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With a lot of Eldar lists revolving around Bikes with S D weapons, Tau seem like they have an edge against the army. Although Eldar are super fast, the S D weapons seem to have a short range, around 18". Since Tau can Ignore Cover with Markerlights and their Riptides/Broadsides having a huge range, do Tau pose a good threat against the new Eldar book?

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I always found tau to be a excellant counter to my eldar because of how insanely good markerlights are at ignoring cover which is all previous codex eldar had to survive on (jink saves).

now,wraithknights were already a nice counter to riptides once they got in melee, now they can sit back and kill them at range with ease. The bikes can pop out and hide back behind cover should be in the eldar players favor, and the only improved aspect of this matchup i think for tau is the ease of units with interceptor and the high probability that eldar players start taking more deep striking units like warp spiders and swooping hawks or intercepting planes if somebody shows up with the very good eldar 3 man crimson hunter airforce.

overall, i think the matchup is not as good for tau as it was previously.
   
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If Tau get alpha striked by lots of s6 shooting they will keel over.

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The Y'varhra Riptide might be surprisingly good against Eldar. Having two Str 6 AP2 flamers with torrent should roost a fair bit of the bikers, and is fast enough to be close to them thanks to it being able to move like a swooping flying monstrous creature. As for the D weapons on the wraith guard again its fast enough to either manuever itself if they are on the board, or get away from them when they deep strike in, if it somehow survives a round of shooting from them. Just my thoughts having played against multiple of them many times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 17:43:57


Everything I say, barring quotes and researched information, is my personal opinion. Not fact.

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There's a lot of Skyfire in the new Eldar Codex, I've heard, not sure that being FMC-like is as much a saving grace as it used to be.

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I think Tau have a lot of merit against trixy eldar.

a few skyrays will devastate eldar bike trickery and IIRC can really put a hurt on the wraithknight.

Plenty of kroot chaff units to bubble wrap against WWP wraith units. as well an attempt to hurt them a bit with all the intercept available.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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Absolutely not. Riptides are now a Liability. Wraithknights absolutely destroy them and Tau have no good counters for them short of trying to Alpha Strike them with three SkyRays and hoping to drop one. ScatterBikes bring enough firepower to kill everything else with ease.

Eldar bring more mobility and firepower than an entire Tau army from their Troops alone.

Eldar have superior mobility.

Tau have no counter for the Wraithknight and the Wraithknight makes Riptides a liability.

Tau are significantly weaker when compared to the new Eldar. This shouldn't come as a surprise as everything in the Eldar Codex is significantly better except Serpents.

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What changed on the WK again? (honest question)

GMC gives them the bonus of a 5+ FNP. they are still T8 3+ armor 6 wounds and gives up the D for that invul save. (right?)

Would take at least 3 near full volley Skyrays to deal with exactly one. two can get it pretty close.




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
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I think typical tourney tau have among the best chances of winning against typical tourney eldar among the armies, but I would still call the game in the eldar favor from the start. Also, in ITC, there are maelstrom objectives to consider. Every time the tau rolls linebreaker or hold enemy-side objective, they miss a point, whereas the eldar can realistically try for those.

I think it's something like a 65-35 advantage for the eldar before factoring player skill differences.

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The main guns on the wraithknight are 36" S: D cannons. 1 Shot each so 2 S: D Shots at 36" per turn per wraithknight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:19:07


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 Desubot wrote:
What changed on the WK again? (honest question)

GMC gives them the bonus of a 5+ FNP. they are still T8 3+ armor 6 wounds and gives up the D for that invul save. (right?)

Would take at least 3 near full volley Skyrays to deal with exactly one. two can get it pretty close.




Well the 240 point load-out with 2 heavy d cannons didnt have an invo save. It could get a 5+ invo and suncannon for what I remember being way too much points. Something like 40.

In any case...its now 6+ to wound with poison. It gets a 5+ save and a 3+ save vs non AP 3
and it can fire at different targets with a superior weapon - can also fire more than 2 weapons - and gets stomp attacks in CC.

Basically the the most overpowered unit in the game now.

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 Xerics wrote:
The main guns on the wraithknight are 36" S: D cannons. 1 Shot each so 2 S: D Shots at 36" per turn per wraithknight.


So realistically a 48 " threat range? vs the 72?" for the Ion accelerator?

i think Tau should have an ok time dealing with it but it has to be all or nothing against it. which is definitely in favor for eldar since its predictable.

But as above the objective game is where tau are kinda in trouble for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:22:06


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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To be fair - no current codex is a counter to new eldar.

To say such a thing is kind of like saying - "Is bronze a good counter to steel?"

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 Desubot wrote:
 Xerics wrote:
The main guns on the wraithknight are 36" S: D cannons. 1 Shot each so 2 S: D Shots at 36" per turn per wraithknight.


So realistically a 48 " threat range? vs the 72?" for the Ion accelerator?

i think Tau should have an ok time dealing with it but it has to be all or nothing against it. which is definitely in favor for eldar since its predictable.

But as above the objective game is where tau are kinda in trouble for sure.


I don't know what the STR on an Ion Accelerator are but I had a Dark Eldar Player pumping Dark Lance shots at one of my wraithknights and he still never managed to kill 1 out of the 4 I brought. Yeah you can JSJ with riptide but you aren't gunna be able to escape forever, especially if they bring multiple wraithknights.

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3 shots st7 ap2.

Skyray have 6 missiles at st8 ap3.

assuming best case scenario with 2 skyrays with some pathfinder 36" markerlight support or what not 6 of those missiles should wound. of which 2 get FNPed.

riptide should be able to deal a little less than 1 wound after that. per turn.

4 wraithknights i highly doubt anyone can really deal with that. besides the objective game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:30:12


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
What changed on the WK again? (honest question)

GMC gives them the bonus of a 5+ FNP. they are still T8 3+ armor 6 wounds and gives up the D for that invul save. (right?)

Would take at least 3 near full volley Skyrays to deal with exactly one. two can get it pretty close.





Yep, 5+FNP means it gained +50% durability vs Tau. And it has Ranged D, and a host of other advantages all for a +23% increase in cost.

So, now we have to take off 9 effective wounds.

Without Cover it now takes 22 BS5 Seeker Missiles to kill one Wraithknight, 44 BS5 Seeker Missiles with a 4+ Ruins Cover Save.

So, three SkyRays are not even a single turn counter to the Wraithknight, and that is under ideal circumstances, going first, ignoring cover, etc.

And now with Ranged D it can absolutely obliterate Riptides. Better than a 1/5 chance per turn to roll a 6 and you pick up your Riptide, not counting what the d3 wounds would do slipping through your 5++.


The new Eldar will devastate Tau, Tau most certainly are not a hard counter to them. Now, at NOVA where the Wraithknight(GC or SH LoW are not allowed) is disallowed Tau will fair better. But, nothing will stand up well to the Scatter Bikes. Nothing.

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Lol i Beat a DE objective grabbing army in a Maelstrom of war mission. By the 3rd turn they were running out of things to move and shoot with as everything the knights shot at died especially since I added 2 Star Cannons to each wraithknight (Gargantuan creatures can fire all their guns so now there is a point to those 2 shoulde rmounted guns)

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The new Eldar hit hard but they can't take a lot of hits. Although they have a ton of D Weapons, they need to get close to use them so if you out range them, a smart opponent will try to limit his mobility if he is going that route. Another list effective against the new Eldar is if you have a fast army. Eldar Jetbike are quick, however if you to field a fast army such as Drop Pods or in my case, Militarum Tempestus Taurox Prime list, they will struggle as you can reach him turn one. Have played the new Eldar 3x times already and so far have yet to lose a game, as I have been able to use fast movement to counter there speed and AP3 is awesome against Wraithguard.
   
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When you start laying down hundreds more points in "counters" for one model that's a bit more expensive than the Riptide there is something wrong. Especially when those units aren't killing it in one round.

The fact the Jetbikes alone kind of make a mockery of what Tau are all about is crazy by itself.

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 Ironwolf45 wrote:
The new Eldar hit hard but they can't take a lot of hits. Although they have a ton of D Weapons, they need to get close to use them so if you out range them, a smart opponent will try to limit his mobility if he is going that route. Another list effective against the new Eldar is if you have a fast army. Eldar Jetbike are quick, however if you to field a fast army such as Drop Pods or in my case, Militarum Tempestus Taurox Prime list, they will struggle as you can reach him turn one. Have played the new Eldar 3x times already and so far have yet to lose a game, as I have been able to use fast movement to counter there speed and AP3 is awesome against Wraithguard.


The wraithknight has a threat range of 48" with its D weapons... so if you consider 48" short range then I'd like to know what you are shooting with... Also I have yet to lose a game with the new Eldar. So the people must be taking sub-optimal lists or new to Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:36:38


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 Zagman wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
What changed on the WK again? (honest question)

GMC gives them the bonus of a 5+ FNP. they are still T8 3+ armor 6 wounds and gives up the D for that invul save. (right?)

Would take at least 3 near full volley Skyrays to deal with exactly one. two can get it pretty close.





Yep, 5+FNP means it gained +50% durability vs Tau. And it has Ranged D, and a host of other advantages all for a +23% increase in cost.

So, now we have to take off 9 effective wounds.

Without Cover it now takes 22 BS5 Seeker Missiles to kill one Wraithknight, 44 BS5 Seeker Missiles with a 4+ Ruins Cover Save.

So, three SkyRays are not even a single turn counter to the Wraithknight, and that is under ideal circumstances, going first, ignoring cover, etc.

And now with Ranged D it can absolutely obliterate Riptides. Better than a 1/5 chance per turn to roll a 6 and you pick up your Riptide, not counting what the d3 wounds would do slipping through your 5++.


The new Eldar will devastate Tau, Tau most certainly are not a hard counter to them. Now, at NOVA where the Wraithknight(GC or SH LoW are not allowed) is disallowed Tau will fair better. But, nothing will stand up well to the Scatter Bikes. Nothing.


Hang on did i do that wrong?

it would take 15 shots, t8 to st 8 50% 7.5 wounds, 5+ fnp leaving you with 6.5 wounsd no?

(or is GMC a 4+ FNP?)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
 Zagman wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
What changed on the WK again? (honest question)

GMC gives them the bonus of a 5+ FNP. they are still T8 3+ armor 6 wounds and gives up the D for that invul save. (right?)

Would take at least 3 near full volley Skyrays to deal with exactly one. two can get it pretty close.





Yep, 5+FNP means it gained +50% durability vs Tau. And it has Ranged D, and a host of other advantages all for a +23% increase in cost.

So, now we have to take off 9 effective wounds.

Without Cover it now takes 22 BS5 Seeker Missiles to kill one Wraithknight, 44 BS5 Seeker Missiles with a 4+ Ruins Cover Save.

So, three SkyRays are not even a single turn counter to the Wraithknight, and that is under ideal circumstances, going first, ignoring cover, etc.

And now with Ranged D it can absolutely obliterate Riptides. Better than a 1/5 chance per turn to roll a 6 and you pick up your Riptide, not counting what the d3 wounds would do slipping through your 5++.


The new Eldar will devastate Tau, Tau most certainly are not a hard counter to them. Now, at NOVA where the Wraithknight(GC or SH LoW are not allowed) is disallowed Tau will fair better. But, nothing will stand up well to the Scatter Bikes. Nothing.


Hang on did i do that wrong?

it would take 15 shots, t8 to st 8 50% 7.5 wounds, 5+ fnp leaving you with 6.5 wounsd no?

(or is GMC a 4+ FNP?)


Math is wrong. 18 Shots. 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 5 left unsaved. Assuming No cover Save. 2.5 wounds witha 4+ Ruins Cover Save. Which means you also needed another source of Markerlights. So, all three SkyRays blow their load Turn 1 and you don't kill one Wraith-knight, and you've turned your SkyRays into Markerlight Platforms.

We've now used 400+ Points, 300+ of which exhausts its one use abilities, and we haven't killed a 295pt model... We've also had to assume we go first. If we don't, we lose. Badly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:41:18


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Like i said best case scenario.

2 Skyrays are not out of the realm of possibility. nether is a Mark commander or a unit of pathfinders.

also i meant to say 15 hits not shots. my bad.

As well Skyrays being a marker platform that is effectively immune to incoming bike dakka. while allowing for the riptide to ignore there cover isnt too bad i feel.

without an actual list though this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo.

New Eldar is kinda rediculus for sure.

Edit: Though thinking about it would it be better to remove all there jet bike troops and ignore the wraith knight completely (since its only 2 single D shots most troops wont be effected as much though riptides will have issues)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 18:48:23


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Like i said best case scenario.

2 Skyrays are not out of the realm of possibility. nether is a Mark commander or a unit of pathfinders.

also i meant to say 15 hits not shots. my bad.

As well Skyrays being a marker platform that is effectively immune to incoming bike dakka. while allowing for the riptide to ignore there cover isnt too bad i feel.

without an actual list though this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo.

New Eldar is kinda rediculus for sure.

Edit: Though thinking about it would it be better to remove all there jet bike troops and ignore the wraith knight completely (since its only 2 single D shots most troops wont be effected as much though riptides will have issues)



Best case scenario is poor tactical thinking. As it stands, Tau have no effective counter for the Wraithknight. Your plan also didn't factor in that it could move to midfield and simply remove at least one unit per turn. Fires one or two D shots at one or two units, and fires either a scatter or D at another and charges it. There will be multiple turns where the Wraithknight removes two units per turns.

Concentrate on the Jetbikes? They will be in reserve, arrive on the table, and deal a decisive blow the turn they arrive, we can't field enough interceptor for it to matter, and if we fire IA at them, we don't ignore cover.

No matter what way you look at it, if the Eldar put a Wraithknight on the table, Tau cannot counter it outside of luck. That is the exact opposite to a hard counter.

At 240pts it was hard to ignore the Wraithknight, now its much harder to do.

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Wait so why is it strange that we are going to focus more than 400+ points to get a true best case scenario when basically the only thing on table would be a knight and bikes are in reserves?

im saying its relatively doable at range.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Wait so why is it strange that we are going to focus more than 400+ points to get a true best case scenario when basically the only thing on table would be a knight and bikes are in reserves?

im saying its relatively doable at range.



That is best case scenario, assuming only one Wraithknight. There could easily be 2 and it would be extremely improbably that Tau could kill them both in one game. 30 Scatter Bikes and a Wraithknight is only ~1100pts. That leaves a lot to account for and doesn't include all the other stuff that Eldar can pull out of that codex, which is with the exception of the Wave Serpent basically a straight buff across the board.

I was saying that with even one Wraithknight on the Table Tau have a massive uphill battle, which is the direct opposite of a hard counter. And it assumes Tau get first turn.

And best case scenarios are worthless when talking about effective counters for a unit. If this was 6th Edition Eldar and we are discussing the Wave Serpent, we have/had effective Counters for it. We had marginally effective Counters for the old Wraithknight, now with the changes we do not.

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Yeah i agree WK Is definitely incredibly hard to deal with. in fact for any army really.

And i dont think i was saying Tau would face roll them 100% of the time.

But some of other facets of that army tau should be ok in handling. especially bikes.




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Yeah i agree WK Is definitely incredibly hard to deal with. in fact for any army really.

And i dont think i was saying Tau would face roll them 100% of the time.

But some of other facets of that army tau should be ok in handling. especially bikes.





Do tell.

What does Tau field that can handle Scatter Bikes? Not Pathfinders, Not Crisis, Not Kroot, not Firewarriors, Not Drones, Not MarkOs, Not Iridium Commanders, Not Broadsides. The only thing that really stands up to them are Riptides and SkyRays, but we've already covered the fact that the Wraithknight hard counters the Riptides.

And that is just the Bikes. Eldar can put a lot more scary things on the table, their entire codex with the exception of Wave Serpents got blanket buffs. Not to mention what they can do with formatinos etc.


Edit: And I wasn't say Tau would lose 100% of the time, but I highly doubt that Tau will have a winning record against the new Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 20:04:05


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My current solution for the wraithknight involves a 25 unit MSU infiltrate + pods spam rush, no big point models, and letting it delete a unit a turn, with me trying to move the least valuable ones into its way.

If the eldar player is smart and spends the first turn turbo-ing away with the jetbikes from my attempt to imitate orks, I still lose though. But maybe I'll play against people who try to stay and gun down a few units? That would be nice.

My end conclusion after all my eldar studying is that: If the eldar player is at least as skilled as I am or more, I literally can't win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 20:24:59


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The only hard counter that I can think of to the Wraithknight comes from Space Marines and Grey Knights; Grav Centurion combo.

Against bikes? Probably the Sicarian Battle Tank due to being fast.
   
 
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