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 DarknessEternal wrote:

Yes, and Stealth too.

Only one model in a unit needs either rule to provide the whole unit with it.

And thus they confer it back to the Darkshroud, so they all enjoy a delicious 4+ cover save in open field?

 tydrace wrote:
Well I was in the train going home expecting to discuss the Scout thingy further but it seems we've already reached a conclusion to that.

 Ghaz wrote:

Unless it has a Formation datasheet, its not a Formation and just a unit.

Either way, next thing I thought about.

Ravenwing Land Speeder only army. Could be fun, aye? Highly doable with Sammael, Land Speeder, Land Speeder Vengeance and Darkshrouds.

Do the Land Speeders in a Ravenwing Support Force gain the Shrouded from the Darkshroud as well? That would be great.

Could be highly amusing when the enemy declares a charge and he gets overwatched by 1850 points of Land Speeders.

Does Strafing Run apply to Overwatch?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

Do the Land Speeders in a Ravenwing Support Force gain the Shrouded from the Darkshroud as well? That would be great.

Yes, and Stealth too.

Only one model in a unit needs either rule to provide the whole unit with it.

Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?

JuniorRS13 wrote:If you wanted scouts though, you could take a CAD along with the formations you want.

...As long as you have an HQ.
On plus side if you do and can make this bonus CAD you'll have the option to stick in a bunch of extra stuff too! Like 0-4 Tactical Marines (depending on how many Scouts are desired), Company Veterans, Tanks of all flavors, Assault Marines, Devastators... Potentially even additional Bikes/Termies!

Requizen wrote:I still like Multiple Formation Detachment. MFD is pretty unique as far as namings are concerned.

Yeah, that's a really good name for it, hope it catches on.

jakejackjake wrote:How is it cheating?


It's not. Especially if you use it to make an army that sucks. Like Deathwing has for years.

Also if you reject playing an army because it is unbound your a little baby. I've never played unbound myself because it hasn't been necessary, but it's allowed and anyone who calls it cheating is a cry baby who gets upset when someone outplays them.

Don't get mad at GW for trying to make you stop playing bad units and then complaining that they are bad

"OH NO I HAVE TO MAKE A NEW LIST WITH NON TERMINATORS" You're playing 40k. No one has "built" an army. They are all"building" armies. They just got confused and thought at some point it would be "complete", but it never will

Deathwing redemption force. Then bring other formatins. If you want ever edition to play like the last then why update them at all? People are just whining because they didn't get the changes EXACTLY how they wanted them. Even though this codex is in the top three now if the leaks hold 100

It's cheating in their eyes because it's Unbound, when people have issues with Unbound as most (i.e. almost everyone) seem to then it's not a matter of "under these circumstances", just "Unbound is bad and not allowed".
If I tried this I would be rejected the same as Mr. All Baneblades because they're both Unbound and they see Unbound as cheating nonsense. There's no split of "cheating Unbound" and "perfectly okay Unbound" just like there's no "cheating CAD" and "perfectly okay CAD", it's a matter of the option being okay or not completely and they say it's not.
It's not an option because it's not really an option unless my army actually gets accepted rather than me getting my teeth knocked out and my models broken (or whatever it is these people do to Unbound players).
And besides even if it was a real option (which it isn't), it's not really valid. It's no more of an army list than what Mr. All Baneblades does because it's not following the mandatory rules of building an army whether those rules never existed (like for Mr. All Baneblades) or were destroyed/taken away (like me, the other Dangle players and anyone else who lost options or had their armies invalidated) so it would be utterly hollow and meaningless. It might as well just be homebrew like /tg/'s Angry Marines for as "real" as it is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.

Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?

 tydrace wrote:

And thus they confer it back to the Darkshroud, so they all enjoy a delicious 4+ cover save in open field?

 Thairne wrote:

Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?

That's correct. Enjoy.

 Thairne wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

Do the Land Speeders in a Ravenwing Support Force gain the Shrouded from the Darkshroud as well? That would be great.

Yes, and Stealth too.

Only one model in a unit needs either rule to provide the whole unit with it.

Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.

Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?

RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.

Also, anyone who thinks Tau constantly ignore cover hasn't played many competitive games against them in practice. In reality, they don't get many Ignore Cover shots off in a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.

Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?

RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.

I don't think that's correct. It's Codex: Space Marines still. Just as Codex: Eldar changed to Codex: Craftworld.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

There's a bit of this already up- but otherwise, thanks!

Edit: Balls. No special ammo for veterans. Just the pity feth style Hellfire shells for scouts lol.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.

Doesn't the formation make them one unit?

 Ghaz wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.

It also has the special rule Support Squadron, which states it becomes a single Vehicle Squadron.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.

the rules state that all vehicles form a singular squadron (under support formation).

as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.

 bullyboy wrote:

as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.

That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?

 pretre wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.

Doesn't the formation make them one unit?

Spoiler:

Sorry, didn't see that on my crappy monitor and I believe other formations that make multiple units into one unit have it listed under 'Restrictions' (could be wrong... again )

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

Looking this over, it sounds like Azrael can't go in the Deathwing formation like that other guy said...
Would have to look for another Termie HQ, not sure if I'd go for a Belial proxy (one of the models I got in Shield of Baal which somebody said would fit the bill) or a Librarian.

Also for Hammer of Caliban would that mean that it's 3 Vindicators and a Land Raider in a squad together?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.

That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?

The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Looking this over, it sounds like Azrael can't go in the Deathwing formation like that other guy said...
Would have to look for another Termie HQ, not sure if I'd go for a Belial proxy (one of the models I got in Shield of Baal which somebody said would fit the bill) or a Librarian.

I'm using my Belial as Chapter Master with terminator armour and a relic blade. Way cheaper.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Also for Hammer of Caliban would that mean that it's 3 Vindicators and a Land Raider in a squad together?

Yeah. That restriction is rough. Maybe three lascannon predators without sponsons would be good together, but their engagement ranges wouldn't line up with a Land Raider charging its contents forward. Vindicators synergize nicely but a unit of three vindicators may not be worth it.

 Ghaz wrote:
Sorry, didn't see that on my crappy monitor and I believe other formations that make multiple units into one unit have it listed under 'Restrictions' (could be wrong... again )

It's new to all of us.

If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam

I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?

 tydrace wrote:

The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?

That's correct, but a unit only needs one model to have Stealth for the entire unit to benefit from it. So, like I said, the unit will have Stealth and Shrouded until it's reduced to only the Darkshroud left, then it only has Shrouded.

jakejackjake wrote:
If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam

I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?

What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?

And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tydrace wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam

I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?

What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?

And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.

Then you laugh and crush all these tier 2 armies with your 2+ rerollable jink Black Knights + Darkshroud.

Huh. The Ravenwing Command Squad lost the ability to carry the Chapter Banner (For that lovely +1 attack.)

A minor change but I also noticed all the Standards lost the stacking +1 to combat resolution, as did the Darkshroud. Sad face :( I liked forcing Daemonic Instability test on drawn combats with Daemons...

Everything about this post is wrong. Farsighted bombs with target locks and buff commander all have ignores cover. Marker lights ignore cover and can get other units ignore cover if enough hits are made. Skyrays (which are not poor units) have ignore cover.

And yes, the tau formation of broadsides + riptide do have preferred enemy space marines of any flavor.

Back on topic, so is the dark shroud actually part of the bike unit in that formation or are they two unique units that operate separately from each other?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.

Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?

RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.

Also, anyone who thinks Tau constantly ignore cover hasn't played many competitive games against them in practice. In reality, they don't get many Ignore Cover shots off in a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Then you laugh and crush all these tier 2 armies with your 2+ rerollable jink Black Knights + Darkshroud.

For the Lion!

 tydrace wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam

I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?

What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?

And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.

Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.

There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.

I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.

If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.

Look, Deathwing players. Deepstriking on turn one wouldn't have saved your army. It would still be rubbish. The only thing that could have saved Deathwing competitively was a
vicious points cut and the ability to assault from deep strike, which I'm disappointed they didn't get.

Think about it this way; Deathwing don't orbital drop. Deathwing don't walk. Deathwing don't even ride. Deathwing only ever teleport assault, and they're the best at it.

They have battle focus in Terminator armour, dammit. They're the ultimate Prima Donnas of one of the most special-flower Prima Donna l̶e̶g̶i̶o̶n̶ Chapters in the Imperium.

They eschew all other modes of transportation for lesser mortals. They don't get out of the Battle Barge in the morning unless there are actually heretics to smite. It's fluffy and fits most descriptions of how the Deathwing operate (teleporting en masse).

The easiest way to ensure this? Have an assassin on the board, hiding out of sight in some heavy cover. 140 points and your precious army is playable again.

Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!

I don't like how the Tactical Objectives force you to A: Have a Librarian B: Have both Ravenwing and Deathwing to score points. What the actual? Also, the first objective is always 3+d3 if you have enough turns and play Deathwing...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

Thank you sir! Apparently because I pre-ordered on Tuesday I don't get my codex until next wed!

It appears that DW lost twin linked on the deep strike.

jakejackjake wrote:If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam

Not just fear of losing, many consider it illegitimate and cheating because it's not an actual detachment/formation/whatever, whereas it's impossible to spin the fancy-pants formations that way.

Requizen wrote:Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.

There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.

I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.

If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.

They don't see a difference because both are Unbound. As mentioned it's an issue of "Do we allow this way of making armies or not?" rather than specific stuff. Dude with no Troops and dude with lots of Wraithknights aren't really doing anything different much like how an Imperial Guard CAD and a Ultramarine CAD aren't doing anything different.

With all that said, let's stop pretending that Unbound is an option so we don't sucker unsuspecting newbies into having their teeth and models broken (or whatever it is that people do to Unbound players), shall we?