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Actually started this thread last week, then was told it was premature, despite the whole thing leaking.

How will major tournaments adjust. They have already started filtering out Str D ranged weapons. This is like GW seeing this trend, feeling their profits threatened, and the wrote this book to give the big double deuce to tournament organizers doing this. It seems like every time organizers try and put restrictions and smart adjustments in place, GW swiftly comes out with something that throws that out of whack.

This new codex just breaks the game over its knee. I dont think any but the most hard core delusional eldar players will dispute this. The problem comes in game variety. Eldar as it stands would be in some form or another probably be in 8/10 top placing lists in any tournament that dident seriously curb their power.

Are there any peliminary trials going on? Any gameplay testing by tournaments, since GW cannot be bothered.

I have to say, this one codex has killed any and all desire I have to play in any kind of paid event, or where I would have to have expenses. I think that tournament organizers are smart enough to read the writing on the wall, and are scratching their heads about the issue as well.

One thing is for sure. if nothing is done, eldar WILL win more than their fair share, and will only be met by "of course" and "boo" chorus from the rest of the peanut gallery.

To me, the Wraithguard are the same. The Wraithknight on the other hand.......

The bikes I am still unsure on, might be easier to deal with than people think, but they might be to tough. Till I play a game against them, or actually get the codex, no clue.

The Aspect warriors are actually better now, and could probably make the table as something other than a unit tax for Wave Serpents.

The Psychers.....Never a big fan of Psychic powers, they are so random in use and now generating the power, that it is something I don't focus much on. Plus the Deamons seem to be able to throw down a lot more so it will probably be shut down against them anyway.

There are basically 3 ways to deal with it (other than just not having tournaments):

1. Ban the new codex. Kind of a bad precedent, but it's the cleanest solution. The fact that Eldar already were "top-tier" will make this easier to swallow for Eldar players, and requires no change in current army builds. But then you're telling people they can't use the most current codex for their army.
2. Selectively ban/mod units. This could lead to issues with consistency, as one tournament might think a 170 pt unit with 5 ranged d-weapons is bad while another doesn't. There is the issue that someone who buys the codex is going to be told in a pickup game "those rules are different". Also there is the mostly unnoticed (simply due to more glaring problems) that even the basic aspect warriors are now undercosted when you compare stats and special rules to other equivalents, especially when using the warhost formations.
3. Write a new codex. Aside from the obvious potential copyright issues and inability of the community to agree on things, it would take a huge amount of work and be subject to controversy. Consistency is again an issue if multiple sources try it. And at that point...if we can make a more balanced codex, then why not create more balanced core rules and simply do a re-write of EVERY codex when it comes out?

We already know Str D gets nerfed at events. What is your primary complaint? The bikes?

It's a powerful codex no doubt but banning it is just plain silly. For me, the only thing that grinds my gears with the new dex is the hilariously under-costed wraithknight. If tournaments keep the usual "No LoW except characters" ban then I think everything else should be manageable and fine.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Also there is the mostly unnoticed (simply due to more glaring problems) that even the basic aspect warriors are now undercosted when you compare stats and special rules to other equivalents, especially when using the warhost formations.

This is actually not quite true. In some cases yes, but in many cases no. Depends on the codex that you are matching it to. Several of the Aspect Warriors were over costed as compared to other units in the previous codex, and this has corrected that issue for some of them. Many of the Aspect Warrior cost more than a Marine, and get worse on everything except Initiative, and Leadership. The special rules add bonuses to correct this issue, plus match the special rules available to the unit it is matched to.


The Special rules bloat is an issue with the game, as not all rules are equal in ability, but GW seems to just treat them as equal when pricing a unit. Example: Night Fight is usable for 1 turn out of 50% of the games you may play.

Battle Focus is always useful, to add range, or get back into cover.


Battle Focus is the more powerful of the two, but both appear to apply equally to their respective model.

Guardians are actually the unit that is under costed, as compared to other troops choices. I can only guess as to why, probably because they pay through the nose for weapon upgrades, and Aspect Warriors don't have as many options.

Formations are their own thing, although they are fluffy, they are easily abused at the moment. I don't think they will be going away anytime soon, and they will get worse before they get better.

 Byte wrote:
We already know Str D gets nerfed at events. What is your primary complaint? The bikes?

D-weapons get nerfed at tournaments by simply getting banned. But if you ban ranged Str D, then you ban both variants of wraithguard, Vaul's wrath batteries, the hemlock, and the stock wraithknight. It puts TOs in a weird position, since the previously accepted solution now cuts 5 units from a codex.
And yes, the bikes are also an issue, leaving 6 obvious violators before people get into a fluff/points/balance debate about other stuff (such as fire dragons with +3 on the vehicle damage table or melee units with an average of 10" charge before fleet that you can't overwatch).

Codecies have previously been viewed as untouchable in terms of comp, while it was acceptable to limit supplements and expansions. The new Eldar codex is different because to fix it requires a paradigm shift in tournament comp.

It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

I overall don't see it as that bad. MY main problem with playing against elder in the pest were:
1)Wave Serpents - fire out put with shield (this has changed)
2)Objective secured bikes stealing things left and right - if taking the new formations (which you would have to do to get all of the aspect special rules) then bikes no longer have Objective secured
3)Wraithknights in general - well, now that they are a LoW, you are having to take the formations (which has a higher tax now of vypers, more warlocks and a 3rd bike squad). By that point, you are getting heavy into the allowable points for your army. If you go CAD, then you can only take 1 LoW per CAD, which would again increase the point taxes on your army.

Let's be honest, they took a overpowered Codex and didn't knock it down. But, its the same with Deamon summing/Fate weaver spam, or Tau bombs. They are the top 3 armies, so find ways to deal with them.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
To me, the Wraithguard are the same. The Wraithknight on the other hand.......

For some armies, it doesn't matter. For a lot of others, it's a huge, gigantic, massive difference between a bit of Str 10 Ap1 and Str D. My main army is GKs. With Str 10, meh, my Dreadknight will take a wound or two and then I'll get into combat. Now, he'll get 2D3 wounds, which will likely kill him, and there's a solid chance of them rolling a 6 in which case he's straight up dead. All the Str D (and the Jetbikes) took competitive Eldar from being a rough matchup against my GKs to me hoping that the Eldar player is both simply utterly incompetent and rolls terribly if I want to even have a shot.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

This, Orock. I have had the codex in my hands for less than 24 hours. Maybe I'll get a play test tonight. The local TO is going to let it ride unfettered for the first monthly tourney. Sounds like a good way to test things out before axing it.

Let's see how this car handles on the track before banning it from public roads, eh? " ... breaks the game over its knee." C'mon, man.

Given how "meh" the Imperial Knight's impact has had on our local tourney, LVO 2015, and all of their "Sky is Falling" D weps, I don't see how a WK, just one on the table, is going to do more damage to the game.

WraithGuard? 12" guns and the same to kill as they were before. I'm not going to poop my drawers if they're in groups of ten deployed or in Wave serpents in groups of five. They'll scrag one unit and then get tarpitted in h2h, with FWs, other elves, SM, etc.

Formations? Just allowing one at a tourney, like things already are ...

The Sky is Not Falling.


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 DarkLink wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
To me, the Wraithguard are the same. The Wraithknight on the other hand.......

For some armies, it doesn't matter. For a lot of others, it's a huge, gigantic, massive difference between a bit of Str 10 Ap1 and Str D. My main army is GKs. With Str 10, meh, my Dreadknight will take a wound or two and then I'll get into combat. Now, he'll get 2D3 wounds, which will likely kill him, and there's a solid chance of them rolling a 6 in which case he's straight up dead. All the Str D (and the Jetbikes) took competitive Eldar from being a rough matchup against my GKs to me hoping that the Eldar player is both simply utterly incompetent and rolls terribly if I want to even have a shot.

Dreadknight versus WK was a decent match up, in favor of the Dread, given his Force Wep. Now, it's the other 'way round. Still a decent match up, but the WK has the edge, in h2h. And in shooting.

If the DreadKnight gets caught within WG range, then that 'utterly incompetent' ought to be placed on the Grey Knight player's ability.

1. No non-character Low (already in effect in many tourney formats).

2. All D weapons are -1D strength

3. Limit Eldar jetbikes to 2 upgrades per 3 bikes.

Edit:
4. Nobody care if less Eldar players attend tournaments. lol

Wouldn't bother changing anything. the more you comp every release, the more work you make for yourselves. The next dex will have similar stuff and issues and the next one and the next one. banning a codex is a stupid, stupid precedent. It wont change anything from GWs POV, as they already don't support the IC but it will put people off events in the long run. (what if marines get the much rumoured plastic thunderhawk - ban marines too? )

Something will always be top dog. screamerstar, adlance, serpent spam, helldrake spam, cron air, venomspam, valk spam. The newer dexes historically have tended to have stronger options than older ones, until you get to the point that old ones are almost forgotten about then someone turns up with it and fists everyone who's like "wtf does an excorcist do?" Used to be called codex creep, and people just got on with it. now everyone's gaking the bed over it.

all you do by banning and comping one dex or unit or weapon is keep the current one/s top.

There are lots of easy ways to get the Wraithguard in close range... To shrug them off as only having 12" range is not accurate.

I wrote a long summary of my feelings on this on Capture and Control.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2015/04/the-sky-isnt-falling-please-stop-again.html

For those who don't want to click out of dakka and read blogs this small excerpt sums it up pretty well.

"You know what scares me about the online community? Not that they'll be right about something but that they'll be wrong and we will have gone so far beyond the pale that it's nearly impossible to come back from the brink they led us to in a blind rage."

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

I guess I'm just one of those mystical few people that can read statlines, weapon profiles, abilities, and point costs, tumble them together, and then make a good estimation of how they are on the table. It probably helps that I've been playing 40k for over a decade, have played strategy games for almost my entire lifetime, and specifically in 40k, I've played at least 2 games both as and against every current army, including horus heresy. (There are just some formations that I haven't tried out.)
The biggest offender to me is actually the d scythes. S4 ap2 flamers before, str D-1 flamers now. They used to knock out armored infantry or infantry in cover.
Now they knock out armor, cover, reanimation, anything relying on fnp, monstrous creatures, things relying on multiple wounds like nobs and dark eldar coven units, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, super heavies, and gargantuans. I don't think land raiders need MORE things discouraging their use. And of course the hilariously undercosted knight, the amazing artillery and flyer, and stupendously all-around best-basic-troops-in-the-game jetbikes are no slouches either. And all of that is backed up by very solid units that only look subpar because they aren't as good as those ridiculous things above.

7dar is the most obviously broken book I've seen in the game, to the point where I'm convinced GW is actively trying to give tournaments the finger.

Taking a wait and see approach is bad. When things like this hit, your tournies start losing people. And once they find something else to do with their Saturdays, it's hard to pull them back. If you want your tournament scene to NOT drop by a good 20% or more in the next few months, tell your local TO to get in front of this bull and take it by the horns. Waving the cape and letting it run by is not a good option.

As usual, this is for tournies. For funsies games in your game room or lgs, do whatever you want!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There are lots of easy ways to get the Wraithguard in close range... To shrug them off as only having 12" range is not accurate.

Besides the Strategic Warlord trait that gives 3 units infiltrate? Please share, DB. I'm likely to be the one guinea pig that brings eldar Wraith/Dwep-spam to my local rtt, so I would like to give as best as can be delivered. Seriously.

We are a bunch of guys to actually see if it's broke before applying a modification.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I wrote a long summary of my feelings on this on Capture and Control.

Too bad you had to ruin a perfectly good article with another "PEREGRINE SUCKS AND HAS NO RIGHT TO AN OPINION" rant. I mean really, you spend more time complaining about the fact that I pointed out how your painting standards are your personal preferences and not universal tournament rules than discussing legitimate balance issues. The irony here is that I haven't called for any of these extreme reactions to the new Eldar codex, so bringing in your pointless little vendetta has no purpose besides giving you a straw man to beat up on and make yourself feel better.

PS: you don't know what tournaments I have attended, will attend in the future, am considering attending, or have wanted to attend but rejected because of their decisions. Refusal to play your idiotic "my is bigger than yours" game and get into a credential war is not the same thing as having no stake in the discussion.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

... It probably helps that I've been playing 40k for over a decade,...

OWCnC and I are in the same boat as you. Long time gamers, 10+ years in 40k, long time tourney goers.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Taking a wait and see approach is bad.

Go back a year in time and review the furvor over Malefic Summoning Spam. Further back, Riptides. Trip-tides. The Tau book. And the last Eldar book. Serpent-spam was a contender and did win big GTs, but then stopped. And, well, were there the same "Sky is Falling" rants over Grav-Bikes and Drop Pods? Flying Circus?

I am not complaining about Grav-bike White Scars, though they dominated my FLGS tourneys through 2014, nor Drop Pods, nor flying bugs. And we now know that all the freak-outs about Malefic Summoning Spam, were without merit. Ad-Lance, too. The meta shifted, and Ad-Lance is only a pain, if you didn't adjust.

Serpent Spam got its comeuppance too = Sternguard+Drop Pods+meltas.

niv-mizzet wrote:
tell your local TO to get in front of this bull and take it by the horns. Waving the cape and letting it run by is not a good option.

You let it make a pass, and watch its moves and then if it's broke, make a fix. But let it run as it is at first. Unfettered, a rules set might just be balanced, like Malefic Summoning.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There are lots of easy ways to get the Wraithguard in close range... To shrug them off as only having 12" range is not accurate.

Besides the Strategic Warlord trait that gives 3 units infiltrate? Please share, DB. I'm likely to be the one guinea pig that brings eldar Wraith/Dwep-spam to my local rtt, so I would like to give as best as can be delivered. Seriously.

We are a bunch of guys to actually see if it's broke before applying a modification.

Haemon from Dark Eldar can use Webway portal to deepstrike with no scatter as battle brothers, off the top of my head anyways.

 Peregrine wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I wrote a long summary of my feelings on this on Capture and Control.

Too bad you had to ruin a perfectly good article with ...

Perhaps his article/blog is a more appropriate place for your response?

I do not believe the Craftworlds codex will have any organizational effect on tournaments. Organizers will either host games according to the rules or with modified rules of their choosing. As to players winning using an Eldar army, it remains to be seen. I imagine there could be a high number of wins with Eldar armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There are lots of easy ways to get the Wraithguard in close range... To shrug them off as only having 12" range is not accurate.

Besides the Strategic Warlord trait that gives 3 units infiltrate? Please share, DB. I'm likely to be the one guinea pig that brings eldar Wraith/Dwep-spam to my local rtt, so I would like to give as best as can be delivered. Seriously.

We are a bunch of guys to actually see if it's broke before applying a modification.

Haemon from Dark Eldar can use Webway portal to deepstrike with no scatter as battle brothers, off the top of my head anyways.

Yep, WWP works. But DozerBlades said 'easy' ways. Paying a Dark Eldar attachment/CAD tax sounds less than that.

ZebioL - I hope that doesn't come off as dismissive or arrogant. Contribution appreciated.

There's a sizeable portion of the tournament going community that thinks that the new Eldar codex with everything allowed (other than basic tournament restrictions like only 1 LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan) is a breath of fresh air to the game, and will take the game to a better direction.

Eldar win rates probably won't change from the already good place they were at, but the emphasis on death stars will take a sizeable hit, and that's a welcome development.

The ban/restrict/change Eldar is a kneejerk reaction by the comp crowd who lost the battle in nerfing the previous top dogs like Daemons or Flyrant spam and decided to direct their madness towards the next power army that enters the game. I guess Necrons weren't offensive enough, despite being an unbelievably good army.

As far as the 'most broken book in the game ever' goes it's not even in the top 10 of all time if you count both Warhammer and Warhammer 40K together. There's nothing unprecedented here and GW making a book like this isn't a new direction or an unforeseen phenomenon, so stop acting like a bunch of drama queens and man up. The people who thought GW wasn't pushing for Apocalypse and 40K merging were simply living in denial and refused to see the signs that have been as obvious as they can get.

I'm expecting a Warhound Titan as a heavy support choice in a 40K codex at some point, for about 500 points.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

makes sense experiment>theory

 Therion wrote:
There's a sizeable portion of the tournament going community that thinks that the new Eldar codex with everything allowed (other than basic tournament restrictions like only 1 LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan) is a breath of fresh air to the game, and will take the game to a better direction.

Eldar win rates probably won't change from the already good place they were at, but the emphasis on death stars will take a sizeable hit, and that's a welcome development.

The ban/restrict/change Eldar is a kneejerk reaction by the comp crowd who lost the battle in nerfing the previous top dogs like Daemons or Flyrant spam and decided to direct their madness towards the next power army that enters the game. I guess Necrons weren't offensive enough, despite being an unbelievably good army.

As far as the 'most broken book in the game ever' goes it's not even in the top 10 of all time if you count both Warhammer and Warhammer 40K together. There's nothing unprecedented here and GW making a book like this isn't a new direction or an unforeseen phenomenon, so stop acting like a bunch of drama queens and man up.

Both funny and poignant. I like it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunhero wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It's still not time. The book needs to be used and analyzed through the lens of actual games in a competitive setting. If we just discuss using the book and no real world experiences to draw on, a mere day after release, it's still just wild conjecture and knee jerk reactions.

makes sense experiment>theory

Thanks! That's all I am trying to say.

Honestly for 295 points to deep strike one squad of wraithguard without scatter then 2 raiders to put other Eldar goodies into your list that sounds super easy and cheap to me brotherkose.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There are lots of easy ways to get the Wraithguard in close range... To shrug them off as only having 12" range is not accurate.

Besides the Strategic Warlord trait that gives 3 units infiltrate? Please share, DB. I'm likely to be the one guinea pig that brings eldar Wraith/Dwep-spam to my local rtt, so I would like to give as best as can be delivered. Seriously.

We are a bunch of guys to actually see if it's broke before applying a modification.

Haemon from Dark Eldar can use Webway portal to deepstrike with no scatter as battle brothers, off the top of my head anyways.

Wave Serpents add about 6" to their movement speed. If used as part ofthe wriathhost formation you can add another d6" to their range.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Perhaps his article/blog is a more appropriate place for your response?

He posted it here, he can deal with criticism of it here.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Honestly for 295 points to deep strike one squad of wraithguard without scatter then 2 raiders to put other Eldar goodies into your list that sounds super easy and cheap to me brotherkose.

(sarcastic, silly response):
**drools**
"Now that's just ... hold on a second."

I can field that. Haem, raiders fulla Kabalites and/or Trublasters in a Venom. Darn it, ChanceT, now I wanna try it!

- - - - - - - - -
Thanks, ChanceTragedy. You do make a good point and I do miss playing DE.

Okay, so:

1. Warlord Trait that Infiltrates 3 units (not easy to get, just a 33% chance, rerolling on the Strategic table)
2. DE help with WWP

Infiltrating Ind.Character help is out ... #3?