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Theres a piece in the BA codex that states the Flesh Tearers have the most devastating assault marines from any chapter currently. Dosent say if that hth prowess carries over to the rest of the army though.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

All round means they do not specialise in anything, meaning they will be outclassed by a Legion that does focus on close combat.
That quote is meaningless firstly because it is about the Ultramarines chapter, not the legion, and secondly because the same thing is said about the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and others. Every faction presents itself as being the best and most powerful.

All round excellence really doesn't mean that though. I'm not even saying they're the best at close combat, just the most skilled, which goes with their rigorous training and quote that no one can equal their skill. And while it does talk about the Ultramarines as a chapter, can their skill be said to have increased since their days as a Legion? As for factions presenting themselves as powerful, that's true, but of everyone the Ultramarines have the best defense, since they are said to be unmatched in skill in Codex Space Marines, which represents Space Marines in general rather than their own specific codex.

Animus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

All round means they do not specialise in anything, meaning they will be outclassed by a Legion that does focus on close combat.
That quote is meaningless firstly because it is about the Ultramarines chapter, not the legion, and secondly because the same thing is said about the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and others. Every faction presents itself as being the best and most powerful.

All round excellence really doesn't mean that though. I'm not even saying they're the best at close combat, just the most skilled, which goes with their rigorous training and quote that no one can equal their skill. And while it does talk about the Ultramarines as a chapter, can their skill be said to have increased since their days as a Legion? As for factions presenting themselves as powerful, that's true, but of everyone the Ultramarines have the best defense, since they are said to be unmatched in skill in Codex Space Marines, which represents Space Marines in general rather than their own specific codex.

Not really. Ultramarines are the posterboys of and are represented by Codex: Space Marines, it actually used to be called Codex: Ultramarines in the past. The quote is also rubbish in the Heresy era because it is the Emperor's Children, not the Ultramarines, that are famous for their unmatched skill and drive to perfection in all things.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not really. Ultramarines are the posterboys of and are represented by Codex: Space Marines, it actually used to be called Codex: Ultramarines in the past. The quote is also rubbish in the Heresy era because it is the Emperor's Children, not the Ultramarines, that are famous for their unmatched skill and drive to perfection in all things.

It's not been Codex Ultramarines since second edition, and poster boy isn't a special status, Dark Angels have had that job for a while now and they aren't doing amazing. And the quote isn't rubbish, because while the Emperor's Children might strive for perfection, that doesn't mean they attain it, and they have never been considered the most successful Legion in the same way the Ultramarines have been.

I think worldeaters,bloodangels and space wolf's are best at hand to hand, emp children are best duelists and such and altho I think that Fulgrim is strongest after horus one on one they just not close combat in my opinion, they are spear not a hammer

Pffff space wolves don't even wear helmets. Surprised anyone voted for them. Blood Angels and World Eaters are much more ferocious, skilled, and they also wear freakin helmets!

 changerofways wrote:
Pffff space wolves don't even wear helmets. Surprised anyone voted for them. Blood Angels and World Eaters are much more ferocious, skilled, and they also wear freakin helmets!

But helmets are hardly heroic.

Where are the emperor's children?

the last legion who's name escapes me.

Heck no.

Salamanders, because just being a better individual CC trooper doesn't cut it. Would rather take a marginally worse CC trooper, who's got master-crafted everything, arms and armor, plus shooting flamethrowers everywhere and all the time.

And yes I factored in the fact that Salamanders would all be slower than their other counterparts.

But their leverage is the fact that they are still space marines, their armor is better, their weapons are better, and their tactics, of burninating everything all the time, would just put the numbers in their favor.

Army of super bro Mike Tysons with flamethrowers everywhere, and the most pimp-crafted armor and weapons.

Seriously, Horus had to cowardly nuke ambush the Salamanders. Because he would have gotten ROFL-stomped by Vulkan's custom studded adamantine gak-kickers.

Again, on a 1v1 basis, Salamanders individually are slow and crappy CC, but when you factor in their master-craftedness, flames shooting all over while closing in, being a better fighter, only marginally, is not enough.

And angry and shouty isn't going to do much when you have to dive headfirst into an inferno coming out an entirely master-crafted legion of hurt.

Also, jump-packing into a flamethrower; its even worse than a shotgun, or a line of lasguns. General direction is all you need with a gun that chucks out giant fireballs of death.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Pffff space wolves don't even wear helmets. Surprised anyone voted for them. Blood Angels and World Eaters are much more ferocious, skilled, and they also wear freakin helmets!

But helmets are hardly heroic.

You don't need a helmet sillly.

You just need faith in the Emperor to protect you! Obviously the Blood Angels are just lacking in faith.

 changerofways wrote:
Pffff space wolves don't even wear helmets. Surprised anyone voted for them. Blood Angels and World Eaters are much more ferocious, skilled, and they also wear freakin helmets!

In fiction, not wearing a helmet actually makes you more likely to survive.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Pffff space wolves don't even wear helmets. Surprised anyone voted for them. Blood Angels and World Eaters are much more ferocious, skilled, and they also wear freakin helmets!

In fiction, not wearing a helmet actually makes you more likely to survive.

That's because they trade in their power armor for plot armor!

Surprised Iron Warriors haven't been mentioned yet. They should at least be in the discussion, since they were supposed to nearly match the World Eaters in sheer ferocity, and were the best at breaking into fortifications, which has to count for something. You can't fight your opponent in CC when they hide behind a wall.

Exactly why they haven't been mentioned. You can't engage in close combat while they hide behind a wall, so they use long range to destroy the wall and send hundreds of infantry to weaken them further. Yes they were ferocious, but others come to mind before them, I guess

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
But that isn't the question. 'Average of best swordman/best CC tactics', not 'who would win in a sandy pit'. World Eaters are barbarians, not swordsmen, and they have no tactics. So they score a zero on both criteria. Yes it gives them results, but we're not asking about who can rip apart the city fastest.

I love the World Eaters but hate Fulgrim, but still have to give credit where it is due.

Question isn't who are the best swordsmen either, and who do the Emperor's Children have as master swordsmen currently? Lucius is pretty much unaffiliated at this point. I'm under the impression Sanguinius would have merked Fulgrim


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Some people just voted for their favorite haha

Delicated Swarm is correct, The Iron Warriors have been likened to the World Eaters and the Blood Angels in melee.

lolwut who voted Thousand Sons??

 scommy wrote:
lolwut who voted Thousand Sons??

You'll never see the rubric raptors coming.

 Khonsu wrote:
Delicated Swarm is correct, The Iron Warriors have been likened to the World Eaters and the Blood Angels in melee.

They even have their own non-Daemon affiliated melee monsters called Iron Berserkers IIRC.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Exactly why they haven't been mentioned. You can't engage in close combat while they hide behind a wall, so they use long range to destroy the wall and send hundreds of infantry to weaken them further. Yes they were ferocious, but others come to mind before them, I guess

Yeah buts that's my point. The poll wasn't just asking about CC Skill, but also tactics. The Iron Warriors have tactics that work very well for Melee, since they can break into fortifications and charge in. Where other Legions on the list would have a much harder time getting into the breach in the first place.

 scommy wrote:
lolwut who voted Thousand Sons??

I did, just now. The other two, I don't know.

It's thought out, though. Psychic powers are by far the most adaptable tool in the box, and CQC - which, as the OP stated, means short-range firefights as well as punching people - is by far the most changeable combat situation, moment by moment. For changeable situations, you need adaptable tools.

Its not even about psychic fireballs. The Pyrae, the Thousadn Sons' answer to Salamander or Blood Angel burn squads, would be completely eclipsed in a CQC brawl by the Raptora.

Think about this: You can charge a formation of a hundred Raptora with a full chapter of World Eaters or Blood Angels, and the Raptora... will slam a barrier into place so they only have to fight fifty World Eaters at a time. Don't want to deal with those Terminators until later? Flip them on their backs, by the time they get upright again you'll have dealt with the current problem and be able to focus them down in turn.

The World Eaters may have unmatched close-combat prowess, the Salamanders may have the shiniest gear, the Emperor's Children may have ultimate sword skill... but none of that matters one jot when their opponent controls the battlefield itself. All the force in the world means nothing when the enemy directs where that force is applied.

Proper application of Telekinesis, or other powers for that matter, will let the Thousand Sons dominate in any arena. The Space Wolves, the Emperor's Executioners, specialists in killing other Astartes, could not destroy the Thousand Sons alone - they required support from the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes themselves to burn Prospero, despite outnumbering the Thousand Sons ten to one.

Seriously? How is this even a question.

Raven guard.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:

 scommy wrote:
lolwut who voted Thousand Sons??

I did, just now. The other two, I don't know.

It's thought out, though. Psychic powers are by far the most adaptable tool in the box, and CQC - which, as the OP stated, means short-range firefights as well as punching people - is by far the most changeable combat situation, moment by moment. For changeable situations, you need adaptable tools.

Its not even about psychic fireballs. The Pyrae, the Thousadn Sons' answer to Salamander or Blood Angel burn squads, would be completely eclipsed in a CQC brawl by the Raptora.

Think about this: You can charge a formation of a hundred Raptora with a full chapter of World Eaters or Blood Angels, and the Raptora... will slam a barrier into place so they only have to fight fifty World Eaters at a time. Don't want to deal with those Terminators until later? Flip them on their backs, by the time they get upright again you'll have dealt with the current problem and be able to focus them down in turn.

The World Eaters may have unmatched close-combat prowess, the Salamanders may have the shiniest gear, the Emperor's Children may have ultimate sword skill... but none of that matters one jot when their opponent controls the battlefield itself. All the force in the world means nothing when the enemy directs where that force is applied.

Proper application of Telekinesis, or other powers for that matter, will let the Thousand Sons dominate in any arena. The Space Wolves, the Emperor's Executioners, specialists in killing other Astartes, could not destroy the Thousand Sons alone - they required support from the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes themselves to burn Prospero, despite outnumbering the Thousand Sons ten to one.

That's also after Magnus told them not to resist.

I'm confident that if Magnus had told them to fight, the thousand sons would have destroyed the space wolves.

Your missing faction is the Emperor's Children, and I think they're a strong candidate. In the HH books you see their close combat drill at such a level of perfection that the officers can stand their preening themselves and issuing challenges while the enemy doesn't even stand a chance of touching them.

Oh, and Iron_Captain already said that. Ah, well. My point still stands. They excel at close combat while not focusing excessively on melee. Granted, Raven Guard's stealth tactics also put them in the running, and the Blood Angels legion was ferocious while avoiding the World Eaters' absurd bum-rushing tactics. It's a tough call.

If the Emperor was looking for Extermination as a final result, he sent the World Eaters. The Night Lords could bring worlds into compliance through fear and intimidation, but when the World Eaters were assigned to bring worlds into the Imperium it meant in a body bag.

I'd say World Eaters were best simply for their unrelenting savage brutality. No one wanted a piece of them cause they never stopped. As Kharn said the Space Wolves are disciplined, but they are collared and heel when the Emperor calls. The World Eaters were the Emperor's weapon not hound..

I voted Space Wolves...
Why?

Angron and his World Eaters were VERY good in CC but had massive casualties each and every battle. They also lost themselves to the nails quite frequently.

Sanguinius and his Blood angels are very good in CC as well. But once again suffer from a flaw that forgoes reason and makes them berserk... (not all of them but enough)

Russ and his SW are very good in CC as well,... they get Ferocious but do not lose reason all that much as the 2 above. They do not senselessly throw themselves at the enemy. They do think about casualties... So that is why i voted for them cause overall they are the most balanced of the CC armies. In my opinion of course.

Id say that Dark Angels and Emperors children are also decent candidates.

I think we forgot the angry marines BLASPEHMY!!!

 Jimsolo wrote:
World Eaters. Approach you enemy with enough aggression and he will be forced to abandon strategy and answer in kind. And once he is fighting your way, you will have the advantage. A shockingly intelligent battle doctrine.

Yes it is derived from the Orks. Everyone knows, green is best.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I voted Space Wolves...
Why?

Angron and his World Eaters were VERY good in CC but had massive casualties each and every battle. They also lost themselves to the nails quite frequently.

Sanguinius and his Blood angels are very good in CC as well. But once again suffer from a flaw that forgoes reason and makes them berserk... (not all of them but enough)

Russ and his SW are very good in CC as well,... they get Ferocious but do not lose reason all that much as the 2 above. They do not senselessly throw themselves at the enemy. They do think about casualties... So that is why i voted for them cause overall they are the most balanced of the CC armies. In my opinion of course.

Id say that Dark Angels and Emperors children are also decent candidates.

Since we're talking about legions and not chapters, then the Blood Angels did not have a prominent flaw. The Red Thirst was appearing very rarely, and the Black Rage didn't exist yet.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I voted Space Wolves...
Why?

Angron and his World Eaters were VERY good in CC but had massive casualties each and every battle. They also lost themselves to the nails quite frequently.

Sanguinius and his Blood angels are very good in CC as well. But once again suffer from a flaw that forgoes reason and makes them berserk... (not all of them but enough)

Russ and his SW are very good in CC as well,... they get Ferocious but do not lose reason all that much as the 2 above. They do not senselessly throw themselves at the enemy. They do think about casualties... So that is why i voted for them cause overall they are the most balanced of the CC armies. In my opinion of course.

Id say that Dark Angels and Emperors children are also decent candidates.

Since we're talking about legions and not chapters, then the Blood Angels did not have a prominent flaw. The Red Thirst was appearing very rarely, and the Black Rage didn't exist yet.

Whoops.... my bad! Then...yeah it might just have been the Blood Angels