, and that I won't always agree with the changes. But nothing good comes from a system where new codices (updated sequentially rather than simultaneously) are completely superior in nearly every way.

There's a lot I dislike about current 40k. That much I'm sure many of you know by now, for better or for worse. But if I'm still here, clearly GW has done something right with 40k as a whole, and its sad to see it get washed away by easily avoided mistakes like this book.

Well said! I'm not so sure that escalation in all codices is something we really have to worry about. If you look at most of the codices, they were scaled back, or at least, kept at parity (look at Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, for example). The problem, and puzzling thing to me, seems to be that GW doesn't mind buffing SOME factions... the ones that were pretty strong to start with!

It is healthier for the game for GW to have Eldar overbuffed, and leave the other factions alone (in terms of relative strength), because this is easier for the community to come to a consensus on in terms of tournament rules adjustments, which a lot of other players will adopt as house rules.

**Martel732**

"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

**Blacksails**

Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

**Martel732**

Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

It's already broken. Might as well go full crazy.

**ZebioLizard2**

Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

It certainly breaks the game for those who have that army.

**Blacksails**

Martel732 wrote:

It's already broken. Might as well go full crazy.

If that's your line of thinking, then we'll just have to leave this and agree to disagree. Again, I dislike a lot about current 40k, but I don't think I'd want to see it get any more ridiculous just to make the players of faction X strong enough to contend with the Eldar until the next book stomps them.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It certainly breaks the game for those who have that army.

Which would in turn break the game for even more players playing all the other factions that haven't even been brought up to near that power level. Its also a temporary solution, lasting as little as a month.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Talys wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.
.

The D in D cannon just stood for Distortion and had its own rules. Had nothing to do with being Strength D.

**Talys**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The D in D cannon just stood for Distortion and had its own rules. Had nothing to do with being Strength D.

The Distortion Cannon was way more powerful than Distort or Destroyer weapons of today. It had a 2" radius and if you were in it, you got a saving throw to get out of the way -- the best saving throw was for units with good mobility (I think 4+); big clunky units saved on a 6. Miss the save, your model was removed -- there were no second chances.

Give these to tactical squads, and you'd effectively remove everything big and expensive from the game.

By the way, the old Distortion cannon has the same principle as the new Distort weapons (warp bubble sucking stuff in); since Distort weapons are now Destroyer rules, they kinda sorta ARE the same. In an irrelevant way.

**Martel732**

" I don't think I'd want to see it get any more ridiculous just to make the players of faction X strong enough to contend with the Eldar until the next book stomps them. "

I'll take that over what I have now. It's called desperation.

**TheKbob**

Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

Thoughts:

Asurmen... could be good if the Warlord traits are bonkers. D3 though, hmmm.

Jain Zar... if you can deliver her, all those super kill Chapter Masters and what not? HAH. Locked up forever!

Karandas... does that work if he's with a unit? If so, that could get REAL GROSS if you attach to say, I dunno, Fire Dragons or Wraithguard?

Fuegan... Not Hot.

Baharroth... oh, look, the Anti-Tau guy. Initiative tests for a 7" bubble basically. Gross.

Maugan Ra... S'alright.

**Rippy**

TheKbob wrote:
Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

Jain Zar... if you can deliver her, all those super kill Chapter Masters and what not? HAH. Locked up forever!

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

**Ashiraya**

raiden wrote:
To anyone wanting a 40k game that is balanced and awesome to watch, pick up WH40K II retribution. Then download the FREE elite mod. You can play as any race save necrons and I think tau in the multiplayer. You get almost all of the units save the Knight's/WK stuff. (Sadly no bikes yet) . its not perfect but hey. Its an option.

No DEldar either, or SoB.

You could also help betatest Forbidden Lore. It may be slow in work progress, but it is not abandoned. [/shameless selfadvertisement]

**TheKbob**

Rippy wrote:

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

Then Sarge dies, the Phoenix Lords are typically Fearless (yes?) and then you issue another challenge. You just lock up his deathstar unit forever and soak it on Jain Zar. Does she have Hit and Run? Could be even more hilarious.

And if you don't accept, unless it changed in 7E, you say the Chapter Master doesn't fight. You still lock up his nasty boss unit.

**Rippy**

TheKbob wrote:
Rippy wrote:

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

Then Sarge dies, the Phoenix Lords are typically Fearless (yes?) and then you issue another challenge. You just lock up his deathstar unit forever and soak it on Jain Zar. Does she have Hit and Run? Could be even more hilarious.

Oh wow, I thought challenges could only be issued on first round of combat? Did I miss that completely?

**JohnHwangDD**

Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

**Veteran Sergeant**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

**cvtuttle**

Gamgee wrote:
The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.

Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?

If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.

As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.

Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.

I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.

Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.

Operation Members:
Gamgee
Orock
Torga_DW
Rippy

This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Seriously - just go play another game that you will enjoy.

**SilverDevilfish**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...
I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

Correct, it's equipped by the whole squad and they carry it into battle over there heads.

**Blacksails**

This pleases the machine spirit.

**Marsyas**

Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

As far as I can tell, Asurmen, Baharroth, and Fuegan are completely unchanged.

**Talys**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...
I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

On the other hand, Hulk could grab the Shadowsword by the barrel, and swing it hard enough to do more damage than a D-weapon

See, the Emperor had it all wrong. He didn't need the Adeptus Astartes... he needed the Avengers!

HULK SMASH! Puny Eldar!