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 Carnage43 wrote:

fidel wrote:Wait if there is no Master of the Forge how do we then fit multiple relics of the armoury into our list (since things like double sicaran needed a MOTF)

You don't. It's now impossible until FW changes something.

Red Corsair wrote:lmao 3 man iron clad dread units with rerolls to run and hit and run.... so much stupid in that book.

You are getting hit and run....how? My understanding is that the WS chapter tactic doesn't have it anymore.

WS still have it. Look at the pictures posted a few pages back.

Man templar dread units will get rage and counter attack after you kill one of them too lol. I think white scar, smurfs and BT will have the best dreads. The others don't gain anything really.

Wow with helbrekt they get hartred, fleet and if they killed an iron clad the remaining two would have 7 attacks on the charge each rerolling misses! ROFL!

Part of me wants to start a BT army now... Hordes of Crusaders and Dreads rushing across the field would be an amazing sight.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Part of me wants to start a BT army now... Hordes of Crusaders and Dreads rushing across the field would be an amazing sight.

Yea I think it would be decent too. With helbrekt your getting so many USR's.

Raven Dread gets stealth lol

Unfortunately they don't. Only non-vehicle models get Shrouded.

Unless you mean Stealth from NF, in which case they do. But so do Rhinos and they don't have CT.



Hmm... I just realised the new wording means only Dreads benefit from the IWND! part of the IH chapter tactics as no other vehicles are, RAW, IH vehicles

So... anyone know what the new chappy looks like? Still as useless as ever? (save for unlocking the battle company?)

As far as I can see Gits, chaplains haven't changed at all.

Still useless... *sigh*

I have a problem with this 'free transport' thing.

Transports have a value. They've been given points values. This formation just allows you to take more points than your limit. I know that Rhinos aren't all that, but even so, it's free stuff for no real downside that I can see.

The payment is in terms of lack of unit flexibility. The less options something has, the cheaper it is.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The payment is in terms of lack of unit flexibility. The less options something has, the cheaper it is.

Evidence? That is totally not true when GW is involved. Point values are derived from what GW thinks they should be, which most likely has no coherent strategy behind it. Free points are bad in a game primarily balanced via points.

Honestly I'm surprised GW didn't try to release a bunch of "new" SM units for this codex just to get people to buy more.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The payment is in terms of lack of unit flexibility. The less options something has, the cheaper it is.

This is an overused logical fallacy. People were going to take drop troops in pod lists for example, regardless of the new formation, especially devestators with the new grav canons. The free pods basically give them extra free units. in a Cad for example I'd need two troops before I got heavy or FA slots for drop assault squads and devastators and just the two pods for them comes to 70 pts. In the new formation I may need 3 troops but hey look, those two pods I would have taken anyway are worth those same 70 points i am now spending on a 3rd squad only now they also get a free pod as well, so I am netting a free drop pod and a 5 man troop squad, how is that inflexible?

CAD
70 + 35 + 70 + 35= 210 for 4 units

Demi
70 + 0 + 70 + 0 + 70 + 0 = 210 for 6 units

Both have obsec

It's definitely just free stuff to get you to purchase more.

I did a lot of work in the updating of the old vehicle design rules (link in SIG) and I found that the more restrictive a races base vehicle options were, the cheaper their weapons and upgrades turned out to be.

When you look at tactical marines compared to dire avengers you have to say "OK, dire avengers do more damage to things with wounds hands down" but, what can they do at all against armor 11-12? If two of them die, how likely is it they will contribute next turn? What upgrades are available to the unit to allow it to tackle other problems? The marines pay points for better survivability, better melee damage output, and more versatility.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a problem with this 'free transport' thing.

Transports have a value. They've been given points values. This formation just allows you to take more points than your limit. I know that Rhinos aren't all that, but even so, it's free stuff for no real downside that I can see.

Didn't you read Talys' defense of this? It's okay because they shouldn't fix the main problems with Marines anyway!

Whatever...tacticals are the single most boring and useless unit in the book now that scouts get WS/BS 4. Why take a company when the rest is so interesting?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. They're outclassed by other infantry. Looking "elite" is not the same AS actually being elite. You have people that whine over ATSKNF and grenades, but the former doesn't get used because they die quickly and the latter never gets used because you'd have to be a REALLY bad player to have a Tactical Marine charge your Wave Serpent.

2. You actually aren't serious are you? Scatterbikes put out more shots than Wave Serpents for the points and still have a ridiculous range.

3. So you're admitting that the codices are just poorly written. If you absolutely have to ally in something because the core army you WANT to play is that weak, there's a glaring problem in the codex writing. Eldar and Necrons do not have this problem, and they're singular armies. Space Marines are a singular army and SHOULD be able to hold their own. Except they can't.

4. This isn't tanks we're dealing with. We're dealing with Necron Warriors and Scatterbikes.

Well, briefly:

1. Tacticals are really no worse than Guardians. They both kinda suck. Thrown them on a bike/jetbike and give them a good weapon, and that's something different. ATSKNF is great as a freebie. Scouts are something fierce now. Devastators with grav have potential, I think.

2. 6e WS is harder to beat than 7e Scatterbikes, if that's mostly all your opponent is playing. You can barely move 1850 points of scatterbikes on a 6x4 table with any amount of meaningful terrain, for starters. On the other hand, serpent spam allows you to hug edges to prevent exposing rear facing, and the 60" ranges allows you too shoot/advance to keep your WS out of harms way (so that you never have to jink). Any way, both are extremely noobish lists that are really not good for anything other than stomping other new players and making them feel bad.

3. Well, I think there's pages of this thread where people would disagree. Space Marines in 7e codex will do just fine on their own. They might do BETTER with allies, but hey, if they didn't, why would you ever take allies? If you don't like allies, too bad. They're in the game.

4. As I said, you can't compare a tactical marine with a scatter bike. Compare a biker marine with a grav gun with a guardian on a jetbike with a scatter laser, and then we can talk. Or, if you want, compare a guardian with a tactical. Anyway, comparing 1 unit to 1 unit is a lost cause in 40k, because you have to compare 1 army to 1 army; and really, 1 potential alliance to 1 potential alliance (even including Allies of Convenience) if you're talking about competitive play.

Anyways, back to the relevant topic -- the new codex. Space Marines are going to be a top tier codex with a zillion different cool tricks. Personally, I suspect, it will be the most versatile in terms of being able to generate the number of viable builds in the "competent to competitive" range of lists.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The payment is in terms of lack of unit flexibility. The less options something has, the cheaper it is.

This is an overused logical fallacy. People were going to take drop troops in pod lists for example, regardless of the new formation, especially devestators with the new grav canons. The free pods basically give them extra free units. in a Cad for example I'd need two troops before I got heavy or FA slots for drop assault squads and devastators and just the two pods for them comes to 70 pts. In the new formation I may need 3 troops but hey look, those two pods I would have taken anyway are worth those same 70 points i am now spending on a 3rd squad only now they also get a free pod as well, so I am netting a free drop pod and a 5 man troop squad, how is that inflexible?

CAD
70 + 35 + 70 + 35= 210 for 4 units

Demi
70 + 0 + 70 + 0 + 70 + 0 = 210 for 6 units

Both have obsec

It's definitely just free stuff to get you to purchase more.

Well, if you want the free transports, you have to buy 6 tactical squads.

So depending on what you want, it could be better, could be worse...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a problem with this 'free transport' thing.

Transports have a value. They've been given points values. This formation just allows you to take more points than your limit. I know that Rhinos aren't all that, but even so, it's free stuff for no real downside that I can see.

Didn't you read Talys' defense of this? It's okay because they shouldn't fix the main problems with Marines anyway!

Free transports isn't as big a deal as everyone is making it out to be. Honestly, it's about the only thing GW could do in addition to improved Chapter Tactics without buffing Astartes to the level of movie marines.

Sure, you can MSU combat-squad your way into getting everyone a free soda can/METAL BOX. This isn't nearly as good an idea as it sounds. All that it means is that you're spending points that could have gone toward valuable upgrades and more durable/faster units on getting enough bodies to fill the formation requirement. And, lest we forget, only cowards and fools hide in METAL BOXES. Take away the box/soda can, and the MSU die like any 5-man Tac Squad.

It's the same idea as the new Skitarii/Mechanicus/Knights formation that gives you free relics and upgrades. Powerful on paper, but not a good idea on the tabletop.

And besides, free points/units/upgrades have been aroudn since 7th edition launched. It's called summoning Daemons. RAW everyone can do that!

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Whatever...tacticals are the single most boring and useless unit in the book now that scouts get WS/BS 4. Why take a company when the rest is so interesting?

Because tacticals are a 70 point unit that get a free 55 point vehicle -- making the 5 tactical marines 3 points per model. And they are the steal of a lifetime for that price! Or, to put it another way, for 90 points, you get 5 tactical marines with bolters and grenades plus a las/plas razorback or lascannon razoerback. There is nothing in any codex that can beat that for 90 points. Or add spare change at the end of your listbuidling and give a tactical a flamer/melta/plasma.

Also, don't discount the combat doctrines. That's a potential game winner.

MSU rhino/razorback parking lot spam is back.

It's like 5th edtion all over again, and vehicles is going to be en vogue again.

:shrug:

GW... you magnificant bastard. (obvious cash grab ploy)

I'm not sure if this has been covered or not because there are 92 pages worth of banter/information regarding the new codex. Are the formations requiring you to have a full squad of ten marines and can you upgrade a free razorback to include Las cannons? I can see some massive potential for abuse if that's the case.

 Inkubas wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been covered or not because there are 92 pages worth of banter/information regarding the new codex. Are the formations requiring you to have a full squad of ten marines and can you upgrade a free razorback to include Las cannons? I can see some massive potential for abuse if that's the case.

- No, you just need 5-man tactical squads (it has no minimum model restriction in the demi-company formation)
- Yes, you can upgrade them to include lascannons, but you need to pay for the 20 point upgrade (it specifically says so). You can take las + twinlink plasma for 20 points too, of course. If you want to buy lots of FW upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
MSU rhino/razorback parking lot spam is back.

It's like 5th edtion all over again, and vehicles is going to be en vogue again.

:shrug:

GW... you magnificant bastard. (obvious cash grab ploy)

That was exactly the first thing I thought hahaha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheNewBlood - you get a lot more models and a lot more utility out of the SM free stuff than the Cult Mechanicus, plus, you have a lot more points to work with afterwards. I think it has much more potential.

The actual amount of overhead is 1 devastator squad 6 tactical squad (for which you get 7 razorbacks), if you take bikes and 1 devastator centurion squad. And that's very little, considering that you're only taking 70 point squads. You could even make the devastator squad good and give them a drop pod instead. And don't forget Objective Secured on everything, down to the chapter master, the centurions, razorbacks, drop pods... all of it. That's a point scoring machine -- plus doctrines work on all models in the company, too. Potentially 3 turns of rerolls for the deathstar (UM, Company, Calgar) is awesome.

Also, the benefit only comes with a full company, so 6 tactical squads, 4 devestators, 4 assault, a captain and a chaplain. That seems pretty restrictive to me

Edit: wow, should have hit refresh

Thank you. Personally, I don't mind having 6 Iron Hands razorbacks with TL-LC for 120. Throw in DA ally with a PWG for extra fun.

all this wonderful stuff is givng me grand hopes for my DAs

I do like the Scout buffs, since I planned on running more of them anyways, and as far as BA and SW feeling thrown under the bus... Join us in CHAOS!

Also those min point squads are going to not really do anything and your arguments imply that all points are created equal. They are not, otherwise we would see everything being used. points are not equal between units in efficiency nor in how they are priced. Rhinos compared to drop pods? No question which gets taken more, when was the last time anyone saw a razorback. I might take them at 35 points.

Razorbacks are not worth 55 points, tacticals are not worth 70. However here is no really good way to price them differently without opening up a whole lot of issues. At the base points you get 5 bolters and a heavy bolter whoopie who cares. Marines can't get the specialization in their basic squads that would make them worth taking. Now here is at least a little incentive to take those squads who are not worth it normally.

I have all the models for that formation and it is probably not going to be run very often. Most of the army is just sitting there doing next to nothing and if I spend points on it I am just throwing good points after bad if I want the units that get free transports.

Like Scouts really needed more of a bump, but the Cerberus Launcher on the Land Speeder Storm got a bump. It is Str4 AP6 now. It used to be Str2 AP-, so yay for that!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Unfortunately they don't. Only non-vehicle models get Shrouded.

Unless you mean Stealth from NF, in which case they do. But so do Rhinos and they don't have CT.



Hmm... I just realised the new wording means only Dreads benefit from the IWND! part of the IH chapter tactics as no other vehicles are, RAW, IH vehicles

Oh FFS GW, you didn't shat on the Iron Hands enough last time?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

It's the same idea as the new Skitarii/Mechanicus/Knights formation that gives you free relics and upgrades. Powerful on paper, but not a good idea on the tabletop.

Except for that we have, you know, video evidence that the Skitarii/CultMech/Knight formation is pretty fantastic. Check Frontline's twitch channel. Giving the Skitarii and Knight Canticles is amazing on its own, nevermind the metric ton of free stuff you get.

Out of interest, how would you deal - without list tailoring mind you - with an MSU-Razorspam Battle Company list? You can't beat them on objectives because literally everything has ObSec and the force has enough units to put several on each objective; you likely can't table them with an all-comers list in the span of a normal game, so which tournament lists can deal with enough of those small units and Razorbacks to win on KPs(assuming the mission uses KPs), taking into account that such a list still has enough points after taking the mandatory stuff to include a pretty sickening amount of grav and other heavy/special weaponry.