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Moving from Dakka Polls: threads about politics should go in the Off-Topic sub-forum. Thanks ~ Manchu

IM sure by this point in time we are all intimately familiar with Stolen Valor, Im just curious what everyone's opinions are on the matter.

(For those who have no idea WTF Stolen valor is, it is when someone Pretends to be a military veteran or walks around with a uniform and medals/ribbons they did not earn. The original Stolen valor act made it against the law, the new law makes it against the law if and only if the person gains some kind of benefit from the lie.)

I think its a gakky thing to do.
But, if the govt starts saying "You cant do this, its morally wrong" I dont like it. It is free speech whether we like it or not.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think its a gakky thing to do.
But, if the govt starts saying "You cant do this, its morally wrong" I dont like it. It is free speech whether we like it or not.

Pretty much. If you're using fake military ID/uniforms/whatever to gain something of value then it's fraud and should be punished appropriately (and within existing laws against fraud, not with its own special law). If it isn't then you're just a terrible person, but even terrible people have a right to free speech.

 Peregrine wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think its a gakky thing to do.
But, if the govt starts saying "You cant do this, its morally wrong" I dont like it. It is free speech whether we like it or not.

Pretty much. If you're using fake military ID/uniforms/whatever to gain something of value then it's fraud and should be punished appropriately (and within existing laws against fraud, not with its own special law). If it isn't then you're just a terrible person, but even terrible people have a right to free speech.

Now with that said, do you think it should be against the law for a veteran to call out someone who is faking it? I personally know of a few cases where veterans were arrested or ordered to leave an area by police because they were causing a "public disturbance" by calling out a Stolen Valor offender.

Pretty much. If you're using fake military ID/uniforms/whatever to gain something of value then it's fraud and should be punished appropriately (and within existing laws against fraud, not with its own special law). If it isn't then you're just a terrible person, but even terrible people have a right to free speech.

Agreed.

Unfortunately while stolen valor is d-baggery at it's finest, it's not the same as wearing a police uniform and impersonating an officer, for instance. A military uniform does not grant you the same level of authority over civilians, though it should be no less a uniform of respect.

If outlawed, what about historical reenactments? Or halloween costumes?

I'm all for shutting down scum and abusive behaviors, but when you spread a wide net with laws, sometimes you catch things you don't intend to.

I dont think its much of a problem in my country, but unlike say a police officer (who holds power over people) who impersonating should be illegal a soldier can't use his identity to impose anything. However if using the identity to gain benefits then like anything else that's illegal.

Makes sense to me.

But the fraudster should be broadcast as a fake as soon as found out to help minimize any potential damage.

Yup, just not to the level some take it, like violence.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Now with that said, do you think it should be against the law for a veteran to call out someone who is faking it? I personally know of a few cases where veterans were arrested or ordered to leave an area by police because they were causing a "public disturbance" by calling out a Stolen Valor offender.

That depends entirely on what the "calling out" is. Public criticism of someone who is supposedly lying about military service shouldn't be treated any differently than other public criticism. I suspect that at least some of those cases were in fact legitimate public disturbances and would have been treated exactly the same way if it was any other subject.

I despise stolen valor, but it shouldn't be against the law, it's free speech. Like others have said, if the person is falsely wearing a uniform and medals or ribbons and trying to get some kind of material benefit from it, then that should be charged under existing laws regarding fraud, but the wearing of the uniform itself should not be illegal.

Of course, people are equally free to expose and call out stolen valor in a lawful manner, like what Don Shipley does.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think its a gakky thing to do.
But, if the govt starts saying "You cant do this, its morally wrong" I dont like it. It is free speech whether we like it or not.

Pretty much. If you're using fake military ID/uniforms/whatever to gain something of value then it's fraud and should be punished appropriately (and within existing laws against fraud, not with its own special law). If it isn't then you're just a terrible person, but even terrible people have a right to free speech.

Now with that said, do you think it should be against the law for a veteran to call out someone who is faking it? I personally know of a few cases where veterans were arrested or ordered to leave an area by police because they were causing a "public disturbance" by calling out a Stolen Valor offender.

LEOs have demonstrated incompetence in enforcing the law time and time again. If a veteran calls it like he sees it, what's the problem?

Ridiculed? Sure.

Illegal? Only if such are being used to obtain something of material value that one otherwise wouldn't be entitled to, I.E. fraud.

Aside from that, if they want to play pretend hero, have at it, the rest of us will be free to mock them.

Fraud is not free speech, and this is certainly not a 1st amandment issue.
It is absolutely gaining goods or serviced through deception though, due to the amount of discounts and the like given to veterans in the US.

 marv335 wrote:
Fraud is not free speech, and this is certainly not a 1st amandment issue.
It is absolutely gaining goods or serviced through deception though, due to the amount of discounts and the like given to veterans in the US.

But that assumes that the person is actually taking advantage of those discounts. If they're just walking around in a uniform and getting people to say "thank you for serving" then it isn't fraud. And even if it is fraud whether it's worth prosecuting depends on the scale of it. Do we really want to tie up the courts over a liar unjustly claiming a veteran discount and getting $0.50 off a hamburger?

 marv335 wrote:
Fraud is not free speech, and this is certainly not a 1st amandment issue.
It is absolutely gaining goods or serviced through deception though, due to the amount of discounts and the like given to veterans in the US.

Only if they're going around making use of those discounts. If they're just walking around wearing a uniform and medals, then there's no material harm.

That really depends.

Is the person pretending in order deceive others and benefit themselves? I say yes.

Is the person wearing it for fun and open about not actually being in the military? I say no.

gakky thing to do.

I agree with the making it illegal if they are doing it to gain benefits.

Otherwise, meh.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I agree with the making it illegal if they are doing it to gain benefits.

In such cases it would be covered under existing fraud laws and is already illegal.

Im pretty sure it's illegal in Australia

I know some old guy's got sentenced to jail for it i think

I'm not sure it's free speech, but I certainly agree it shouldn't be illegal to do it. The issue to me is more of a natural check on government. When there is no attempt to use the uniform to defraud others, it's basically just a really douchy, lame thing to do. But lots of things are douchy and lame, like dudes walking around a music festival with no shirt on, or people that insist in telling you their made up excuse for why they were late for today, no matter how clearly you tell them you you don't give a gak.

We can't put people in prison just for being douches, basically.

I find the name 'Stolen Valour' cringeworthy.

 Albatross wrote:
I find the name 'Stolen Valour' cringeworthy.

You're not the only one

I don't really understand why this is something someone would want to do (if not for discount/benefits/fancy dress parties/re-enactment).

It's a topic that interests me, I repurpose parts of retired uniforms now and then (always careful not to use those from my own country), and remove all insignia (buttons, tags, boardings, etc.) tailor them, and turn them into stylised coats, but they're then very clearly "inspired" garments for people who like an aesthetic, and not for direct impersonation. You couldn't then take any of them and pass for the original owner.

But to straight up pretend to be something that other folk have lived and died for..? Why?

What immediately comes to mind is Hollywood. Do actors have any business wearing honors they did not receive? Or, is it an honor if they are portraying someone else?

Also, what is the injury in the case of a non-actor? I find the thing in bad taste. Would I want it illegal? There are far too many laws I'd rather see repealed.

Eadartri wrote:
What immediately comes to mind is Hollywood. Do actors have any business wearing honors they did not receive? Or, is it an honor if they are portraying someone else?

Also, what is the injury in the case of a non-actor? I find the thing in bad taste. Would I want it illegal? There are far too many laws I'd rather see repealed.

When it comes to legitimate costumes such as Halloween and actors portraying service members in movies I don't think anyone has a problem. Specifically since it is illegal to pretend to be a police officer but costumes and Actors are given a free pass, this would work in the same way. The problem is when you see a guy wearing Dress Blues with 27 ribbons and telling everyone how he was a Master Spaceship Door gunner. It is not so much that he is being given attention that drives veterans crazy its a level of disrespect they are showing towards the military. many of us have friends who are buried in that Uniform and find it highly offensive for someone who hasn't "Earned" the right to wear the uniform parading around like they are the biggest bad arse since Chesty Puller.

I would agree with this poll.

However, I know families where every single dollar counts, where one brother gave a uniform to another brother to get discounts.

I don't presume to judge.

To say its free speech is ignorance of what free speech was written for and the intent behind it. Federal Service to include the Military awards medals to those who have earned them in Federal Service. Any time you fake a benefit given to you it is a fraudulent act, whether you gain a benefit from it or not. For example, the Medal of Honor and Purple Heart have federal statutes that govern them, and the benefits anyone who has one earns. Just having it is fraudulent.

As far as too many laws, I also agree with that. There are far too many laws limiting freedoms, But protecting what makes these Service Members fight and die for, the honors given to them in such eventualities is not a law I would repeal.

As for actors, if you know how to wear a uniform and you pay attention in the movies, they purposely wear them incorrectly so as to be in compliance. Wearing it correctly would be illegal if not a member of the service. It bothers me every time I see a jacked up uniform on TV but then my wife reminds me they have to do that.

 redleger wrote:
To say its free speech is ignorance of what free speech was written for and the intent behind it. Federal Service to include the Military awards medals to those who have earned them in Federal Service. Any time you fake a benefit given to you it is a fraudulent act, whether you gain a benefit from it or not. For example, the Medal of Honor and Purple Heart have federal statutes that govern them, and the benefits anyone who has one earns. Just having it is fraudulent.

Laws against fraud already cover this. You don't need extra special laws for military uniforms. If someone wants to wear a uniform for their own reasons it's absolutely free speech (like reenacting, or as a costume, or because they like it, who cares). If they're doing it to misrepresent themselves with intent to defraud others, then that's already illegal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 redleger wrote:
There are far too many laws limiting freedoms, But protecting what makes these Service Members fight and die for, the honors given to them in such eventualities is not a law I would repeal.

And this is just insulting. Service members don't fight and die so they can get medals. They fight and die to protect things like freedom of speech (which you ironically think is worth abridging in this case).

I disagree with freedom of speech as interpreted by today's generations. The idea behind the 1st amendment was to give US citizens rights to speak out against the government and to put out unpopular ideas in order to get attention for those things. Mostly it was directed at the fact that the colonists didn't want taxation without representation and if you talked about that openly the Monarchy would have you arrested. What we have in todays society is the right to act like a complete A Hole without fear of anything because you can hide behind the 1st amendment.

Case and point would wearing a military uniform. As I pointed out if its for dress up like halloween or a reenactment thats fine. But when you wear it around the city or town because you want people to mistake you for a service member, thats not freedom of speech, thats Freedom of douchebaggery.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I disagree with freedom of speech as interpreted by today's generations. The idea behind the 1st amendment was to give US citizens rights to speak out against the government and to put out unpopular ideas in order to get attention for those things. Mostly it was directed at the fact that the colonists didn't want taxation without representation and if you talked about that openly the Monarchy would have you arrested. What we have in todays society is the right to act like a complete A Hole without fear of anything because you can hide behind the 1st amendment.

Case and point would wearing a military uniform. As I pointed out if its for dress up like halloween or a reenactment thats fine. But when you wear it around the city or town because you want people to mistake you for a service member, thats not freedom of speech, thats Freedom of douchebaggery.

Considering something "douchebaggery" is all a matter of opinion, a popular one, but an opinion nonetheless. One person's "douchebaggery" is another persons "whatever". Douchebaggery, in and of itself, is not illegal. Legislating morality is never a great way to go about doing things.