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If going mauler you need 5 or 6 to get the desired result because of their av12. Backed up by a gorepack and other threats it could work.

I am still looking for that big unit that can act as a deathstar. So far its 16-20 hounds with lord + herald on juggs, then second cad csm with axelord on jugg + sorcerer on bike. All characters in the big hound unit. Either go for biiomancy or telepathy on the sorcerer. Big spells being endurance, invisibility. A wk would still be able to go in without much trouble hoping to stomp the characters out and taking minimum damage.

Its very hard to find that go to unit, I think demonkin players might be better off letting go of that deathstar dream and stick to msu spam. Playtesting required

 GoonBandito wrote:
The Feel No Pain Blood Tithe reward is also extremely vital for the Bloodthirster. You'll almost always want to be choosing that reward.

I never considered that, Thirster with FNP becomes considerably more resilient.

I have had the chance to play a few games recently and some stuff has come up. First, demonkin get their ass kicked by eldar all day long. Maybe not these fluff eldar lists you see around the forum. I am talking about 2 sources, 2k pts that takes advantage of some good combos.
This list is what i have faced a few times and been tabled around turn 4.
Farseer-jetbike
Wraithknight
5x5 scatbikes
Space wolves cad
Battlebrother-twc, pf, shield
2x5 gh with melta in pods
2x3 twc, all with ss, pf
........
This list has the means to take apart your cc units with twc + wk and just annihilate everything else with 100 str 6 shots per turn.
So how do we demonkin players handle this list that kills 4 units of hounds per turn in shooting and kills the rest in cc??

My idea is to go mbu instead of msu.
MBU = multible big units
We go with cad + gorepack and load up with units that can survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and still be able to hit the eldar lines and take out those scatbikes. With bigger units it can work to outflank as well in case we go second.
Here is a list i am going to try against my eldar playing friend next time.
Lord-jugg, axe of khorne, pf, sigil
Lord-jugg, lclaw, pf, sigil
2x8 cultists
2x3 spawns
Helldrake-baleflamer
2x soulgrinders - phhlegm
Gorepack
2x3 bikes, 2x melta
2x10 flesh hounds
2x9 flesh hounds

We play modified maelstrom missions in case your wondering.
What do you guys think??

Alright boys, I might be updating my strategy guide.
There are many general battle plans players follow that vary based on their and their opponent's army composition. Here is a guide for one such plan, one that I think if Daemonkin use properly against shooty armies, they have an excellent change at victory.

I call this the Hammer and Anvil strategy. Based in part on traditional ancient warfare, this strategy attempts to use the speed and power of the Daemonkin forces to reduce enemy fire and inflict maximum damage.

First understand that your army will be divided up into three parts:
1. The Anvil
2. The Hammer
3. The Cannon
Note that some units are flexible and can perform in more than one role.

The Anvil must get in combat with the most destructive parts of the enemy force as soon as possible. The survival and potency of the rest of your army depends on it. Once in, they need to be survive long enough for the support of the Hammer. The slower, but more powerful Hammer strikes the fixed enemy with crushing force, shattering their numbers and morale. When the Hammer of your force first hits is when the battle will sharply turn. The final optional part, but no less strong if well placed, is the Spear. These units can provide general support or direct assassination of a crucial enemy unit. They weaken the enemy army overall, allowing the Hammer to more easily do its job, and the Anvil to lose less soldiers.

The Anvil
Units in this category are your fast, beefy models. They don't need to pack a powerful punch (though often do), but they must to get into combat as fast as possible. They just need to last but a single turn for your hammer to come and finish off the enemy in a single powerful charge. If they can tie up multiple units and still survive, they should do so.

Units that fall under this category:
-Maulerfiends (especially with Lasher Tendrils for extra tarpitting)
-Flesh Hounds (act as a Hammer unit as well with an accompanying HQ or enough hounds)
-Bikers (not the most resilient, but can fulfill this roll if need be. Usually is a Spear unit.)
-Chaos Spawn (cheap bloodtithe points and surprisingly nasty)

Recommended: Flesh hounds. These guys are cheap and take a lot of abuse. With their huge bases they can spread out, which increases their range, prevents strategic enemy movement, and grants cover saves.

The Hammer
Units in this category are your finishers. They have lots of attacks or a few very powerful ones. They finish off your opponent, usually a single charge. These units can be highly specialized towards particular units or can be somewhat flexible in who they can charge. Speed and resilience are not these unit's strength, but power offence power is. Protect them with cover and/or transports and tie up the enemy with your Anvil as soon as possible. YOUR ANVIL IS CRUCIAL for these units to function, as they will be shot to pieces otherwise. A strong anvil is more important than a strong hammer.

Units that fall under this category:
-Chaos Space Marines (with a powerfisted champion and swapped bolters for CCWS + boltpistols, they can be suprisingly nasty)
-Khorne Berserkers (masters of charge, they can pointed at about anything and do the job).
-Possessed (similar to Berserkers, needed for a Slaughtercult)
-Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes (yes, even though they can move very quickly they should be swooped most of the time turn one against shooty armies, land turn two, and charge turn 3. These bullet magnets need a ton of protection but can be devastating if used correctly)
-Bloodletters (if deepstruck they usually have the turn 3 speed of other units. A great value option.)
-Terminators (same as Bloodletters when deepstruct. When in a landraider, they are a quick striking Hammer, but very expensive)
-Helbrutes(a very slow Hammer with Anvil like capabilities. This unit struggle if not in a formation as they lack transportation and are about as sluggish as units get)

Recommended: Chaos Space Marines, Bloodthirsters, and Bloodletters.
CSM's flexibility is actually quite hand. Provided you have tied up the opponent's important units, they can disembark with relative ease and can do some serious damage. I have had units of ten with double meltaguns + a powerfist take out a healthy knight by themselves.
Regular Bloodthirsters are handy taking out more elite units quickly that resist normal combat. D-thirsters can demolish the toughest of units, just try to keep them as healthy as possible, but don;t compromise strategy in the process.
Bloodletters are value Hammers. They can satisfy the troops requirement in a battle forged army, and can lay down some serious pain for only 80 points. But they're toast if your anvil doesn't do its work.

The Spear
The Spear: A weapon used best at ranged with a single sharp point. When directed into the weak chink of a suit of armor, it damage is crippling. Spear units provide support for the other two components of the army, either by raining shells from afar, or taking out tough enemy units with their small size. They are not essential for the army, but can be potentially powerful. Our codex does not sport many of these units, and Codex: Chaos Space Marines has a much better selection.

Units that fall under this category:
-Termincide (point and click a unit to destroy, Can be quite effective, but often late and inconsistent)
-Forgefiends(lots of S8 shots. suffers from low armor, high points, and guardsman accuracy)
-Skull Cannons (the low AP on this weapon makes it somewhat unremarkable. It's ok at removing a single hull point at a time from vehicles and walkers, and has reasonably close combat abilities. Good for a demon heavy army)
-Soul Grinders (A very sturdy unit, these guys can hit hard if they don't miss, but can be a bit slow into close combat if you need them. They have our only source of skyfire weapons, not bad in a pinch)
-Defilers (a more expensive, less sturdy grinder. I weep)
-Helbrutes (if taken for shooting, they can be decent, but are unfortunately fragile for their points and lack the firepower to be very effective during their usually short lifespan)
-Bikers (fast and reasonably tough, these guys are sometimes ignored for your scarier units, but armed with special weapons they can take out important parts to the army. Their speed grants them increased flexibility and power)
-Raptors (when used as Spears, raptors are essentially worse bikers/terminators. They lack the defense but gain a flexibility you don't really need. They are usually too expensive to be taken as a Hammer, and too fragile for an Anvil. Take them as cheaper bikes if you must.)
-Heldrake (while coming in a bit late, a Heldrake can protect your units from overwhelming fire from non-vehicle units as well as anti-air protection. Their offensive and defensive capabilities are legendary, but they can be unless in some matchups or simple arrive just a bit too late as your Anvil has done its work by tying up the enemy already)

Recommended: Bikers, Heldrakes, Soul Grinders. These boys are pretty tough and good value for their points. Make sure you have a good anvil first though.

The rest of the nnits I haven't mentioned due to their terrible value or are for primarily objective securing. This strategy is quite effective and will generate blood tithe points quickly, furthering your opponent's doom. Go forth and slaughter champions of Chaos.

doomarn wrote:

........
This list has the means to take apart your cc units with twc + wk and just annihilate everything else with 100 str 6 shots per turn.
So how do we demonkin players handle this list that kills 4 units of hounds per turn in shooting and kills the rest in cc??

My idea is to go mbu instead of msu.
MBU = multible big units
We go with cad + gorepack and load up with units that can survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and still be able to hit the eldar lines and take out those scatbikes. With bigger units it can work to outflank as well in case we go second.
Here is a list i am going to try against my eldar playing friend next time.
Lord-jugg, axe of khorne, pf, sigil
Lord-jugg, lclaw, pf, sigil
2x8 cultists
2x3 spawns
Helldrake-baleflamer
2x soulgrinders - phhlegm
Gorepack
2x3 bikes, 2x melta
2x10 flesh hounds
2x9 flesh hounds

We play modified maelstrom missions in case your wondering.
What do you guys think??

i've never played a list as hard as the one you mentioned, so maybe this is N/A, but whatever. i have played a war host with seers on foot, and it wasn't that crazy of a game.
but some thoughts.
i think this has been mentioned before, but maybe dip into daemons as your second source. psychic powers, the grimoire! take advantage of having fearless instead of instability. daemonkin can also pack in characters that can hit much harder than a C:daemons khorne herald against armor and whatnot. i guess that MBU philosophy is the one behind the C:daemon multi-star lists.

I am about to go play bugeater with the below list.
Some key points: 1. 100 models....bring on the shooting, I got more models then you. 2. Cannons are the anti Eldar, I have three and a defiler lol. No jink save for you lamedar. (Also take like ten of those jetbikes to kill one.)
Bloodhost
Slaughtercult
Bloodthrone
Eight possesed
two cc cultists min squads
two blood letter min squads
war engine soulgrinder with phlem.

CAD
lord with fun axe and stuff
two min shooty cultists
one 16 man shooty cultist to act as extra wounds for my lord.
three min squad hounds
three skull cannons.

I have a thirster and an extra blood letter squad for tithe.

How have y'all been doing versus Necrons ?

So, I played a game today with my Khorne Daemonkin against my opponent's Grey Knights. I got my butt handed to me. My list was the following:
Blood Host
Slaughtercult:
DV Lord on foot with BoEB, Plasma Pistol and Sigil
5-man Possessed with Rhino (lord went with these guys)
8-man Bloodletters with Reaper and banner
10-man CSM with 2 meltas, Power Axe, and rhino
10-man Cultists with flamer
Khorne's bloodstorm:
5-man Raptors with flamer, plasma pistol, power sword and melta bombs
5-man Raptors with 2 meltas, power sword, and melta bombs
5-man Warp Talons
Baledrake
War Engine: DV Helbrute (multi-melta, powerfist with heavy flamer)
My opponent's list was a Nemesis Strike force with a Termie Librarian, a 10-man blob of termies, 2 dreadknights, Coteaz, and a regular Inquisitor. He also had a single Imperial Knight with RF Battlecannon. There were 3 servo-skull thingys that had little effect on the game as well (they went with either Coteaz or the inquisitor). Basically, I got krumped, badly (we played Maelstrom of War). My opponent told me that lack of AP2 on my melee units really cost me. He recommended that next time I should run a CAD and take a D-thirster (since I told him I had one). He also mentioned allying in Be'lakor, but I'm not sure I'm going to do that yet. I have a tournament tomorrow, so I was glad to get in a casual game so I could figure this stuff out. What are the best sources of AP2 for infantry? Axes of Khorne perhaps? Or powerfists?

Axe of Khorne.

Powerfists

Ap2 is the akilles heal of the demonkin. Best way to solve this is allying in something that has ap2 like ghaz bullyboys, csm, daemons and even necrons. I have found that going primary daemons and using a big gorepack formation works pretty well.
Other than that you can go with gorepack 4x3 bikes with double plasma or melta, spam some soulgrinders/maulers with bloodhost.

Based on my experience the other day (see this battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652613.page), it seems that Juggernauts are all the rage for lords and heralds. I don't have any, but the good news is that my opponent's were not official GW models, but rather custom ones made principally from Star Wars Miniatures Junk Golems. I own a few of these models myself, maybe I can make my own version!

Back on topic, what kind of units/tactics would be best when facing Daemons with KhorneKin? I felt like all of my opponent's units were far more durable than mine and they hit harder too. Is there a simple solution I overlooked (other than bringing a houndstar of my own or allying in something)? I probably need to put together my Soul Grinder for a start; it would have been much better than the stupid Helbrute.

Hit harder? Oh dear. Well the big weakness of daemons is instability, and fragility of support units. You need to use the extreme speed of KDK to multiassault weak stuff with the strong stuff, and pop the whole lot with instability.

FMCs are a big issue tho. No effective tools present themselves.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Hit harder? Oh dear. Well the big weakness of daemons is instability, and fragility of support units. You need to use the extreme speed of KDK to multiassault weak stuff with the strong stuff, and pop the whole lot with instability.

FMCs are a big issue tho. No effective tools present themselves.

The main thing that was hitting me hard and causing casualties was all those psychic powers. I also couldn't do much more than spit at the two FMCs, who were the ones casting most of the deadly psychic powers, but then anti-air is a weakness of the Khorne Daemonkin codex. If my Thirster had not gotten charged, I could have had him take to the sky to try to vector strike the FMCs. I think the only effective anti-air we have is our own FMCs (flying Princes, Thirsters), Heldrakes, and Soul Grinders.

I probably should have had my Possessed squad with the Lord use its Rhino to get into my opponent's backfield and start killing Pink Horrors. That would have reduced the opponent's psychic presence and lessened the sting of all those powers. As it was I only got the CSM and Warp Talons back there and they ultimately got tied down and destroyed. Lessons learned for next time, I guess.

 sfshilo wrote:
Cannons are the anti Eldar, I have three and a defiler lol. No jink save for you lamedar. (Also take like ten of those jetbikes to kill one.)

Why would something with a 3+ armor save jink an Ap 5 gun?

I guess the anti psycher relic could be worth including,?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like psychic fmcs.. they do have weaknesses..

Limited movement when swooping.
Cannot switch to assault in one turn
Tendency to ground themselves from perils
Reliant on squishy psychic batteries
Buttloads of points.

Generally speaking, I've found I crush the opponent's ground game and their flyers aren't much of an issue. Against flying MCs, I just make sure to direct my TL bolters from the Rhinos each turn to force some grounding tests. I usually take one flying MC myself and drake, then summon more flying MCs if I'm facing a lot of flying things. Our tithe table is such a flexible resource.

What have people found to be the most effective Thirster to use in most games? If I am dropping about $100 on a model I want to build the most useful one.

I would recommend the Insensate Rage one. That strength-D weapon is pretty awesome. If other people are worried about WYSIWYG, you should go with the Unfettered Fury since that is the one you can summon.

Really solid advice, I want to try the 4 juggernaut lords and 6 maulerfiend list for sh>ts and giggles

Just for clarification, Are the formations in the Blood Oath book official? I know the book was an "exclusive release", so id just like to double check. Recently started back up with 40k and I am revamping my standing Necron and World Eaters armies. My main opponent is a cheestastic Eldar player, and I thought i had found salvation in the "Fist of Khorne" formation until I just discovered that those Drop Pods cost more than a land raider......

So, there is a new LoW in town and it also has the BftBG rule. What do you guys think about the Khorne Knight? It certainly looks like the most useful mark and 5++ via the deamon rule is very good too!

Yeah. But costly, but the save is good. It is a daemon. It can get bonus attacks from bftbg and generate points.

And.

Stacks with grimoire.

Stacks with legacy of first war of Armageddon

Can be made invisible by belakor.

This could be a winner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also fricking only way of getting dirge casters in pure KDK lists