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 Kavish wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

Thank you sir! Apparently because I pre-ordered on Tuesday I don't get my codex until next wed!

It appears that DW lost twin linked on the deep strike.

Nope, see below:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Requizen wrote:Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.

There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.

I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.

If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.

They don't see a difference because both are Unbound. As mentioned it's an issue of "Do we allow this way of making armies or not?" rather than specific stuff. Dude with no Troops and dude with lots of Wraithknights aren't really doing anything different much like how an Imperial Guard CAD and a Ultramarine CAD aren't doing anything different.

With all that said, let's stop pretending that Unbound is an option so we don't sucker unsuspecting newbies into having their teeth and models broken (or whatever it is that people do to Unbound players), shall we?

Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.

In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?

Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.

I have a question that may have been answered.... In the two death wing detachments it states that all units must be placed in deep strike reserve. It also states that all units bust have the death wing special rule....

Does that mean my interrogator chaplain in power armour starts in deep strike reserve and drops in with death wing terminators? I like. I like a lot.

Requizen wrote:
Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.

In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?

Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.

Hey, it's not my decision. You know what they say, don't shoot the messenger.
And those that have the issue don't make a distinction, you say "as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand" but it sounds like the universal response would be "No. off you stupid cheater!" and I don't want to be subjected to that risk, many would not want to be subjected to that either, so encouraging people to go Unbound and saying it's an option will only put them at risk. Better to just not do it at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I have a question that may have been answered.... In the two death wing detachments it states that all units must be placed in deep strike reserve. It also states that all units bust have the death wing special rule....

Does that mean my interrogator chaplain in power armour starts in deep strike reserve and drops in with death wing terminators? I like. I like a lot.

Yeah, apparently so.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!

Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.

How about the new smite rule for death wing Knights? Is it trade in for one attack and then apply modifiers? Or trade in for one attack full stop?

So is the conclave librarius still a legal formation or is it gone? If legal, there is the way to get your librarians and not tax units of you want to use the ravenwing detachment. Then Ezekiel will just go with a sky hammer formation for extra face ripping.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.

In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?

Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.

Hey, it's not my decision. You know what they say, don't shoot the messenger.
And those that have the issue don't make a distinction, you say "as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand" but it sounds like the universal response would be "No. off you stupid cheater!" and I don't want to be subjected to that risk, many would not want to be subjected to that either, so encouraging people to go Unbound and saying it's an option will only put them at risk. Better to just not do it at all.

What does that even mean? "Decision". You're not relaying some law, you're saying that your opinion is "punch people who run Unbound in the face". Plenty of people play Unbound. Plenty of people do so without conflict. Your opinion does not make it otherwise.

Rules are, Unbound is a thing. Being a decent human being means that you should accommodate people unless they're being a jerk. The person bringing Troop-less Space Marines isn't being a jerk. The person who doesn't even look a nd instead threatens to break their teeth and models (your words, not mine) is a jerk.

I know someone who hates the new Psychic Phase. He specifically runs armies without Psykers. He grumbles when we start our Psychic Phases and is known to throw dice. Is it "better to not have any Psykers at all" in case you interact with these sorts of people? No, because that's stupid. Psychic is part of the game, as is Unbound. Grow past it and play the game without insulting people for playing by the rules.

Locrian wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!

Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.

Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

axisofentropy wrote:

Locrian wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!

Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.

Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.

Though, it is thematic. Everything teleports in for Deathwing, not just themselves, but whatever leaders/vehicles/gear comes in as well.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.

That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?

the Avatar specifically states "the Avatar and all friendly units with the Eldar faction within 12"..." so this challenges your theory quite strongly. If it meant to include the Avatar, the need to indicate him specifically wouldn't be necessary.

axisofentropy wrote:

Locrian wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!

Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.

Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

So would such a unit be placed into Deep Strike Reserve and then do so? Or would it never arrive, stuck in reserve limbo?

My god, did this book even see an editor? Doesn't anyone proofread this crap? The SM and CWE book were both written pretty tightly and with rule that were as clear as you could ever expect GW to be. This book though, this book seems to be written by a class A amateur and what really pisses me off about this book, despite the fact that I'm not even playing DA, is how well this book demonstrates, that the people who wrote this book have zero understanding of the game, other than what they know about it through texts. It's clear that there were zero amounts of play testing involved in writing this book.

Requizen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.

Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.

 Kavish wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I'm late then I'm sorry.....

Otherwise, your welcome.

http://m.imgur.com/a/0zgd7

Thank you sir! Apparently because I pre-ordered on Tuesday I don't get my codex until next wed!

It appears that DW lost twin linked on the deep strike.

no they didn't, it's under the Deathwing rule

regarding the Tactical Objectives, I love that you always keep the Dark Angel specific ones secret to your opponent.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Requizen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.

Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.

It's not that I dislike it. I like it quite a lot, actually, Deathwing stuff teleporting in together is really cool and fluffy. But look at the post by axisofentropy above you - it's directly contradictory to the existing rules, without giving specific rules to override the BRB. If the Detachment said something like "models in this detachment gain the Deep Strike special rule if they do not have it", there would be no conflict and it would be all hunky dory. But without it:

Take a Land Raider as a DT for Terminators -> Has to be placed in DS reserve -> LR doesn't have DS -> ???

Place it in DS Reserve anyway because the Detachment says so? Fail to do so and put it just in Reserves or on the table? I would rule the former, but all it does is create 10-20 minutes of argument before a game starts. Like I said, poor writing. Not that the rules are bad, they're just transcribed poorly.

Small changes I just noticed:

No such thing as Deathwing Vehicle for Land Raiders anymore, although Venerable Dreads can still force penetrating result re-rolls.

The Ravenwing Command Squad Apothecary no longer replaces his bolt pistol, so he gets another Attack!

going back to the Land Speeder Support Squadron, what are people's thoughts on the loadouts. I'm thinking standard Darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/typhoon and 1 LS with HB/AC. 300pts on the nose.

What I love about it is......"Our bikes have Grim Resolve and overwatch you on a 5+.......well, my autarch has a banshee mask so no Overwatch for you.....yeah, but see all these land speeders? They get to overwatch too and there is nothing your banshee masks can do about it"

Requizen wrote:
What does that even mean? "Decision". You're not relaying some law, you're saying that your opinion is "punch people who run Unbound in the face". Plenty of people play Unbound. Plenty of people do so without conflict. Your opinion does not make it otherwise.

Decision - THEM deciding that Unbound isn't valid.
And now, that's not my opinion, that's their decision! I personally wouldn't care about my opponent doing Unbound that much but I know that everyone hates it and has made that decision and I'm afraid of it being applied to myself and others. So stop saying it's my opinion, I'm not the one thinking that way, it's THEM!

Requizen wrote:
Rules are, Unbound is a thing. Being a decent human being means that you should accommodate people unless they're being a jerk. The person bringing Troop-less Space Marines isn't being a jerk. The person who doesn't even look a nd instead threatens to break their teeth and models (your words, not mine) is a jerk.

But it doesn't matter, it's the people you call "jerks" who are making the decision rather than you or me, I can't stop them! They would just take it out on me if I tried!

Hmmm, running Belial as a CM with TDA, a Relic Blade, and Foe-Smiter seems to be a pretty good trade off for a 30 pt reduction in price.

Three questions for people who understand CADs, formations, detachments etc better than me.

1. Is the librarian conclave still useable? If yes, that is how you get librarians on bikes with the ravenwing detachment.

2. On the RW formation, are the bikes and speeders all one squad or two separate units? Is the same true for the land speeder formation?

3. Can formations from the Lions blade only be taken in that detachment?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Requizen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.

Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.

There are NUMEROUS, blatant problems with the rules as they are written in the codex. Many of them have been outlined here already. For example, the RW detachment has a 1-3 HQ slot, and a reroll warlord table rule, but the ONLY HQ allowed to be taken in the formation is Sammy, due to how the rules are written. There are quite a few others as well.

 bullyboy wrote:
going back to the Land Speeder Support Squadron, what are people's thoughts on the loadouts. I'm thinking standard Darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/typhoon and 1 LS with HB/AC. 300pts on the nose.

What I love about it is......"Our bikes have Grim Resolve and overwatch you on a 5+.......well, my autarch has a banshee mask so no Overwatch for you.....yeah, but see all these land speeders? They get to overwatch too and there is nothing your banshee masks can do about it"

Jink for a 2+ rerollable and then get a Primaris Rhino to buff your snapshots back to full BS 5.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Three questions for people who understand CADs, formations, detachments etc better than me.

1. Is the librarian conclave still useable? If yes, that is how you get librarians on bikes with the ravenwing detachment.

2. On the RW formation, are the bikes and speeders all one squad or two separate units? Is the same true for the land speeder formation?

3. Can formations from the Lions blade only be taken in that detachment?

1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.

2. Two units. One Vehicle Squadron unit.

3. Any formation that has a Dataslate, which most of them do, may be taken by itself without a Lion's Blade detachment.

I just realised this

Sammael

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Void Shield Generator
1850

is a legal Ravenwing bound army. It's terrible, you'll never get an objective, but you'll sure as hell murderise something on the turn you come in. How many vortices will be on the board on turn 5?

axisofentropy wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Three questions for people who understand CADs, formations, detachments etc better than me.

1. Is the librarian conclave still useable? If yes, that is how you get librarians on bikes with the ravenwing detachment.

2. On the RW formation, are the bikes and speeders all one squad or two separate units? Is the same true for the land speeder formation?

3. Can formations from the Lions blade only be taken in that detachment?

1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.

2. Two units. One Vehicle Squadron unit.

3. Any formation that has a Dataslate, which most of them do, may be taken by itself without a Lion's Blade detachment.

Fair enough. I'm less upset now. 4 Librarians and Sammy as HQs, followed by tons of bikers and dark shrouds with a sky hammer with Ezekiel and devies sounds like a plan.

axisofentropy wrote:

1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.

Which means you're Allying it in, not fielding it as part of a Dark Angels force.

 Kanluwen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:

1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.

Which means you're Allying it in, not fielding it as part of a Dark Angels force.

Yes?

I'm pissed, why is azreal the ONLY LoW without AP2 at initiative, hell, I'd take AP2 at I1. This is unacceptable

 raiden wrote:
I'm pissed, why is azreal the ONLY LoW without AP2 at initiative, hell, I'd take AP2 at I1. This is unacceptable

Also no EW, which is unusual for a SM Lord of War. He is both fragile and limited in damage capability. For five points more, Blood Angels get Commander Dante, who blows Azrael out of the water.

He's really not a fighty kind of guy. I mean, in his novel he spends the entirety of it running away from Kharn the Betrayer.

That said, how is it that the forgers of the Heavenfall Blades succeeded in making them so different? They should all be Str 6 AP 2 Fleshbane.

Instead, they parceled out Str 6 to Az , AP 2 to Sammael, and Fleshbane to Belial. And the Halberd's still superior...