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Well.. on the other hand...

...

...

You can and must deep strike Land Raiders now?

Everything must have Deathwing or be a dedicated Transport (Land Raiders, which will get Deathwing rule by being a Deathwing Vehicle).
Every unit must start in DS Reserve.
Ergo...

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.

Okay, I'm hearing a lot of how Ravenwing will be largely immune to shooting. This isn't Invisibility they're getting. They're getting a cover save. It's a re-rollable cover save, but it's a cover save nonetheless. And because cover saves have already gotten so common, more and more armies are already loaded for bear with 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons.

Will it be good? Yes. I believe it will be effective. But I think only because people won't be able to pack enough 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons. But I think there will be some armies (Tau) that just won't care.

Ignores Cover is quite difficult to get. Imperial armies usually can only get it by having either Perfect Timing or Imperial Guard Senior Officers, or Wyverns and Thundercannons and Whirlwinds, all of which don't do AP3. Once the sources of Ignores Cover go down, the RW quickly become unmanageable, especially if the entire force has it by default. Ditto for Tau and other races. Skyhammer now provides a reliable turn 1 way of engaging the sources of Ignores Cover.

Not to mention it's inbuilt unlike Fortune so it can't be denied. An entire army of re-rollable 2+ saves isn't hugely difficult to accomplish either.

tydrace wrote:Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?

That's a shame.

changemod wrote:Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.

Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.

Looks like normal marines out "Librarian Conclaved" us... DW seems quite lack lustre to say the least. Guess I will have to go with normal marines to get ObSec bikes.

 Paradigm wrote:
Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.

The most frustrating part, I only started this army of solo-Deathwing two months ago.

Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

DS LR seem to be back

If they take DS Raiders away from BA only to give them to DA, there shall be much gnashing of teeth!

In all honesty, though, I'm not sure teleporting LR is actually the intent, and this is just a typical GW oversight, given that BA were stripped of the same.

Crazy, I did not expect them to actually put alternative detachments instead of alternative core in the codex for the Ravenwing & Deathwing. A little sad that our conclave requires Ezekiel and that we didn't get the conclave as a standard command choice for the Decurion. Ravenwing look solid and deathwing look like deathwing have always looked liked except for a brief shining moment in the sun but overall at least it seems like a book that can compete.

Has anyone else got that sinking feeling?
The Ravenwing Attack Squad being 10 members, 6 on bike, 2 on attack bike, 2 on speeder was one of the coolest things about the last book. These formations give me the impression that it's now impossible to build that same unit.

Nevermind. The bike squad can still add an attack bike - see pictures below.

There's actually a benefit to Deep Striking a Land Raider?

Pointcosts will follow later...

Nope, still possible.
You "just" need 2 Auxilary for that.
1 - RWAS, 6 bikes, Land Speeder
1 - RWAS, 2 Attack Bikes, Land Speeder

All there.

Looks like we have a complete leak now.
Gonna be a busy evening updating the BS file...

No option for ew like every other book gets.

changemod wrote:
There's actually a benefit to Deep Striking a Land Raider?

Other than the fact that it's literally the most fething awesome thing you can ever do in a game of 40k? Aside from getting closer/hiding from a turn off shooting then probably not, but who cares?*

*note that all this applied to the Blood Angels version where you just drop them off the back of a Thunderhawk. Teleporting is approximately 37% less awesome.

 Thairne wrote:
Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.

(but my german is very rusty)

 Paradigm wrote:

tydrace wrote:Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?

That's a shame.

changemod wrote:Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.

Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.

Do some of the units still have Deathwing Assault rule? That would allow you to play purely DW by deep-striking on turn 1.

By the sound of it, Deathwing Assault is gone, replaced by Detachment/Formation bonuses that do the same thing, but not on T1.

There is still potential for a great 1-2 punch with DeathRaven lists, but for pure-DW lists it might be game over.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.

(but my german is very rusty)

Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.

Just the one new model? I thought GW were a model company not a rules one?

 Thairne wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.

(but my german is very rusty)

Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

Scouts can buy Hellfire Rounds for Sniper Rifles?!

 Thairne wrote:
Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

about fething time lol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!

I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.

(but my german is very rusty)

Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

Scouts can buy Hellfire Rounds for Sniper Rifles?!

Nope, only for the one heavy bolter. Looks like 5 pts, hard to tell.

I was about to say, if Hellfire Rounds got enabled for Sniper Rifles...

My Sniper Rifle Scouts would have just become a hell of a lot scarier.

 Formosa wrote:
No option for ew like every other book gets.

You mean "like only Space Marines get"?

Also, if you have an IC attached to DWKs they benefit from the Shield Wall rule too

The way I read it, only if they have a Stormshield too.

 Thairne wrote:
The way I read it, only if they have a Stormshield too.

why wouldn't they?

I'm kind of worried but I was wanting to do DeathRaven anyway.
My main remaining worries are adapting to these dippy formations instead of FOC moving and where I'll put some of my units (Vindicator, Librarian, Tactical Squad and Assault Squad), though perhaps also some HQ concerns.