Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I agree, they have different roles. The best comparison between the imperial knights and the wraithknight is the two specialist melee variants, the lancer (which I detailed above) and the gallant.

The gallant has the same number of attacks in melee, the ability to throw monstrous creatures/ vehicles it kills and has a heavy stubber while sharing the other features of the imperial knights. With the additional 60 points I think should be on the wraithknight, the melee version would be 30 points more expensive and would have no ranged damage potential. The primary threats to both of these in melee (besides haywire grenades) from any infantry unit are unwieldy, so the +1 initiative the wraithknight has doesn't matter against those.

I personally think the heavy wraith cannons cost 65-70 points each, which puts them at 10-15 points more than the D-cannon artillery weapons. (I'll be adding them shortly to the updated vehicle design rules linked in my signature) and the D weapons do d3 wounds 2/3 of the time, does nothing 1/6 of the time, and kills something deader than dead 1/6 of the time. Also remember, the destroyer weapon upgrade actually made the gun slightly weaker against armor value 10-11 because the str 10 auto penned av10 and auto glanced av11, those vehicles now have a 1/6 chance at nothing happening, and it was ap2, so any vehicle that wasn't superheavy died automatically if I rolled a 6 on the damage table anyway. (I don't like the D weapons getting to roll on the damage table as well, feels like double dipping to me. Got rid of that at my house)

Make it a Monstrous Creature again, maybe tone down the range of that D weapon, I also like the idea of it being a psychically charged construct, so that X amount of Warp Charge have to be put towards making it function, but that's just my opinion.

I don't like it at all, but like every other Super-Heavy that's been introduced into 40k I have to live with it, that said I play Necrons, so everyone else has to live with that too xD

Honestly the whole D weapon thing is a stupid design anyways. It breaks all the normal rules used for wounds/hull points in the rest of the game for no good reason except because its "betterer" (yes that's on purpose) than other guns.

Anything D makes me want to rip my hair out. Its a rule anomaly that just needs to die.

 Fleshrott wrote:
Make it a Monstrous Creature again, maybe tone down the range of that D weapon, I also like the idea of it being a psychically charged construct, so that X amount of Warp Charge have to be put towards making it function, but that's just my opinion.

I don't like it at all, but like every other Super-Heavy that's been introduced into 40k I have to live with it, that said I play Necrons, so everyone else has to live with that too xD

Making them spend warp charges sounds like a cool idea, but what if they don't have any psyckers? What does it do in the first movement phase of the game before warp charges are accrued? Does it move in the psychic phase instead? If you don't have enough charges to run it, is it worth 300 points?

That isn't synergy, that is a handicap that forces people to play a certain way with any of their lists. Whether they want to or not. It is one of the things for tyranids that I hate is that synapse only keep bad thing from happening that are built in problems their own units have. Low leadership, countered by fearless is cool, but there is no counter balance for some of the units becoming useless or killing themselves if they aren't in synapse range.

Would of been funny if they where just considered blind if there are no eldar psykers within like 12"

wasnt this a thing back when?

the effect sounds familiar. (not in the nid way but mean this was a thing with eldar wasnt it?)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Fleshrott wrote:
Make it a Monstrous Creature again, maybe tone down the range of that D weapon, I also like the idea of it being a psychically charged construct, so that X amount of Warp Charge have to be put towards making it function, but that's just my opinion.

I don't like it at all, but like every other Super-Heavy that's been introduced into 40k I have to live with it, that said I play Necrons, so everyone else has to live with that too xD

Making them spend warp charges sounds like a cool idea, but what if they don't have any psyckers? What does it do in the first movement phase of the game before warp charges are accrued? Does it move in the psychic phase instead? If you don't have enough charges to run it, is it worth 300 points?

That isn't synergy, that is a handicap that forces people to play a certain way with any of their lists. Whether they want to or not. It is one of the things for tyranids that I hate is that synapse only keep bad thing from happening that are built in problems their own units have. Low leadership, countered by fearless is cool, but there is no counter balance for some of the units becoming useless or killing themselves if they aren't in synapse range.

If they don't have psykers then they don't get to use their super OP wraithknight. Sounds good to me!
Besides, it makes it so that armies focus less on killing the actual WK, and focus more on the support psykers which in turn will need infantry to soak up wound which leads to more TAC and less OMG MOAR Wraithknights!

 Powerfisting wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the OPs proposal about implementing warp charges to make the WK work? that would require... actual synergy!

And then you're playing Warmachine

Count as blind against targets not within 18" of an Eldar Psyker would be a really awesome rule. But you'd probably have to rework Wraith constructs as a whole to really make it work.

It would be awesome if all Wraithguard gained Slow & Purposeful, and all Wraith constructs were Blind against enemies not within 18" of a CWE psyker (ML1 at least). They could probably all stay at their current points, even.

That said, the much simpler change is the points thing, IMO. Its not always the best fix, but fits well here.

Durandal wrote:


The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

Where is my LoW for my DE army?

You mean if I bring revent titan?

In fact, ranged D-weapons pretty much invalidate most big vehicles. A single 6 across the game and my 800 pt stompa goes poof.

Make those guns Apocalyptic (10") Blast!

 Exergy wrote:

Durandal wrote:


The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

Where is my LoW for my DE army?

You mean if I bring revent titan?

Or you could grab one the superheavy tanks, like a scorpion or lynx. For less than 100 points more (iirc) you not only trump the wraithknight, but also threaten anything else the opponent can bring to bear.

I like the OP's idea. Not as a fix, but as a mission.

Both sides have a GC/SHV for free. Neither GC/SHV is actually used however. The mission objective is to activate yours while preventing your opponent from activating theirs.

So for example, Wraithknights and Tyrand Gargantuan Creatures require a certain number of successful Psychic Tests (maybe a Warp Charge 4 cost, requires 6 successful tests, can be denied), where as a Stompa requires a like number of "Repair rolls" (which for fairness can be denied as well).

You win if at the end of the game your SHV/GC is activated and your opponents is not.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Durandal wrote:


The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

Where is my LoW for my DE army?

You mean if I bring revent titan?

Or you could grab one the superheavy tanks, like a scorpion or lynx. For less than 100 points more (iirc) you not only trump the wraithknight, but also threaten anything else the opponent can bring to bear.

So your answer to a WK is to take a 100pt more expensive super heavy....So as someone already pointed out 1 WK vs 1 stompa....Stompa probably loses and it costs about 450 more pts then the stupid WK. Your 100% right, WK aren't broken. Its just the Stompa's fault for taking on the Buffdars.

When have Orks ever been competitive?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
When have Orks ever been competitive?

Never, but it would be nice if we could get some stupidly OP buffs as well.

The last two Ork Codex's I feel have been test codexs you know find the biggest problems in them and then do a SM codex to maximize the successes and minimize the failures.

Just checking. I do agree that GW tries to make Orks similar to, but not quite as good as, other armies.

It's always been my opinion that GW looks at Orks as something of a "joke" army, wherein combat effectiveness is more by accident than design. So the notion that they should be an even battlefield counter to Eldar seemed a bit odd to me. OTOH, WK vs C'Tan / Greater Daemon / Chaos Knight? I could see that as more of an even matchup.

Regardless, Orks have characterfulness and a style that sets them apart from pretty much any other army. I think that's cool, and would gladly play Orks casually - they're pretty much an ideal opponent for my Guard..

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Durandal wrote:


The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

Where is my LoW for my DE army?

You mean if I bring revent titan?

Or you could grab one the superheavy tanks, like a scorpion or lynx. For less than 100 points more (iirc) you not only trump the wraithknight, but also threaten anything else the opponent can bring to bear.

So your answer to a WK is to take a 100pt more expensive super heavy....So as someone already pointed out 1 WK vs 1 stompa....Stompa probably loses and it costs about 450 more pts then the stupid WK. Your 100% right, WK aren't broken. Its just the Stompa's fault for taking on the Buffdars.

The stompa has a chance to survive the dreaded 6 on a destroyer weapon and has a str 10,7" blast with a 6' range, as well as several largeblast krakk missiles a bunch of other piddly guns, and the ability to negate one of the Orks biggest weaknesses in their leadership. Again, specialist versus generalist. A stompa can kill an entire army by itself, but would have trouble with the wraithknights, the wraithknights would destroy a stompa with roughly equal points, but would have trouble with a whole army. Counters to counters and all that.

My suggestion was a good one because for that extra 100 points, you get almost double the fire power, better movement, and with the change I presented earlier it would only be 50 more points. Two strD large blasts on a vehicle that ignores half of the hits thrown at it from up to 60" away is a much better weapons platform IMO.

Honestly the diea of multiple WKs in a detachment rubs me the wrong way for fluff reasons.

Wraithknights are basicly powered by eldar twins when 1 dies and the other lives...

How common is that in eldar society? you'd think it'd be INSANELY RARE

In Eldar society, they are a dying race. But they have very advanced technology. It is reasonable to assume that they use advance fertility techniques, with the same proportionate increase in twins / triplets that we see from IVF and other human fertility treatments.

Ergo, one may reasonably expect that any Eldar society bent on expansion / reclamation would have many twins, and train them all as WK pilots. Naturally, these expansionist / reclamationist Eldar would be more visible to Imperial / other lesser races.

After reading the various ideas on this thread, I came up with a potential answer, that IMHO is a good fluff rule that would add some strategy to the way one plays Wraith units.

Basically I want to bring back the old Wraithsight rule (which some of you may rmember from the Eldar COdex back in 4th & 5th ed), but I want to add some to it to both account for the different power level of Wraith unitsand fits a little better with 7th ed rules.

I'm thinking something along these lines:

"Wraithsight (X): At the beginning of each psychic phase, after Warp Charges are generated, roll a d6 for each unit with this special rule. If the result is equal to or greater than X, that unit contunes to operate normally. If the test is failed than that unit may take no voluntary actions until your next psychic phase (cannot move, shoot, or attack in CC), and are treated as WS 1 for the purpose of being hit in CC. Before this roll is made, if there is a psyker within 12" of this model, you may expend a warp charge to add 1 to the result."

And the various Wraith units would have a different number for X, I was thinking:
Wraithlord (2)
Wraithguard (3)
Wraithblades (3)
Hemlock Wraithfighter (3)
Wraithknight (4)

So the more powerful the unit, the more likely you are to fail the test, unless you siphon in your psychic energy.

Without a psyker on the table this means the WK only has a 50% chance of operating, and even with psykers you have to cut into your potential (and move units carefully) to guarantee full operation.

It's a work in progress, and something I'll probably tweak, but I'm seriously considering convincing my play group to use this as a house rule. (note: I'm the most frequent Eldar player in the gorup, and thus the one who'd be nerfing himself with this rule.)

So, what do you all think?

chanceafs wrote:
After reading the various ideas on this thread, I came up with a potential answer, that IMHO is a good fluff rule that would add some strategy to the way one plays Wraith units.

Basically I want to bring back the old Wraithsight rule (which some of you may rmember from the Eldar COdex back in 4th & 5th ed), but I want to add some to it to both account for the different power level of Wraith unitsand fits a little better with 7th ed rules.

I'm thinking something along these lines:

"Wraithsight (X): At the beginning of each psychic phase, after Warp Charges are generated, roll a d6 for each unit with this special rule. If the result is equal to or greater than X, that unit contunes to operate normally. If the test is failed than that unit may take no voluntary actions until your next psychic phase (cannot move, shoot, or attack in CC), and are treated as WS 1 for the purpose of being hit in CC. Before this roll is made, if there is a psyker within 12" of this model, you may expend a warp charge to add 1 to the result."

And the various Wraith units would have a different number for X, I was thinking:
Wraithlord (2)
Wraithguard (3)
Wraithblades (3)
Hemlock Wraithfighter (3)
Wraithknight (4)

So the more powerful the unit, the more likely you are to fail the test, unless you siphon in your psychic energy.

Without a psyker on the table this means the WK only has a 50% chance of operating, and even with psykers you have to cut into your potential (and move units carefully) to guarantee full operation.

It's a work in progress, and something I'll probably tweak, but I'm seriously considering convincing my play group to use this as a house rule. (note: I'm the most frequent Eldar player in the gorup, and thus the one who'd be nerfing himself with this rule.)

So, what do you all think?

I really like that mechanic but honestly, its a bit too crippling. I wouldnt wish instinctive behaviour on any race as its annoying as hell. I discussed wraithsight coming back with my friends before the codex released and we all thought a 3+ with reroll if a spiritseer is within 12 would be cool.

yeah... any form of Wraithsight coming back would greatly help quiet the anger about how broken the WK is. I just came up with this because of the fluff nature of it (actually needing Warp charges for the psykers to reign in the wraith). And I liked the added level of tactics involved in not only deciding ifyou wanted to expend the WC, but how much you wanted to. My first incarnation of the rule had 1 WC to negate the need to test, but that didn't seem very balanced against the power level of various Wraith, and becomes a well of course I'm going to use 1 WC to make my WK able to kill anything... 3 WC on the other hand is a a cost you have to consider... or burning 2 WC to make it very likely your WK will act, but still have a chance it won't. It adds a level of 'how bad do you want it?" that I really like.

Fluffwise, the WK would need less WC to function in this system, since there is a living Eldar pilot inside.

 Galef wrote:
Fluffwise, the WK would need less WC to function in this system, since there is a living Eldar pilot inside.

One could just as easily argue that the living pilots symbiosis with the construct could leave it more susceptable to the disparity in how the world around it is perceive. Or one could just say that given the relative size of the creature, having a human pilot is the only thing that makes it operable at all, much less brings it in to the realm of normal use with psychic support.

So fluffwise it could go either way... game balance wise the WK clearly needs the most balancing.