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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32893810

A US court has backed a temporary hold on President Barack Obama's plans to shield almost five million illegal immigrants from deportation.
The hold was imposed after 26 states launched a legal challenge against the executive action, alleging it was unconstitutional.
An appeals court has now denied a government request to overturn it.
The White House said the action was essential to fix a "broken immigration system".
Under the plans, announced last year, people who entered the US illegally as children and parents of children who are US citizens would be offered temporary protection from deportation.
Aside from arguing President Obama acted outside his authority, the states say the move forces them to invest more in law enforcement, health care and education.
The 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals' ruling keeps the plans on hold while the states' legal challenge proceeds.
It is not clear yet whether the Obama administration will appeal.
The White House said the president acted within his powers to fix a "broken immigration system".
The Justice Department has argued that immigration policy is for the federal government to determine, not the states.
The department is now evaluating its next steps, a US official told Reuters on the condition of anonymity.
The Republican governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, who has been a persistent critic of the president's immigration policies, tweeted: "The constitution wins".

To break my usual habit when posting topics my thoughts are as follows; good. Granting amnesty does not solve the immigration debacle

Keep in mind that this is only for the injunction to remain in effect. The Judge still hasn't ruled on the merits of the case yet.

Also, the Judge is going to bitch slap the DoJ for lying to him.

Still a step in the right direction while we wait for the full case to be heard

 whembly wrote:
Also, the Judge is going to bitch slap the DoJ for lying to him.

That is not in doubt. It seems that the good Judge will be showing the DoJ the importance of not lying to a court official

The Captain Obvious in me says that some form of accommodation and understanding from both sides has to happen.
Someone who has grown up illegally in this country from childhood is in my mind entitled to become a citizen by virtue of the fact they would be outsiders in the country they would be departed to. They should be given a reasonable amount of time to complete the requirements for citizenship and call it good.

Relapse wrote:
The Captain Obvious in me says that some form of accommodation and understanding from both sides has to happen.
Someone who has grown up illegally in this country from childhood is in my mind entitled to become a citizen by virtue of the fact they would be outsiders in the country they would be departed to. They should be given a reasonable amount of time to complete the requirements for citizenship and call it good.

Then they may apply for entry when they are eligible to do so, after serving a ban from the country for their unlawful presence.

The only immigration amnesty i honestly found ok was that of kids who came here with their parents, especially when they older. They are effectively americans and I dont need to be deported. They deserve amnesty IMHO.
But I honestly remember something my friend said "Every country has, and will continue to have an "Immigration problem" because when you talk about a problem you often talk about undesirables entering the country, legally or otherwise. There will always be an Immigration problem"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The only immigration amnesty i honestly found ok was that of kids who came here with their parents, especially when they older. They are effectively americans and I dont need to be deported. They deserve amnesty IMHO.
But I honestly remember something my friend said "Every country has, and will continue to have an "Immigration problem" because when you talk about a problem you often talk about undesirables entering the country, legally or otherwise. There will always be an Immigration problem"

Living in a country for X amount of time legally does not grant automatic citizenship. Why should living here illegally grant that right?

There will always be crime too. Do we stop our efforts to curtail crime? How about diseases? Immigration may pose an issue, but having a massively porous border, ineffective controls, and demonizing those who don't want illegal immigration does not solve the problem.

Because the arguments against illegal immigrants fall apart when you talk about those that came here as wee children.

And no, im just saying another bad immigrant group will take its place.

The process can either be streamlined and allow for refugees/immigrants to enter the country, or the current method can be held in place that simply pours money into criminal organizations which leads to more problems...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because the arguments against illegal immigrants fall apart when you talk about those that came here as wee children.

And no, im just saying another bad immigrant group will take its place.

So which arguments fall apart when we think of the children?
Which other "bad immigrant group will take its place" if we actually enforce border controls and immigration laws?

Arguments fall apart because even if they are illegal, children of illegal immigrants are often full nationalized like any other americans and grew up in the US education system.

And whoever we dont like will be blamed for immigration problems, even if they are legal immigrants.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Arguments fall apart because even if they are illegal, children of illegal immigrants are often full nationalized like any other americans and grew up in the US education system.

They cannot be both illegal immigrant and properly naturalized citizens. They have to be one or the other. Growing up in the US education system is not a pre-requisite for nationality either.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And whoever we dont like will be blamed for immigration problems, even if they are legal immigrants.

That makes no sense unless you are trying to claim that;
a) illegal immigration is caused by legal immigration
or
b) legal immigrants are "another bad immigrant group"

No, because the children that grow up in the US from babies, even if they are illegal, are no different from those that grow up from babies to natural citizens. They are americans in all bu name

1: Irish where legal immigrants, people hated them
2: So where Chinese men near the turn of the century. Legal Immigrants
3: as where japanese in WW2, they where considered a bad group
4: Remember Zoot Suits? Latin americans where in WW2 considered a problem, despite often being legal immigrants.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, because the children that grow up in the US from babies, even if they are illegal, are no different from those that grow up from babies to natural citizens. They are americans in all bu name

But that does not make them naturalized, nor grants them legal status. They are still in this country unlawfully. That means that there is a pretty significant difference between those individuals and American citizens.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

1: Irish where legal immigrants, people hated them
2: So where Chinese men near the turn of the century. Legal Immigrants
3: as where japanese in WW2, they where considered a bad group
4: Remember Zoot Suits? Latin americans where in WW2 considered a problem, despite often being legal immigrants.

So what was it that made these groups "bad immigrant group[s]"? Why should the treatment that these groups received prevent us from enforcing border control and preventing illegal immigration?

It's a hard thing to do to someone, though, to throw them back to what is essentually an alien nation, especially, as is in the case of many, when they don't even speak the language.
It was stated earlier, they are U.S. citizens in all but the paperwork, and I think consideration should be given in those cases.

If we'd secure the fething border (that includes airports and shipping ports) and enforce existing employment laws against hiring illegals (ie, reduce the incentives to illegally immigrate), then I'd be more agreeable towards a plan of putting those already here on a path to citizenship.

However... that path must be different and harder than those who used legal means.

Relapse wrote:
It's a hard thing to do to someone, though, to throw them back to what is essentually an alien nation, especially, as is in the case of many, when they don't even speak the language.
It was stated earlier, they are U.S. citizens in all but the paperwork, and I think consideration should be given in those cases.

They should be allowed to apply for lawful entry. After they have removed themselves/been removed from the US. And after they have served a suitable ban for being unlawfully present in the US

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
It's a hard thing to do to someone, though, to throw them back to what is essentually an alien nation, especially, as is in the case of many, when they don't even speak the language.
It was stated earlier, they are U.S. citizens in all but the paperwork, and I think consideration should be given in those cases.

They should be allowed to apply for lawful entry. After they have removed themselves/been removed from the US. And after they have served a suitable ban for being unlawfully present in the US

Dread... if amnesty is granted, I'd sue the government to get whatever you had to pay in order to immigrate. (lawyers? paper fees? etc...)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The only immigration amnesty i honestly found ok was that of kids who came here with their parents, especially when they older. They are effectively americans and I dont need to be deported. They deserve amnesty IMHO.

I agree with this, right up to the point where some of these young'uns are out protesting waving Mexican flags, Dominican flags, Venezuelan flags, etc. To me, that shows a distinct lack of respect and, ultimately a desire for a one way ticket back to whatever country the flag they are waving is.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
It's a hard thing to do to someone, though, to throw them back to what is essentually an alien nation, especially, as is in the case of many, when they don't even speak the language.
It was stated earlier, they are U.S. citizens in all but the paperwork, and I think consideration should be given in those cases.

They should be allowed to apply for lawful entry. After they have removed themselves/been removed from the US. And after they have served a suitable ban for being unlawfully present in the US

So, send a 21 yr old who has never been to Mexico since he was one, grew up as an american citizen, speaks the language, knows the culture.
ALLL the way back a country he has never been and likely speaks the language poorly. BRILLIANT

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
It's a hard thing to do to someone, though, to throw them back to what is essentually an alien nation, especially, as is in the case of many, when they don't even speak the language.
It was stated earlier, they are U.S. citizens in all but the paperwork, and I think consideration should be given in those cases.

They should be allowed to apply for lawful entry. After they have removed themselves/been removed from the US. And after they have served a suitable ban for being unlawfully present in the US

So, send a 21 yr old who has never been to Mexico since he was one, grew up as an american citizen, speaks the language, knows the culture.
ALLL the way back a country he has never been and likely speaks the language poorly. BRILLIANT

Trying to see the downside.

That these people are pretty much americans at this point?
That they grew up in america, became naturalized except for papers?
I mean really, Undocumented immigrants isnt a black and white issue.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, send a 21 yr old who has never been to Mexico since he was one, grew up as an american citizen, speaks the language, knows the culture.
ALLL the way back a country he has never been and likely speaks the language poorly. BRILLIANT

Well that person is a Mexican citizen and not a US citizen. I have yet to hear a compelling argument from you as to why someone should be given preferential treatment because their parents brought them here illegally. If I had a child from a prior relationship and brought him/her into the country from a young age that child does not become a US citizen until they have been naturalized. Why do you feel that this requirement should not apply to unlawful immigrants?

Had the individual grown up as an American citizen then we would not be having this discussion as their legal status would be a given. If you mean that the illegal immigrant grew up exposed to American culture then that does not make him/her an American citizen. But it might help when it comes time to lawfully emigrate, integrate, and adjust status.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Dread... if amnesty is granted, I'd sue the government to get whatever you had to pay in order to immigrate. (lawyers? paper fees? etc...)

Not saying I'd sue, but just this recent round of paperwork is over $600, and then I have the privilege of paying another $85 for biometrics. This is maybe the second or third time I've paid for biometrics to date

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That these people are pretty much americans at this point?
That they grew up in america, became naturalized except for papers?
I mean really, Undocumented immigrants isnt a black and white issue.

pretty much is no are.
except for is not are
yes it is.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That these people are pretty much americans at this point?

Exposure to American culture =/= citizenship
Being in the American education system =/= citizenship
Being economically active in America =/= citizenship

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That they grew up in america, became naturalized except for papers?
I mean really, Undocumented immigrants isnt a black and white issue.

Really it is. You are either a US citizen (by birth or naturalization), a lawful alien resident, a permitted visitor, or an illegal immigrant and not permitted to remain in this country

 whembly wrote:

However... that path must be different and harder than those who used legal means.

I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

I have a sort of compromise. Its not amnesty, but it would allow people to remain here. With some steep penalties.


First off, we pick a date and clamp down on the borders HARD. Use the military if we have to.

At that same time, we have a period of time where anyone who has entered illegally can turn themselves in voluntarily. Those who do will receive permanent residence, however they will also receive the following legal punishments if they were over 18 at the time they crossed the border.

1) They are barred from becoming citizens.

2) They cannot gain Social Security, Medicare, or any other government provided benefits. They will still pay taxes as normal.

3) They must either be employed or married to someone who is employed. They must maintain this steady employment for a period of time, say 5 years. If they become unemployed for any significant period of time(say 6 months) they will be subject to deportation.

4) If they ever commit a felony during their stay in the US, or are found to have committed one prior to turning themselves in(except for crossing the border) they will be subject to deportation.

Any individuals under the age of 18 when they crossed the border will be able to apply for citizenship as normal and no further penalties will apply IF they have family or anyone willing to support them here, no dumping children across the border by themselves. Anyone born in the US to an illegal immigrant is of course a citizen and will have no actions taken against them.

After a period of time, the grace period for turning yourself in will close and anyone crossing the border after that will suffer the full penalties.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

We don't have to deport them all. When it is no longer economically viable for them to remain here they will leave, and it's an easy fix;
- no social security for illegal immigrants
- no medicare/medicaid for illegal immigrants
- no public school/tuition for illegal immigrants
- no driving licenses for illegal immigrants
- no government ID for illegal immigrants
- no public assistance for illegal immigrants
- expand e-verify to prevent employers using illegal immigrants
- jail time and serious fines for each illegal immigrant knowingly employed by a business
- use the money saved supporting illegal immigrants to have more ICE agents inspecting businesses known for employing illegal immigrants (taxi companies, restaurants, etc.)

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

We don't have to deport them all. When it is no longer economically viable for them to remain here they will leave, and it's an easy fix;
- no social security for illegal immigrants
- no medicare/medicaid for illegal immigrants
- no public school/tuition for illegal immigrants
- no driving licenses for illegal immigrants
- no government ID for illegal immigrants
- no public assistance for illegal immigrants
- expand e-verify to prevent employers using illegal immigrants
- jail time and serious fines for each illegal immigrant knowingly employed by a business
- use the money saved supporting illegal immigrants to have more ICE agents inspecting businesses known for employing illegal immigrants (taxi companies, restaurants, etc.)

We definitely need to do all that too.

We also need to allow more people to come here legally. We rely too much on migrant labor from Mexico to go cold turkey.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We definitely need to do all that too.

We also need to allow more people to come here legally. We rely too much on migrant labor from Mexico to go cold turkey.

I am all for legal migration. If we need more people here as seasonal workers then get more people in, but legally with visas.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

We don't have to deport them all. When it is no longer economically viable for them to remain here they will leave, and it's an easy fix;
- no social security for illegal immigrants
- no medicare/medicaid for illegal immigrants
- no public school/tuition for illegal immigrants
- no driving licenses for illegal immigrants
- no government ID for illegal immigrants
- no public assistance for illegal immigrants
- expand e-verify to prevent employers using illegal immigrants
- jail time and serious fines for each illegal immigrant knowingly employed by a business
- use the money saved supporting illegal immigrants to have more ICE agents inspecting businesses known for employing illegal immigrants (taxi companies, restaurants, etc.)

We definitely need to do all that too.

We also need to allow more people to come here legally. We rely too much on migrant labor from Mexico to go cold turkey.

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.