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Awesome yakface, thanks for the response, nice to hear it straight from the horses mouth

I was just basing my assumptions off the rules preview (such as all equipment being the same in that one). Good to know that individual models do have a purpose and effect!

I disagree with the comments regarding the art.

In fact I like the art far more than I like the figs tbh.

I have no issues with the color, composition or the style. In fact while you knocked it for not being up to "today's standards" I would argue that many things prodiced today suck or are overinflated. Retro has it's own charm and I don's see the art as being an issue that should effect anyone's desire to play the game.

The art is not retro. If anything, it could use fewer computer-enhanced techniques.

And saying it could be better does not mean I don't like it. I'll be keeping my rule book just for the precious, precious artwork.

Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?

A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.

 darrkespur wrote:
That looks really good! I like the way you've kept the design faithful to the original whilst also adding your own spin. Female figures were something we really wanted to do but we couldn't manage it this time around whilst keeping everything multipart and compatible with each other. We would definitely like to explore the possibility of female sculpts in the future if the Kickstarter and launch allows us the flexibility to do so, although the reality of designing in HIPS means it wouldn't be in the near future.

I'm glad you like it. I might have a go at a Karist Trooper next.

 bosky wrote:
No discussion on the rules yet?! :( I guess I'm one of the few that values rules over models or the universe. A game can look and sound as cool as heck but if it plays like garbage what's the point?

From the Kickstarter page: http://www.maelstromsedge.com/rules.pdf

Seems like the game could have been 5-6 models a side instead of 20-30 since the squad leader is the only one who really matters (for facing, line of sight, etc.), and the grunts are basically wound counters?

I like the movement stat, the VS roll is an interesting idea but also feels like an attempt to do 40k Str vs Toughness without a chart, instead of an original thought?

Sad to see it's D6 with roll to hit, roll to wound ("penetrate")...two rolls for combat resolution always feels tiring. The whole Armor, Mass, and Fortitude seems like one stat too many?

The flagship feature seems to be the suppression tokens, which are neat and remind me (visually) of Epic 40k. Stacking STs to prevent activation seems cool, as does keeping a unit suppressed until you can get in close and finish them off.
Although does the game tend to bog down into both sides "camping"? And then a lot of weight is put on failing activation rolls, and how much effect that can have?

I'd be interested to see a game being played, is there a video or full report anywhere?

Those other models in a unit are especially important, even if you happen to equip them the same. First for aesthetics and feel, it just looks better with a few more models around. Second, rules wise, Yakface has covered most of the points. But extra models means more shots in a unit, but also means that you can affect your opponent lethally, and vice versa, without completely removing a tactical option from the game until the point where the unit is wiped out.

Individual model based skirmish games are a vastly different thing than the small sized unit rules they have here. I like what they've made quite a bit.

It's a successor to 40k in the best way, an evolution of the style of the game, without going overboard.

Suppression actually helps limit the death star effect where everything in an army always aims for one thing on the enemy list in an attempt to destroy a single unit entirely first, because that's all that matters, ignoring the rest of the enemy army unless they can't shoot the focus. Now, having units put down fire on a wide range of units could potentially setup bigger future gains, instead of a few random deaths. It also deals with the reversed problem, which was a game that had devolved into an endless series of super powered assaults.

Then, objectives help get things mixed up even further.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?

A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.

So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.

Anyway, sorry for going offtopic, just an observation. To answer your question the universe is not overly complicated and if you've played Mass Effect 3, that's where the similarities are from.

A long time ago there was a human diaspora from Earth using sublight engine technology and generation ships, which spread the human race pretty thin and generated quite a few human colonies on distant, disconnected worlds. I believe the reason for the abandonment of Earth was released but I don't remember what it was.

Fast forward a couple hundred (maybe a thousand years) and a humany colony ship discovers a "gate" of sorts that leads to a nether/warp like second dimension where travel between stars can be completed in a matter of hours, days or weeks. They realized this system of "tunnels" spread throughout the Spiral Arm of the Milky Way and that it could be traversed fairly easily given enough power. They dubbed it: The Cybel Network. Thus began a golden age for humanity. Colonies were rediscovered, new species encountered and the energy (dark matter) being produced by the cybel was canned, stored, shipped and used to power the engines, weapons and generators of a new interplanetary empire. (Cybel energy is slightly sinister as it's highly radioactive and volatile. Think Plutonium or Uranium in its radioactive isotopes. So it's heavily regulated)

Fast forward another couple hundred years and the center of Cybel network destabilizes and goes kaboom, the chain reaction sweeping through the tunnels and spreading out into realspace in the form of a titanic wave or storm, named the Maelstrom. The Maelstrom tears worlds asunder and appears to be a gravitational anomaly, moving towards centers of largest mass and accelerating the closer it gets. Now people and aliens scramble to flee the Maelstrom's edge. Save the Karist, who believe that those who are ready, when consumed by the energy of the maelstrom, are freed from this mortal coil and ascend to a higher plane. The Epirian corporation is just that. A mega corporation with interests throughout the Spiral Arm still trying to make a quick buck in the face of imminent catastrophe. The Broken is pretty much everyone else left on the Edge, aliens, pirates, renegades and anarchists. There are two other revealed factions but we don't have any information about them yet.

The reason I compare MEdge to ME3 is because of the similarity between the "relays" even though they aren't a physical thing and the explosions, being proliferated by the network connecting the stars, the "that which brough us propsperity is our downfall" kind of feeling.

Except as far as we know, there are no Reapers.

This is a discussion forum, so discuss away. It's on topic since story is part of the game.

Having good rules, good story, and good miniatures aren't impossible, just difficult.

And jumping to the "nobody's perfect" defense is just as weak of an argument as asking for perfection, which nobody was.

Usually what happens is you release, then update things over time after release, much like every other game company has done to their games. And you don't be afraid to do that updating as it is needed. For as much as people has a problem with say, GW's endless updating and retcon, that is just what you need to do.

Take a look at Infinity's earliest models, a lot of them were garbage. Now? Well, everyone seems to only remember their prettiest newest sculpts.

It also takes years of development for a game's story and sculpts to reach mature and almost every game still on the market has had that time, I'm willing to see where this one goes.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Take a look at Infinity's earliest models, a lot of them were garbage. Now? Well, everyone seems to only remember their prettiest newest sculpts.

It also takes years of development for a game's story and sculpts to reach mature and almost every game still on the market has had that time, I'm willing to see where this one goes.

I agree with everything you're saying RE: updating and making things better

But I remember nothing but praise for Infinity's sculpts, even from the early beginning and all the "garbage" ones. I remember lots of words about "questionable design decisions" which I've also heard here about the Epirian contractors, but as far as sculpting goes, no one seems to be trashing the quality of details.

The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.

In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.

In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.

We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.

That's why the Epirian drones are fairly limited in independent thought and require support from human handlers. Of course, with the Maelstrom disrupting interstellar travel and communication, it's becoming harder and harder to police the emergence of AI...

 darrkespur wrote:
We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.

That's annoying. Yes, Dune did it. Yes, 40k did it. That does not mean you need to do it too.

 darrkespur wrote:
We have an explanation for the Maelstrom, we just don't want to reveal all the mystery just yet...

Is the explanation "scientists ruined everything (again)"? Because that's really getting old.

 AlexHolker wrote:

That's annoying. Yes, Dune did it. Yes, 40k did it. That does not mean you need to do it too.

It wasn't done because other people had done it. It was done because an explanation was needed for the lack of evolution of AI.

 darrkespur wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.

In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.

We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.

That's why the Epirian drones are fairly limited in independent thought and require support from human handlers. Of course, with the Maelstrom disrupting interstellar travel and communication, it's becoming harder and harder to police the emergence of AI...

That's cool. I'm glad you've thought about the singularity in there, and it does make the drone handlers make more sense. But I think what I'm saying is - with a label of "hard sci fi" I'd expect that the conclusion would follow from the preconditions, whereas with Maelstrom's Edge it seems more like the conclusion (the type of desired setting and so on) has been set and then justified after the fact, if you see what I mean? I guess this is more or less inevitable given the nature of the game, so maybe it's solely the label of "hard" (though I'm not sure you ever said "hard" specifically) that is throwing me off.

I kinda hope you'll eventually be able to reveal an answer in-setting to whether ascension is real and stuff like that.

 AlexHolker wrote:
That's annoying. Yes, Dune did it. Yes, 40k did it. That does not mean you need to do it too.

They do need to explain it somehow. We might see the results of singularity within our lifetimes, and when it happens it will probably at the very least change human social structure a great deal. If you want to say, well, it's just like now, you probably need an explanation.

ETA: though singularity was just an example of a thing that is likely to change our societies a lot. It wasn't meant to be the one thing that would cause a change!

 insaniak wrote:
It was done because an explanation was needed for the lack of evolution of AI.

You don't need an explanation for why true AI was never developed, because true AI is not merely an evolutionary progression from traditional computing. Crunching bigger numbers faster does not automatically translate into a computer being able to determine for itself which numbers need crunching.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It was done because an explanation was needed for the lack of evolution of AI.

You don't need an explanation for why true AI was never developed, because true AI is not merely an evolutionary progression from traditional computing.

Maybe not in reality. But in most peoples' minds, I think it kind of is.

One of the tenants of hard scifi was exposing people to those realities and making them an interesting part of the setting. Becoming both thought provoking and entertaining. Not just to parrot what are now very tired tropes.

I actually didn't realized they had reused the trope of big AI war, so no more AI routine.

I can't say I'm a fan of that twist either. I wouldn't have expected that given the drones previewed and I know that GW didn't invent the trope either but it's another feather in the cap that makes Maelstrom's Edge similar to 40k (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one) and I'm not really sure how I feel on that without seeing the whole background myself.

 warboss wrote:
(the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)

I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.

 insaniak wrote:

 warboss wrote:
(the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)

I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.

It's more than a passing similarity in that example.

 insaniak wrote:

 warboss wrote:
(the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)

I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.

I don't think the similarities between Maelstrom and 40k are very broad. They are close enough that the initial Kickstarter synopsis (granted, my only exposure to the setting!) made me wonder if this was supposed to be a fan effort to "fix" 40k, rather than an original setting. A "golden age of exploration" followed by cataclysm and backsliding (to the point of leaving large parts of our past shrouded in mystery), a disastrous war with AI in our past, a present rife with more war as religous fanatics battle it out with hardcore uber-military types willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of everyone, and ominous aliens threaten us all, while a gaping wound in space spews forth unknown and unknowable terrors to traumatize a horrified galaxy, where everyone and everything faces a future of uncertain survival?

I don't think that's broadly similar to 40k, it seems very similar to 40k. Just without psykers. Really, the only thing that seemed super different was the aesthetics of the armored models, which looked pretty similar to a bunch of the minis I've seen from Infinity.

I'm not saying that it's a rip-off, just that it seems very close. I'm less interested in the rules, or the minis, and far more interested in what's supposed to make this world more interesting than any other sci-fi setting.

Are the books sourcebooks or novels? And are they available as e-books or just in print? I'd potentially be interested in checking one out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bocatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?

A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.

So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.

I don't have unreasonable standards for a perfect game, and it doesn't sound like anyone you're referring to does either; we all just have different aspects we consider important to a game we're willing to spend money on.

Furthermore, I don't think everyone is requiring greatness in each aspect. I don't think a desire for quality miniatures, functional rules, and an engaging backstory is unreasonable at all, or an 'unreachable' benchmark. Even if it is, I (and it sounds like the other two groups of people you mentioned) am willing to accept a loss in some categories in exchange for 'slightly-above-mediocrity' quality in the one we focus on.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Are the books sourcebooks or novels? And are they available as e-books or just in print? I'd potentially be interested in checking one out.

There are two novels out (Kindle format at the moment, unless you happen to be at Salute in the UK today, where the only physical copies are). One of the authors links to a free sample in his sig. Reviews from people on Dakka who have read them seem quite positive; I'm hoping for dead tree versions, myself.

Perception is an interesting thing. I don't personally see the link between 40k's Warp (an alternate dimension, populated with daemons & god-like malignant entities with distinct personalities and agendas) and the Maelstrom (which appears to be a cataclysmic explosion that is propagating through both normal space and the interstellar shortcuts of the cybel network), but it's come up a few times. I haven't been exposed to any information beyond what has been publicly posted (I haven't read the novels, or even the free sample, yet), but I have read all of publicly-posted information, apparently to a very different conclusion than others.

If part of the goal of the "mystery" behind the Maelstrom is to get people talking about it, I guess it's working.

 Jimsolo wrote:
present rife with more war as religous fanatics battle it out with hardcore uber-military types willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of everyone

Not quite, more religious fanatics, one branch of which is really keen on the hard way (the priests would rather convert everyone peacefully) fighting a corporation that is holding onto some worlds while they have resources to go, then often abandoning them and whoever is left that isn't of value to the maelstrom and that world's end. So not really at all uber-military types, give the explanations of the corporation a bit more of a read and you'll get that the majority of their soldiers are just guys who are trying to work to get their family off world, or factory line men given rifles, armour and a weeks training and pushed in there.

 Jimsolo wrote:
and ominous aliens threaten us all

According to the creators, think "star wars" for the level of alien integration in society, more than 40K EVERY ALIEN IS EVIL EVER. Sometimes the aliens will be bad, yeah, but so will the people. So it really isn't like that...

 Jimsolo wrote:
while a gaping wound in space spews forth unknown and unknowable terrors to traumatize a horrified galaxy, where everyone and everything faces a future of uncertain survival?

Well no, the wound is expanding and destroying things in its expansion. Not that the thing expands, stops, spews out horrors then continues. Honestly, your posts make it sound like you haven't tried overly to familiarise yourself with the background before hitting the keyboard. Hope this helped clear some things up

 motyak wrote:
Honestly, your posts make it sound like you haven't tried overly to familiarise yourself with the background before hitting the keyboard. Hope this helped clear some things up

Sorry amigo. My entire impression is based on the Kickstarter synopsis. (I said that in an earlier draft of my post--hadn't realized I'd deleted it.) Generally speaking, I don't seek out further experiences if I've had a less-than-favorable first impression of something. However, since I have a great deal of respect for Yakface, I started inquiring in these threads because I'm genuinely curious if the setting is more original than it appears at first glance.

Just because something is similar doesn't make it bad, by the way. (On first blush, Alphas appears to be a rip-off of Heroes, but is the vastly superior show.)

Still, I appreciate you pointing out a couple aspects of the lore that aren't mentioned in the KS summary. You've certainly given me enough reason to check out one of the novels.

 Janthkin wrote:
I don't personally see the link between 40k's Warp (an alternate dimension, populated with daemons & god-like malignant entities with distinct personalities and agendas) and the Maelstrom (which appears to be a cataclysmic explosion that is propagating through both normal space and the interstellar shortcuts of the cybel network), but it's come up a few times.

I don't see it either.

The comparison between the Cybel Network and the Webway, though...


I've read book one and am a ways through book 2. So far the fluff is OK, it's not NY Times bestseller list stuff but it's pretty solid. I'll form more of an opinion when I've finished it all the way but so far I've liked it. I presume at some point a foundation will be laid for why the Karists HQ's ultimate ability is to become a suicide bomber. I suppose he considers it ascending.

So far as the minis, I pledged in very early but will see how they develop. The Karists are OK, but the Epirians don't really do it for me for reasons that have already been discussed. However, I find it reasonable that they look better when with the rest of their force because all the blocky elements tie them together, so I'll wait to see the rest of the force. Ultimately I'm going to support the project anyway so it probably doesn't matter. Maybe I'll do headswaps, maybe I'll leave the shoulderpads off, whatever.

I'm excited about the Broken; because all sorts of weird aliens sound pretty neat. I also like that there is going to clearly be a wide scope of decor, so to speak, and am very excited about making junction boxes and so on into what looks like a set of a Firefly episode.

I think the rifles look too big for the Epirians but I have firsthand experience of why that's appropriate I got some sniper rifles a few years back from Maxmini that were accurately scaled, and they weren't usable with 40k minis; they simply all looked too weedy. A 50 cal Barrett at that scale done correctly has a barrel barely thicker than a needle. As shown they seem to be a good compromise of being distinct when ranked while not looking like 40k-everything-is-in-canned-ham-caliber weapons.

The images of the Karists next to the Space Marine and Cadian make me wonder how well a average-at-best painter would be able to do with the Karist's armor; what merely looks pretty good when blown for large shots up reveals itself to be an exceptional paintjob when shown with the other minis, with very fine detailing.


Also, kinda a stupid question that maybe got answered and I missed it; does the glow from the weapons from the Karists need to be pink/purple? Clearly not, since the away team colors are teal.

 Ouze wrote:
I don't see it either.

The comparison between the Cybel Network and the Webway, though...

That might be because the comparison is between the Maelstrom and the Warp and not the Cybel Network and the Webway (which is related and also similar).

Yes, I understand that I'm making a different comparison.

There we go, a Karist Trooper.

The ME setting is similar to the 40K setting and it is similar to the Dune setting. All three are also very similar to real life history.

We had an age of discovery and enlightenment resulting in science and reason emerging from Greece and the construction of the Library of Alexandria. Then we had fires, plaques, and other cataclysmic events that resulted in knowledge and progress being lost, then we had an age of darkness and strive during the Middle Ages where everybody fought everybody and it took an external threat in the form of them Muslims conquering Israel and parts of Europe to unite them and fight under one banner but factions remained. Then we had another age of enlightment, some may even say a renaissance of sort.

The same tropes will appear again and again because life did it first and there will never be an original story, just reimaginations of previous stories who were inspired by real life events and concerns.

What is the prior trope for the Webway / tunnel system in space? I don't know of one but I'm sure it exists.