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So, when Wraithguard got Destroyer weapons, everyone jumped up and down and screamed bloody murder. Why is there no reaction to Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers?!

These guys are troops, and Torsion Cannons are WAY better than Wraithcannons. Sure, Wraithcannons are Destroyer weapons, but whoop-dee. Torsion Cannons are twice the range -- 24" range, S8AP1 and cause D3 wounds. Would you really take 12" range over that, just to get the chance to roll a 6 on the Destroyer table?

On top of that, each model can fire 2 weapons, and the Destroyer synergizes with itself. It has a 24" Phosphor Blaster that is Rapid Fire Luminagen (unsaved wounds cause -1 to cover save). Then the same unit gets to fire Heavy Grav Cannons -- 30" Salvo 4/6 Concussive Graviton! That's 12 Graviton rolls at 15" with move, or 18 30" Graviton rolls with no move.

Sure, these units cost more than Wraithguard (32 points), as they weigh in at 50 or 55 points a piece. But they also have 2 wounds, and they can fire 2 separate weapons per model. They have much greater range. They are also only BS3 -- but so are the Skitarii, and look how effective they are with their buffs. These guys get Canticles of the Omnisiah, which we don't know the effect of yet, but are likely to be pretty good (and have a decent chance of buffing Ballistic Skill).

Also, you can load these guys up on a 35 point drop pod! So, for 185 points you can pop a unit wherever you want on the table with a 24" threat range of destructo-goodness. That Wraithknight doesn't look so scary now, right?

What do you think? Am I nuts, or are these guys crazy good?

Skitarii are BS4 and the Kataphron can become BS4 and gain ignores cover through their formation.

Yes, they are far better, cheeiser and OP than Wraithguard but they're IoM so I doubt they'llget as much hate

SGTPozy wrote:
Skitarii are BS4 and the Kataphron can become BS4 and gain ignores cover through their formation.

Yes, they are far better, cheeiser and OP than Wraithguard but they're IoM so I doubt they'llget as much hate

They'll still get just as much hate from me. I hate IoM.

SGTPozy wrote:
Skitarii are BS4 and the Kataphron can become BS4 and gain ignores cover through their formation.

Yes, they are far better, cheeiser and OP than Wraithguard but they're IoM so I doubt they'llget as much hate

This, really, is my point Why the "ZOMG WRAITHGUARD D-CANNON I HATE GW END OF THE 40kPOCALYPSE" on Codex Craftworlds, yet nobody gets excited about a potentially WAY, WAY freaking more powerful unit? The cheese potential is astronomical with pods.

Put 1 destroyer unit and 1 breacher unit in drop pods, and you'll kill anything that isn't invisible. Or don't, because they have enough of a threat range that they're freaking scary on the ground. Or take turn it into an invisible Grav Deathstar. Or...

Can you link in? I would like to see their T, save, weapon options (I'm getting the impression from this that they get heavy grav cannons and Torsion cannons right? And can fire both?) And how they get a 15" move, before commenting on them.

@Poly Ranger --

Breachers are 50 points, and can have a Torsion Cannon or Heavy Arc Rifle. They also get an Arc Claw (haywire cc).

Destroyers are 55 points, and get 2 ranged weapons: Heavy Grav or Plasma Culverin + Phosphor Blaster or Cognis Flamer

S5 T5 W2 I3 Ld8. 3+ for Breachers 4+ for Destroyers.
Heavy Grav: 30" S*AP2 Salvo 4/6 Concussive, Graviton
Plasma Culverin: 24" Heavy 2 Blast Getshot
Torsion Cannon: 24" S8AP1 Gravitic Contortion
Heavy Arc: 36" S6AP5 Heavy 2 Haywire
Cognis Flamer: S4AP5 Template, Assault, Cognis Flamewall

Flamewall makes Overwatch Wall of Death always do 3 wounds.

They both have Canticles of the Omnisiah, which we don't know yet. And they both are 3-12 per squad.

Woah salvo on the Gravs is pretty savage 0_o

They have always had salvo I thought?

Talys I am reserving judgment until all the new codex are out in a few months. It seems that a new wave of super powerful stuff is coming out. Maybe if marine dreadnought start getting weapons like this I'll be able to use them again - that alone would get me really excited and I wouldn't complain about anything else being OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
They have always had salvo I thought?

Well the Heavy Grav is new - 30" and 6 shots....WOWZA

They have always had salvo I thought?

But not at 4/6? 2/3 wasnt it?

Thanks! What's the stats of the Phosphor blaster?

And yes - that seems stupidly OP for the destroyers! 25pts cheaper than a grav cent.

The Torsion cannon isn't too worrying for vehicles In comparison to some other threats. Melta and D are both far far more dangerous, as are rail guns, laser destroyers and anything with high st armourbane/primary weapon/ordnance. But it is insanely good against MCs If it causes d3 wounds.

Just realised I mis-read, it wasn't a 15" move, it was a 15" range with move you were talking about.

@Poly Ranger - Phosphor Blaster 24" S5 AP4 Rapid Fiire, Luminagen.

Having played against Luminagen I cannot overemphasize how useful this is as a "freebie" that AdMech get on so much stuff (that is otherwise great anyhow). Each time you suffer a wound you lose -1 to cover save for the turn. So you get hit a couple times with Luminagen on a W5-6 model, and you basically lose your Cover. Then you get hit with something else that will essentially kill you (like the Grav Cannons on the same model...).

@Ratius - Grav Cannons on Centurions are 3/5 and 24". Grav Guns (on bikes, etc) are 2/3 and 18". 4/6 and 30" -- that extra 6" is HUGE on a 6x4 table, because (a) you get to outrange all of the 24" weapons and (b) on a table with plentiful terrain, there are few lines that are much further than 30" anyways.

@Xenomancers - I don't disagree at all. I'm not even really complaining I'm just pointing out that there was all the Eldar outrage, yet seemingly no AdMech outrage.

Part of what makes these guys so great is that Drop Pods are an insanely good delivery system for them (just like they are for Skitarii haywire guys to take out a much pricier vehicle). The only way Eldar can get Wraithguard in place is to truck them there, or to get WWP, which is not easy or cheap. Certainly not spammable. Eldar Falcons' deep strike is terrible, since you have to take 3 massive models that all have to land within 4" of the first one, and it commits you to a huge DS force all in the same place. But with this kind of range, you don't even have to DS close.

Pjospor blaster is str4 ap 5 assault 2 24 inch range with minus 1 to cover.

Wraiths are cheaper.
Higher bs not that it matters with the flamers.
Wraiths can no scatter deep strike with dark eldar, drop pods scatter.
Most tournaments allow templates to target in is now, meaning they have a decent chance to one shot literally any non flying unit in the game.
Charging them is guaranteed suicide so you need a distraction unit to take the ko.
Wraiths have the option for transport inside their book sans allies.

Cantrices: 6 the plus varies for the one use buffs depending on the number of cult mechanics units left in your army ( note allies don't contribute to this)
Plus 3 bs for 8 plus units left. Plus2 for 7 to 4. Plus one for 3 to 1. These numbers stay the same across the numbered buffs.
Next is plus WS
Next is plus to cover saves that turn.
Then one for plus to str in meelee
Then plus to run move.
Last one let's you reroll misses in combat that turn.

Wow, those are neat buffs on the Canticles.

WHY did GW have to make the marshmallow man robot :\ I wonder if it's physically the same size as Thanatar Siege automata. It's my only resistance towards building a Cult force lol. I just can't do it.

Keep in mind what makes the grav centurion so powerful is actually a mixture of; drop pods/gate of infinity DSing to get in range and give the cents the alpha strike, reroll wounds from the grav amp, and slow and purposeful always letting them fire the best profile for the grav cannons.

All grav weapons except the pistol are salvo BTW and grav cannons are salvo 24" range Salvo 3/5, which on the slow and purposeful model they come on is usually going to be better than the heavy grav cannons.

The formation has some really nasty benefits but also locks you into a huge amount of pts worth of models. Very good but extremely limiting, kind of like the offensive focused version of admantium lance.

The torsion weapons are a really interesting weapon. They are not as good as Str D weapons but the extra range may make up for this. Specifically Str 8 is vastly worse against AV10+ and T7+. Though I do agree that peoples reaction to the D weapon wraithguard, scatbikes, and the entire CWE codex was WAY out of proportion. There was literally a shunning, predictions of the end of the 40K world, and rhetoric reserved for mob lynchings and witch trials being used.

These new units are another very interesting unit from GW who seem to be dead set in the last 3 releases to make troops more than bodies to stand on objectives and a tax to take the good units.

PS most of what makes wraithguard with full D weapons overpowering is actually the DE allies. Putting these units in a raider and/or with a webway portal gives a guaranteed unit deletion unit that you don't even get to shoot at most games before they kill whatever the CWE wants dead. Admittedly these are effectively the same against anything T7 and less but against AV10+ and T7+ this is vastly different. Think about the difference between these two units shooting an imperial knight, wraithknight, barbed heirodule, etc. People don't like to pick up a 300-400 pts model with no recourse.

A few thoughts:
1. They are more expensive. The biggest complaint with wraithguard wasn't so much the d-weapons, as much as it was the cost
2. THEY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN WRAITHGUARD
3. I'm glad Eldar players get a taste of the panic

Now some actual thoughts:
1. The guys with a 3+ save are still BS3, and T5. They get the D3 wounds/hullpoints gun, but you can only fit 3 in a drop pod since they are Very Bulky. In order to have a drop pod of them come in, you have to take a detachment which isn't all that cheap, and extra pods if you want them to come in when you want, aka 2 pods of these guys need 3 pods for a turn 1 drop. That detachment isn't cheap, and still scatters.
2. The shooty guys are T5 with a 4+ save. AP4 will murder them. And unlike wraiths, you can take a reliable counter for fewer points than the unit you're countering.
3. You have to wound/Pen/glance to get the D3, it's not automatic. So against AV12 you need a 4+, AV13 a 5+, and 6+ vs AV14. Against a wraithknight you'll need a 4+ to wound...with D-weapons you only need a 2+ (or a 3+ if you're using scythes).
4. There isn't also a 27 point unit in the codex that moves 12 in and shoots 36in with 4 S6 shots.

Yeah it's powerful, but not quite as powerful as the new Eldar.

What is the unit carrying this Heavy Grav - is it those robot things? I hope I don't have to go buy some now...cause I'm trying to save a down payment for a WRX.....

 Talys wrote:
Thanatar Siege automata.

It's smaller than a Castellax, actually.

 Talys wrote:
So, when Wraithguard got Destroyer weapons, everyone jumped up and down and screamed bloody murder. Why is there no reaction to Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers?!

These guys are troops, and Torsion Cannons are WAY better than Wraithcannons. Sure, Wraithcannons are Destroyer weapons, but whoop-dee. Torsion Cannons are twice the range -- 24" range, S8AP1 and cause D3 wounds. Would you really take 12" range over that, just to get the chance to roll a 6 on the Destroyer table?

So, thy have a longer range, ok. However, they don't wound *everything* on a 2+ (only T6 and lower), and aren't auto-penetrating vehicles on a 2+ either. In these regards, they're significantly less powerful.

On top of that, yes, those 6's really do matter, all you need is one to auto-delete a superheavy, MC, GC or character regardless of any saves or remaining wounds. And when you're firing multiple shots, they do happen. That is a huge boost.

Also, it does not appear that the Kataphrons have a dedicated transport, much less the option for a Fast Skimmer dedicated transport, meaning they get to ground pound to wherever they need to be (and can't Run). They also don't appear to be Fearless, but rather Ld8 (same as basic putz Guardsmen Infantry Squads). It's possible they may have something to mitigate the Ld, but I don't think I've seen it so far.

On top of that, each model can fire 2 weapons, and the Destroyer synergizes with itself. It has a 24" Phosphor Blaster that is Rapid Fire Luminagen (unsaved wounds cause -1 to cover save). Then the same unit gets to fire Heavy Grav Cannons -- 30" Salvo 4/6 Concussive Graviton! That's 12 Graviton rolls at 15" with move, or 18 30" Graviton rolls with no move.

Yup, pretty insane, I'd agree with that. I don't know that I'd call it worse than D weapons however, because they've also got some difference in effectiveness against different targets. For instance, the Graviton weapons are far less effective against Superheavy vehicles (as superheavies ignore Immobilized results) and only glance on a 6, while units with strong Invul saves like Necron Wraiths or 3++ shielded Riptides will be much more vulnerable to the D weapons.

Sure, these units cost more than Wraithguard (32 points), as they weigh in at 50 or 55 points a piece. But they also have 2 wounds, and they can fire 2 separate weapons per model. They have much greater range. They are also only BS3 -- but so are the Skitarii, and look how effective they are with their buffs. These guys get Canticles of the Omnisiah, which we don't know the effect of yet, but are likely to be pretty good (and have a decent chance of buffing Ballistic Skill).

Skitarii are BS4 base. That said, I haven't seen exactly what the Canticles of the Omnissiah do, so I can't comment there.

These guys are certain to be very good, but having to footslog it, they're much more likely to be killed before engaging their preferred targets, particularly the 4+sv guys.

Also, you can load these guys up on a 35 point drop pod! So, for 185 points you can pop a unit wherever you want on the table with a 24" threat range of destructo-goodness. That Wraithknight doesn't look so scary now, right?

They're likely to be one-shot wonders when used in this manner, coming in and being immediately removed or tarpitted (which admittedly may be worth it) but won't have the resiliency or mobility of a Wraithknight. It's also an unintended consequence of poorly thought out rules that would allow such a thing, as opposed to an inherent quality of the unit and army, much like Webway portal Wraithguard.

What do you think? Am I nuts, or are these guys crazy good?

They are crazy good, they just don't have quite the same ability to just delete hard targets.

More critically, the rest of the army they're attached to also isn't anything near as insanely good as the rest of the Eldar codex.

 greyknight12 wrote:
A few thoughts:
1. They are more expensive. The biggest complaint with wraithguard wasn't so much the d-weapons, as much as it was the cost
2. THEY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN WRAITHGUARD
3. I'm glad Eldar players get a taste of the panic

Now some actual thoughts:
1. The guys with a 3+ save are still BS3, and T5. They get the D3 wounds/hullpoints gun, but you can only fit 3 in a drop pod since they are Very Bulky. In order to have a drop pod of them come in, you have to take a detachment which isn't all that cheap, and extra pods if you want them to come in when you want, aka 2 pods of these guys need 3 pods for a turn 1 drop. That detachment isn't cheap, and still scatters.
2. The shooty guys are T5 with a 4+ save. AP4 will murder them. And unlike wraiths, you can take a reliable counter for fewer points than the unit you're countering.
3. You have to wound/Pen/glance to get the D3, it's not automatic. So against AV12 you need a 4+, AV13 a 5+, and 6+ vs AV14. Against a wraithknight you'll need a 4+ to wound...with D-weapons you only need a 2+ (or a 3+ if you're using scythes).
4. There isn't also a 27 point unit in the codex that moves 12 in and shoots 36in with 4 S6 shots.

Yeah it's powerful, but not quite as powerful as the new Eldar.

So, wait, these things are only T5?

No one's complainijg about these guys because no one gives a gak about the Mechanicum faction. As far as notoriety they're still relatively unknown army and a lot of people haven't played against them yet- in fact with GW's crap marketing skills it's likely alot of people don't even know they exist.

Let them sweep a few tournaments, like Eldar have been doing for years, then they'll get more publicity.

looking pretty badass too



I still think they should all be in one big AdMech codex instead of multiple ones.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No one's complainijg about these guys because no one gives a gak about the Mechanicum faction. As far as notoriety they're still relatively unknown army and a lot of people haven't played against them yet- in fact with GW's crap marketing skills it's likely alot of people don't even know they exist.

Let them sweep a few tournaments, like Eldar have been doing for years, then they'll get more publicity.

I think the bigger issue with the AdMech stuff is that they're effectively releasing one faction in drips and drabs as separate entities, each effectively being only like a third of a real army, and often lacking certain capabilities even when taken as a whole (e.g. transports of any kind), and to use them effectively at all they *must* be used in conjunction with other armies. The Skitarii that seem to have placed well in a couple events of late did so through use of allies and abusive of BB rules by buying drop pods for tons of geared up Skitarii that otherwise wouldn't have had access to them.

Meanwhile, Eldar can be absolutely ridiculous within their own codex without being broken up over multiple books or having to ally with other factions, and aren't lacking things like transports.

@Sir Arun - Yeah, they look pretty awesome And I agree. They should have charged $70 for 1 big book, ffs.

@BlaxicanX - I guess We'll see, I suppose. I haven't really been negatively affected to any great degree playing against new Eldar without modified rules. Yeah, they're a little tougher, for sure, but I'm don't face ultraspammy lists as that just isn't our thing.

@Vaktathi - Indeed, they are a bazillion times more effective with an ally... but what's the big deal about that? Especially when it's all Imperium. There is effectively no tax (since there are fantastic troops), and there is a Blood Angels detachment (Flesh Tearer's Strike Force) that is a perfect taxi setup. It also effectively has no tax (1 HQ + 1 troop from BA; and that gives you 6 pods at 35 pts each), because there is good stuff you can take.

If the threshold for acceptable cheesiness is that 1 book cheese is unacceptable, but 2 books is fine... well, that's a bit of a head srcatcher for me

Keep in mind, I don't think either wraithguard or kataphron (or Skitarii or scatter bikes) are game-breaking. I've never really worried about Wraithguard anyways, because they have crappy range and it costs Eldar so much to move them around. I think that Kataphron are an awesome value unit that doesn't consume any Elite/Heavy slots and do more damage at a sweet spot for range. Unlike Tactical marines, you don't have to take 9 other space marines to get the 1 guy with the heavy weapon; you can just take 3 guys with heavy weapons, and they can shoot far enough and roll enough dice to be a real threat.

Sans transport or support for either side I would rather have Kataphron over Wraithguard because of the range; with transport, I think it's a no-brainer.

Game balance? Never heard of it.

What are these??

What major tournament have the eldar been "sweeping"?

They barely place top 5 most of the time, as far as I can recall...

Ps. I just love my BA! I've always wanted to field an army of drop pods.

 Talys wrote:
...Then the same unit gets to fire Heavy Grav Cannons -- 30" Salvo 4/6 Concussive Graviton! That's 12 Graviton rolls at 15" with move, or 18 30" Graviton rolls with no move.

I believe that they've got a special rule, "Heavy Battle Servitor" that is basically relentless but can't run (or S'nP, but may overwatch and sweep) so they're always firing 6 shots. Technically they can charge after firing as well, but I can't imagine it will be often that you'll be doing that.

 Drasius wrote:

 Talys wrote:
...Then the same unit gets to fire Heavy Grav Cannons -- 30" Salvo 4/6 Concussive Graviton! That's 12 Graviton rolls at 15" with move, or 18 30" Graviton rolls with no move.

I believe that they've got a special rule, "Heavy Battle Servitor" that is basically relentless but can't run (or S'nP, but may overwatch and sweep) so they're always firing 6 shots. Technically they can charge after firing as well, but I can't imagine it will be often that you'll be doing that.

Heavy Battle Servitors: Models with this special rule cannot make Run moves but can fire up to two weapons in each Shooting phase. Furthermore, models with this special rule count as stationary when firing Heavy or Salvo weapons, even if they moved int he previous Movement phase, and are allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Rapid Fire, Heavy, or Salvo weapons.

So a Destroyer may Rapid Fire the Phosphor Blaster at 12", or single fire at 24". Then, the Destroyer may fire its Salvo Heavy Grav Cannon at 30" for 4 shots, or 6 shots at 15". That's better than Relentless

By the way, the Breacher has a very good CC weapon. They can either have S6AP5 Haywire (free), or for 10 points, they can have a S10 AP2. It's not super-duper-awesome, but the free Haywire attack is pretty good against a vehicle.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
What major tournament have the eldar been "sweeping"?

They barely place top 5 most of the time, as far as I can recall...

I guess you haven't been paying much attention over the years.