Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

Unbound isn't always an option. Not every group allows for it.

The house rules you play with are your concern, not the game's.

It is a concern when you can be locked out of your army but that could be stopped by a simple modification ... That was already there!

And why even take away the "X as Troops" stuff anyway? What harm is done by keeping it in?

Anyone else noticed that hardly anyone has any armour! Only guys with terminator armour have it in their wargear list! Does this override the 2+/3+ in their profile? Is Azrael walking around with nothing but a 4++? Seriously GW!? Proof reading is a thing! They did this last time with bolt pistols on some characters and it was FAQed, but with the recent lack of FAQs I'm concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical marines are now easier to kill than orks!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Those are part of the concern. If there was an option that allowed for Deathwing to be taken as troops in a CAD then pure Deathwing build would be possible (CAD and DWSF). But there isn't so Deathwing players are stuck with other stuff.

The rules allow for a pure Deathwing build. The complaint is that they can't take the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they don't want in order to get the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they do want.

Yeah, that seems to be the issue, everything's really half-baked by the looks of things. Can only hope there's some sort of fix for all this stuff.

Just looked at the 1d4chan page for Dark Angels tactics and they seem pretty happy about all the new stuff but I'm having a hard time being enthused when it apparently doesn't even work.

^They don't allow for a pure DW build because you'll immediately lose from a terminal case of "nobody showed up", pretty big problem that wouldn't exist if they didn't screw around with this new formation stuff.

@Kavish: They still have an armour save on their profile, so they still have an armour save.

Orks have had a 6+ save, but no armour in their wargear for a while now.

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Those are part of the concern. If there was an option that allowed for Deathwing to be taken as troops in a CAD then pure Deathwing build would be possible (CAD and DWSF). But there isn't so Deathwing players are stuck with other stuff.

The rules allow for a pure Deathwing build. The complaint is that they can't take the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they don't want in order to get the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they do want.

Except a pure Deathwing army using the DWSF (so just Terminators) must start in reserve and so loses on turn one unless you take some stuff not included in the DWSF.

So no, the rules don't allow for a pure Deathwing build which can actually play a game.

so right now I see 2 RW negatives.

RWSF cant take Libbys on bikes (or any other HQ for that matter)

RWSF cant take Flyers due to the reserve rule.

That's kind of Bad/Wierd

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Kavish: They still have an armour save on their profile, so they still have an armour save.

Orks have had a 6+ save, but no armour in their wargear for a while now.

*looks at ork codex* Aah! True that! Whew! At least they remembered to list terminator armour (which confers other rules). It is odd however that armour was listed for vanilla marines but not for DA. Where is the consistency?!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Those are part of the concern. If there was an option that allowed for Deathwing to be taken as troops in a CAD then pure Deathwing build would be possible (CAD and DWSF). But there isn't so Deathwing players are stuck with other stuff.

The rules allow for a pure Deathwing build. The complaint is that they can't take the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they don't want in order to get the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they do want.

Except a pure Deathwing army using the DWSF (so just Terminators) must start in reserve and so loses on turn one unless you take some stuff not included in the DWSF.

So no, the rules don't allow for a pure Deathwing build which can actually play a game.

Then you're wanting a 'pure' Deathwing army that's anything but 'pure' and works differently than the designers intended. Where do you get the idea that Vindicators are a part of the Deathwing? They're not. The player is still upset just because he has to take stuff he doesn't want so he can get what he wants.

zedsdead wrote:
so right now I see 2 RW negatives.

RWSF cant take Libbys on bikes (or any other HQ for that matter)

RWSF cant take Flyers due to the reserve rule.

That's kind of Bad/Wierd

I'd say they can take flyers, they're simply deployed "as normal" which means "in reserves" when you choose to deploy all Ravenwing units "as normal". The rule appears to simply be an option for when you WANT the entire Ravenwing in reserves you can do so, and the bring them onto the field all at once in turn 2. So it's an option, not a restriction. The only restriction is that if you want to use that option, you have to place the entire Ravenwing in reserves, not just units you choose.

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Those are part of the concern. If there was an option that allowed for Deathwing to be taken as troops in a CAD then pure Deathwing build would be possible (CAD and DWSF). But there isn't so Deathwing players are stuck with other stuff.

The rules allow for a pure Deathwing build. The complaint is that they can't take the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they don't want in order to get the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they do want.

Except a pure Deathwing army using the DWSF (so just Terminators) must start in reserve and so loses on turn one unless you take some stuff not included in the DWSF.

So no, the rules don't allow for a pure Deathwing build which can actually play a game.

Then you're wanting a 'pure' Deathwing army that's anything but 'pure' and works differently than the designers intended. Where do you get the idea that Vindicators are a part of the Deathwing? They're not. The player is still upset just because he has to take stuff he doesn't want so he can get what he wants.

Where did I mention a Vindicator? I said purely Terminators.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Those are part of the concern. If there was an option that allowed for Deathwing to be taken as troops in a CAD then pure Deathwing build would be possible (CAD and DWSF). But there isn't so Deathwing players are stuck with other stuff.

The rules allow for a pure Deathwing build. The complaint is that they can't take the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they don't want in order to get the 'other non-Deathwing stuff' that they do want.

Except a pure Deathwing army using the DWSF (so just Terminators) must start in reserve and so loses on turn one unless you take some stuff not included in the DWSF.

So no, the rules don't allow for a pure Deathwing build which can actually play a game.

Then you're wanting a 'pure' Deathwing army that's anything but 'pure' and works differently than the designers intended. Where do you get the idea that Vindicators are a part of the Deathwing? They're not. The player is still upset just because he has to take stuff he doesn't want so he can get what he wants.

Where did I mention a Vindicator? I said purely Terminators.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1080/649628.page#7926520

 Ghaz wrote:

Where did I mention a Vindicator? I said purely Terminators.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1080/649628.page#7926520

That wasn't me. I pointed out that a pure Deathwing army, that is only Terminators, is not possible with the new book as Deathwing detachments must start in reserve and so a pure Deathwing army of terminators will automatically lose on turn one.

If you would care to respond to that point rather than a different one...?

nekooni wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
so right now I see 2 RW negatives.

RWSF cant take Libbys on bikes (or any other HQ for that matter)

RWSF cant take Flyers due to the reserve rule.

That's kind of Bad/Wierd

I'd say they can take flyers, they're simply deployed "as normal" which means "in reserves" when you choose to deploy all Ravenwing units "as normal". The rule appears to simply be an option for when you WANT the entire Ravenwing in reserves you can do so, and the bring them onto the field all at once in turn 2. So it's an option, not a restriction. The only restriction is that if you want to use that option, you have to place the entire Ravenwing in reserves, not just units you choose.

Actually no... reserves isn't deployment so it appears to be all or none. its dumb I know, but following the rules of reserves its not a deployment. So theres no allowance for partial reserving even though flyers must do it.

And a 'pure' Deathwing army doesn't really fit the background. Its the Ravenwing that find the quarry for the Deathwing. The option doesn't exist because too many people would abuse it trying to make 'Deathwing' Vindicators. Take the Ravenwing Attack Squadron Formation and you'll have a legal Battle Forged army and one that fits the background as well.

GW has an option for you to play an all-Deathwing without auto-losing turn one because of everything is in reserves.

It's called Unbound.

If your group doesn't allow Unbound... sucks for you but GW doesn't abide by your house rules.

Apparently you can get some of the Deathwing Dreadnoughts to arrive Turn 1, true?

If so maybe pure DW might be salvageable.

zedsdead wrote:

nekooni wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
so right now I see 2 RW negatives.

RWSF cant take Libbys on bikes (or any other HQ for that matter)

RWSF cant take Flyers due to the reserve rule.

That's kind of Bad/Wierd

I'd say they can take flyers, they're simply deployed "as normal" which means "in reserves" when you choose to deploy all Ravenwing units "as normal". The rule appears to simply be an option for when you WANT the entire Ravenwing in reserves you can do so, and the bring them onto the field all at once in turn 2. So it's an option, not a restriction. The only restriction is that if you want to use that option, you have to place the entire Ravenwing in reserves, not just units you choose.

Actually no... reserves isn't deployment so it appears to be all or none. its dumb I know, but following the rules of reserves its not a deployment. So theres no allowance for partial reserving even though flyers must do it.

Reserves IS deployment, you decide on what's in reserves DURING deployment, ergo, flyers are deployed as normal. Normal deployment = starting in reserves.

no.. read page #135 under preparing reserves. Reserves is "NOT" deploying

zedsdead wrote:
no.. read page #135 under preparing reserves. Reserves is "NOT" deploying

But its done during deployment.

This is equivalent to space marines cant take vehicles, except even worse word/definition twisting.

Most important thing about the new codex for me: Librarian upgrade got a little cheaper.

Most standout thing in the codex: rerolling jink saves for ALL ravenwing (including Sammael). This is absolutely stupid and I think all DA powerbuilds will center around this rule.

PS Deathwing RIP.

PSS Demi Company gets obsec

 Kavish wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Kavish: They still have an armour save on their profile, so they still have an armour save.

Orks have had a 6+ save, but no armour in their wargear for a while now.

*looks at ork codex* Aah! True that! Whew! At least they remembered to list terminator armour (which confers other rules). It is odd however that armour was listed for vanilla marines but not for DA. Where is the consistency?!

Consistency is there. Power Armor is not listed in the SM codex, just the 3+ in the statline. Nor is Carapace armor for scouts. Just Artificer and TDA are listed in the armory, as both are upgrade options, and TDA has special rules.

Hmmm... i am usually a lurker on forums and rarely speak up. I agree and am concerned about the deathwing reserves requirement.

It would be nice to start them in land raiders or on the field on turn one at least. I will wait until I get my book in hand before I make any rash or emotional decisions.

I have been playing DA since 2nd/3rd and am sad to see the Ravenwing and deathwing troops thing go away. This is not just a rule change, it is completely changing who the dark angels have been for the past 20 years!

I understand others concerns about objective secured and unbound. Many folks will not play against unbound lists, even if one builds a 6th edition style force that is not cheese oriented. Ihave no problem with folks voicing their opinions here as this is what a forum and discussion are for (differing opinions and suggestions/complaints). It makes sense that folks are finding negatives.... that always follows excitement (remember all the positivity that this was the best book ever?).

My real concern that mods should get involved with are characters like Requizen. Insulting others (all the "get over youself comments") is juvanile and uncalled for here. The poster has been acting as his opinion is law here and all others are moot. All I have seen are people posting their concerns and complaints in respectfull manners, many of which have posted very positive things after rumors first surfaced.

Mods?

 raiden wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
no.. read page #135 under preparing reserves. Reserves is "NOT" deploying

But its done during deployment.

This is equivalent to space marines cant take vehicles, except even worse word/definition twisting.

I get what your saying.. and in all honesty im being devils advocate here but read the rule for :"Strike as one" it says they either Reserve or deploy as normal. Under the deployment rules in the BRB pg 132. under deployment either you "Deploy" or go in "reserves". The SaO rule says "ALL" either reserve or deploy... theres no allowences for flyers that I can see.

From Mexican Ork on FB:
http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

 raiden wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
no.. read page #135 under preparing reserves. Reserves is "NOT" deploying

But its done during deployment.

This is equivalent to space marines cant take vehicles, except even worse word/definition twisting.

Running is done during the shooting phase but that doesn't make it a shooting attack.

zedsdead wrote:

nekooni wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
so right now I see 2 RW negatives.

RWSF cant take Libbys on bikes (or any other HQ for that matter)

RWSF cant take Flyers due to the reserve rule.

That's kind of Bad/Wierd

I'd say they can take flyers, they're simply deployed "as normal" which means "in reserves" when you choose to deploy all Ravenwing units "as normal". The rule appears to simply be an option for when you WANT the entire Ravenwing in reserves you can do so, and the bring them onto the field all at once in turn 2. So it's an option, not a restriction. The only restriction is that if you want to use that option, you have to place the entire Ravenwing in reserves, not just units you choose.

Actually no... reserves isn't deployment so it appears to be all or none. its dumb I know, but following the rules of reserves its not a deployment. So theres no allowance for partial reserving even though flyers must do it.

Reserves
...
Preparing reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as reserves...

From BRB.

 455_PWR wrote:

I have been playing DA since 2nd/3rd and am sad to see the Ravenwing and deathwing troops thing go away. This is not just a rule change, it is completely changing who the dark angels have been for the past 20 years!

20 years?! You have no right to expect that thngs won't change! Toe the line or GTFO! Deathwing aren't meant to be played the way you've been playing them! Formations are the wave of the future, you neo-luddite. Now give GW your $58! I know you only used to pay $15, but this book is hardback and has pictures of models! Actual pictures of real models! And we pay our editors princely sums to make sure that characters on bikes are never allowed anywhere near our precious Ravenwing! Working as intended.

My real concern that mods should get involved with are characters like Requizen. Insulting others (all the "get over youself comments") is juvanile and uncalled for here. The poster has been acting as his opinion is law here and all others are moot. All I have seen are people posting their concerns and complaints in respectfull manners, many of which have posted very positive things after rumors first surfaced.

Mods?

I don't think anyone has stepped over any lines yet, but as always, if you have concerns, hit the little yellow triangle in the top right corner of the offending post and a mod will review the thread.

nekooni wrote:

Reserves
...
Preparing reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as reserves...

From BRB.

That does clearly say that keeping a model in reserves is not deploying it.

 455_PWR wrote:
Hmmm... i am usually a lurker on forums and rarely speak up. I agree and am concerned about the deathwing reserves requirement.

It would be nice to start them in land raiders or on the field on turn one at least. I will wait until I get my book in hand before I make any rash or emotional decisions.

I have been playing DA since 2nd/3rd and am sad to see the Ravenwing and deathwing troops thing go away. This is not just a rule change, it is completely changing who the dark angels have been for the past 20 years!

I understand others concerns about objective secured and unbound. Many folks will not play against unbound lists, even if one builds a 6th edition style force that is not cheese oriented. Ihave no problem with folks voicing their opinions here as this is what a forum and discussion are for (differing opinions and suggestions/complaints). It makes sense that folks are finding negatives.... that always follows excitement (remember all the positivity that this was the best book ever?).

My real concern that mods should get involved with are characters like Requizen. Insulting others (all the "get over youself comments") is juvanile and uncalled for here. The poster has been acting as his opinion is law here and all others are moot. All I have seen are people posting their concerns and complaints in respectfull manners, many of which have posted very positive things after rumors first surfaced.

Mods?

If I come across as insulting, it's only because people are acting stubborn and childish.

I am not posting my opinion. Unbound is in the rules. Formations are in the rules. Multiple Detachments are in the rules. People who say they are stupid and not "a true part of the game" are trying to make their opinion fact by crying about it. Anyone with models at the moment can continue to use exactly what they have, and if they don't like it, then that's on them and not the game itself.

No one is saying you have to love GW and their decisions. I'm saying that repeatedly bemoaning your fate as if the sky is falling and DA might as well be dead isn't helping anything, and the people who act as such should get past it and just play the game.