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2015/05/30 08:46:46
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Imperial Guard. Out of all of 'em, they are the only one remotely reminding of familiar enemies allowing them to deal with it.
In general, however, it would have no chance at fighting any of those.
The worst matchup for them would be Necrons. Besides them being led by actual GODS, the modern military has no weapons to damage them hard enough in order to stop them from regenerating.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 08:50:03
Da Stormlord wrote:This was a hard choice for me, so i posted it here to see what people say. I excluded imperial guard and Astartes from this one for obvious reasons..
What obvious reasons preclude those two that don't preclude, say, the Sisters of Battle?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2015/05/30 08:55:15
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Da Stormlord wrote:This was a hard choice for me, so i posted it here to see what people say. I excluded imperial guard and Astartes from this one for obvious reasons..
What obvious reasons preclude those two that don't preclude, say, the Sisters of Battle?
Good point
1500 pts
2000pts
2015/05/30 09:02:35
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Probably Harlequins. Sure, they are ridiculously fast and extremely killy at short range but...so are shotguns. I feel due to their small numbers and reliance on melee to engage the enemy means we'd have the advantage in this.
2015/05/30 09:06:36
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
For that matter, we'd likely do the same to a Marine chapter.
Modern military has zero chances against power armor. While there certainly are weapons that can penetrate it, they aren't mass-produced and unavailable for the general army.
/e: Actually, they would easily kill Space Wolves. No helmets isn't as cool as you'd think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 09:51:07
The Necrons open up by starting up the Sun in a massive solar storm that wipes away the entire population of Earth on the dayside of the planet, then sends a message that crashes any technology that receives it. Then they come down and wipe out what little of us are left after our civilization implodes.
In a first war of armageddon scale Chaos incursion; half of the world's combined militaries goes insane and devotes itself to Khorne before Angron and the world eaters even set foot on the planet. Nurglites would leave most of the planet dead of plagues that no science can cure before the plague marines and cultists even set foot on the planet, and by then there's nothing left to resist the oncoming of the plaguefather. Slaanesh is probably going to corrupt a vast deal of everyone as artists, pleasure seekers, perfectionists, and more keep on falling to Slaanesh's embrace until Governments start getting as fascist as possible to prevent more people from falling into Slaanesh's grip; then the Emperor's children come in with cultists and daemons and its much too late. Tzeentch is just going to corrupt every politician and scientist he can get before his forces set foot, and I'd bet a lot of nations would just surrender to the thread of Tzeentch's forces without even offering a fight.
How much damage an Ork WAAAGH! does depends on its size, a hundreds of millions or billions/tens of billions strong WAAAGH like at Armageddon sweeps aside human civilization with ease, while smaller ones in the thousands would be more of a nuisance and ones in the millions to tens of millions would be devastating but not quite civilization ending.
As for the Tyranids, a quote from Warseer.
Let's take your Royal Marines. Nay, let's take the combined might of Her Majesty's Armed Forces. All ~400,000 of them. They are defending their home from an invasion of inconsolable foes that will not bargain or reason with them, giving them an incalculable morale boost. They are on their home turf, they know the lay of the land, logistics are not stretched but at their best.
Now, 'realistically' this isn't a far cry from your average 40k invasion. Most worlds seem to have all the vital things worth guarding clustered within an area the size of Belgium (or the UK in this case). Excluding of course the key to victory which is located somewhere entirely else for the sake of plot. Here, that's Northern Ireland (but there's no deus ex machina waiting there for the Brits). Consequently, as far as the royal defenders of the crown are concerned, the rest of the world but their island may as well be one endless ocean.
So the Brits are ready, their defenses prepared. A storm cloud gathers overhead... Long before any actual fighting begins, key officers, political figures, media icons, and those just plain unlucky enough to get in the way are butchered by assassins literally invisible to any current sensors or the human eye. The only warning of these lethal lictors are dogs barking after a directionless pheromone trail. Guard dogs are quickly stationed everywhere of importance as an early warning system, attached to even individual trooper squads. But the damage is already done.
Around the same time, the clouds break overhead. Soldiers squirm, fidget, and scream as any exposed inch of skin is slowly dissolved over a period of hours by toxins in the air. Their lungs hemorrhage and collapse over a period of days. NBC suits are quickly issued and worn, but it is largely too late for those already infected or affected. No cure can be found against the rapidly mutating phage cells... at least not in time. Simultaneously, corrosive acids rapidly eat through aircraft and armored vehicles alike--the roofs of hangars not prepared to stand up against anything more than rain. Only vehicles housed in hardened underground hangars are safe. But the general infrastructure above them lies in ruins, everything from roads and telephone lines to shallowly buried waste pipes.
That's the first week. For the sake of argument, we'll pretend only 10% of the British soldiers, armored pieces, and vehicles are taken out of commission before countermeasures are employed. The material loss isn't the important thing, it's the blow to morale. How would the average soldier feel after being told that he can't call in air support because of inclement weather, after watching some of his friends die in agony with their flesh sloughing off before a shot is even fired, knowing that there weren't nearly enough NBC suits to go around so his civilian family members and friends are more likely dead than alive, and with public works out of commission, no way of checking for sure?
No, of course he's not going to run away. Where would he even run to? That's not the meaning of discipline; desertion or breaking and running are merely the worst-case-scenario possibilities.
Finally, a chance to go face to face with the enemy. Huge cloud banks roll in from the sea, blotting out the sky and the light. But this is no cloud--this a million (literally) gargoyles attacking but 1 of Britain's defense posts. Shoot up and you can't miss... but at the same time viscous living maggots fall from the sky like rain, too numerous to take cover from outside. They splat into body armor and flak vest alike, before wriggling their way under each soldier's uniform to the weak point around the armpits and burrowing through the flesh and painfully thrashing and chewing their way to the target's nervous system--resulting in paralyzation and more commonly, death. Individual gargoyles swoop low and fast into the garrison, beheading troopers with their scything tails faster than a body can pivot and track them, or belching bio-plasma from their mouths that chews through the side of an IFV's roof in seconds.
As ever, the Brits adapt quickly with redeployed forces, submunition-equipped SAMs, air-bursting rockets and mortars. Even though the garrison suffers crippling casualties, the million gargoyles are killed in a day. A kill ratio more than worthy of such a well-trained and equipped military.
But the Brits can't cheer for long, because they haven't really repelled the first wave. Mere hours after the first, another million gargoyles attack an installation further north up the cost. Hours after that another million attacks still farther south down the coast. For days this goes on. Days that turn into weeks. The Gargoyles were never meant to take and hold anything. They're merely a scouting force, feeding precious tactical data to the Hive Mind before their meaningless lives are cut short, testing England's defenses.
The men can barely sleep with the Hive Mind so close; a constant buzzing disrupts their dreams, and a pressure builds between their eyes into a migraine during the day. In the night, bunkers spotted out by the gargoyles are penetrated by 4 and 5-meter long Raveners burrowing up from underground, twisting writhing serpents whose thoraxes burst open like a frag grenade in the enclosed close quarters, their six bladed limbs a blur as they scythe through flesh and body armor alike.
Skittering hordes of gaunts equal in number to the gargoyles begin their own assaults. Here the individual soldier's attention begins to waver. With the battlenet a constant drone of barked orders and frantic questions, does he shoot at the inexorably approaching gaunts down the hill, or at the gargoyles who just lifted his squad sergeant into the air kicking and screaming?
By the end of the first month, fixed positions become mandatory as they only safeguard against those flying monsters and the still-toxic atmosphere; the bunkers ravener-proofed with seismographs and buried mines. Making yourself like a rock is the only way to withstand such endless numbers. The "home turf" advantage is meaningless now, as the accelerated growth of local flora changes the landscape into something unrecognizable, blocks lines of sight & fire, and shields heat signatures. The enemy has complete air-superiority by now. Even with careful limitations on the duration Britain's fighters and bombers are aloft and constant maintenance, the planes are brought down by gargoyles sucked into their engines' intake valves, or by massive Harridans and Harpies the size of planes but not warm enough to lock onto with heat seekers before they burst forth from the fog rippling off the jungles below into the cold northern air and grapple each plane to the ground.
And then the real assaults begin, led by 3-meter tall Warriors and floating brain-bags that carve through tanks with War of the Worlds-style death rays. Spores fall in an endless barrage of artillery, making even a mad dash from one bunker to the next unconnected by underground tunnels a near-suicidal proposition. The average foe at this stage has carapace too thick to be penetrated by LA80s while their heads have three sets of compound eyes and accompanying antennae to root out royal marines hidden or lying in wait.
Falling back is necessary. Shrink the vulnerable supply lines, concentrate the defenses in the capital. Few are left now. Only the most bad-ass emotionally bereft sociopathic trained killers survive. Every soldier left replaces their automatic rifles for automatic grenade launchers. There is no longer any point in saving equipment for 'specialists' and no expense is spared.
Challenger tanks defend every street with withering fire from behind hastily erected sandbag and steel berms. AA guns crown every roof, keeping gargoyles out of the hair of the soldiers below. Blind-firing artillery create a virtual wall of death around the city's perimeter to prevent the gaunts and warriors, and other gribblies from getting in. Bridges are blown and buildings strategically sapped and collapsed to form critical choke points. Mines, C4, and trip-wires are laid in abundance.
NOW.
YOU are next to a Challenger defending one of the city's intersections. Things seem to be going well according to the 'net. You're keeping the little ones bottled at the far end of the street.
But then everything changes in a thunderous clap that leaves you shell-shocked, disoriented, and deaf. A spore pod larger than any you've seen yet has landed on the Challenger, crushing it flat into the pavement... and rising up out of the spore's leathery exterior is a titanic monster the size of a small building. Instinctively, you fire a 40mm grenade round into its chest, with absolutely no effect.
Now what? You're on the opposite side of the thing from your squad mates. Behind you the gaunts and warriors are bounding up the alley unchecked. What do you do as it leans towards you? If you're creative enough, you might think to try shooting a round into its gaping mouth as it opens to swallow you whole. If you have the hand-eye coordination, you might try shooting the joint of the arm scything toward you and bisecting it. You could try rolling between its legs and dashing for your friends. You could retreat into the storefront next to you and climb to a higher level, where you might have a better vantage point.
No matter what you choose, you're dead. You were dead no matter what from the beginning. Its long reach and surprising agility allow it to carve through you or crush you in a fraction of a second. But how did you die? Did you get a last shot off? Did it count? Probably not. You could've, but you didn't. You failed to make your death meaningful.
That is the breakdown in discipline. That's what sells your life short when you could have been worth more.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 10:25:27
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2015/05/30 10:28:43
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
For that matter, we'd likely do the same to a Marine chapter.
Modern military has zero chances against power armor. While there certainly are weapons that can penetrate it, they aren't mass-produced and unavailable for the general army.
/e: Actually, they would easily kill Space Wolves. No helmets isn't as cool as you'd think.
Likewise, it depends if the Sisters in question are from the Calixis sector.
Calixis Sisters. On the upside, they cast spells. On the downside, they don't get helmets until they make veteran.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2015/05/30 10:33:46
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Hmm, Earth vs the World Eaters and Angron (and half of its own armed population) in a first war of armageddon scenario might be worth its own thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 10:34:24
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2015/05/30 13:58:56
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Kain wrote: The Necrons open up by starting up the Sun in a massive solar storm that wipes away the entire population of Earth on the dayside of the planet, then sends a message that crashes any technology that receives it. Then they come down and wipe out what little of us are left after our civilization implodes.
In a first war of armageddon scale Chaos incursion; half of the world's combined militaries goes insane and devotes itself to Khorne before Angron and the world eaters even set foot on the planet. Nurglites would leave most of the planet dead of plagues that no science can cure before the plague marines and cultists even set foot on the planet, and by then there's nothing left to resist the oncoming of the plaguefather. Slaanesh is probably going to corrupt a vast deal of everyone as artists, pleasure seekers, perfectionists, and more keep on falling to Slaanesh's embrace until Governments start getting as fascist as possible to prevent more people from falling into Slaanesh's grip; then the Emperor's children come in with cultists and daemons and its much too late. Tzeentch is just going to corrupt every politician and scientist he can get before his forces set foot, and I'd bet a lot of nations would just surrender to the thread of Tzeentch's forces without even offering a fight.
How much damage an Ork WAAAGH! does depends on its size, a hundreds of millions or billions/tens of billions strong WAAAGH like at Armageddon sweeps aside human civilization with ease, while smaller ones in the thousands would be more of a nuisance and ones in the millions to tens of millions would be devastating but not quite civilization ending.
As for the Tyranids, a quote from Warseer.
Let's take your Royal Marines. Nay, let's take the combined might of Her Majesty's Armed Forces. All ~400,000 of them. They are defending their home from an invasion of inconsolable foes that will not bargain or reason with them, giving them an incalculable morale boost. They are on their home turf, they know the lay of the land, logistics are not stretched but at their best.
Now, 'realistically' this isn't a far cry from your average 40k invasion. Most worlds seem to have all the vital things worth guarding clustered within an area the size of Belgium (or the UK in this case). Excluding of course the key to victory which is located somewhere entirely else for the sake of plot. Here, that's Northern Ireland (but there's no deus ex machina waiting there for the Brits). Consequently, as far as the royal defenders of the crown are concerned, the rest of the world but their island may as well be one endless ocean.
So the Brits are ready, their defenses prepared. A storm cloud gathers overhead... Long before any actual fighting begins, key officers, political figures, media icons, and those just plain unlucky enough to get in the way are butchered by assassins literally invisible to any current sensors or the human eye. The only warning of these lethal lictors are dogs barking after a directionless pheromone trail. Guard dogs are quickly stationed everywhere of importance as an early warning system, attached to even individual trooper squads. But the damage is already done.
Around the same time, the clouds break overhead. Soldiers squirm, fidget, and scream as any exposed inch of skin is slowly dissolved over a period of hours by toxins in the air. Their lungs hemorrhage and collapse over a period of days. NBC suits are quickly issued and worn, but it is largely too late for those already infected or affected. No cure can be found against the rapidly mutating phage cells... at least not in time. Simultaneously, corrosive acids rapidly eat through aircraft and armored vehicles alike--the roofs of hangars not prepared to stand up against anything more than rain. Only vehicles housed in hardened underground hangars are safe. But the general infrastructure above them lies in ruins, everything from roads and telephone lines to shallowly buried waste pipes.
That's the first week. For the sake of argument, we'll pretend only 10% of the British soldiers, armored pieces, and vehicles are taken out of commission before countermeasures are employed. The material loss isn't the important thing, it's the blow to morale. How would the average soldier feel after being told that he can't call in air support because of inclement weather, after watching some of his friends die in agony with their flesh sloughing off before a shot is even fired, knowing that there weren't nearly enough NBC suits to go around so his civilian family members and friends are more likely dead than alive, and with public works out of commission, no way of checking for sure?
No, of course he's not going to run away. Where would he even run to? That's not the meaning of discipline; desertion or breaking and running are merely the worst-case-scenario possibilities.
Finally, a chance to go face to face with the enemy. Huge cloud banks roll in from the sea, blotting out the sky and the light. But this is no cloud--this a million (literally) gargoyles attacking but 1 of Britain's defense posts. Shoot up and you can't miss... but at the same time viscous living maggots fall from the sky like rain, too numerous to take cover from outside. They splat into body armor and flak vest alike, before wriggling their way under each soldier's uniform to the weak point around the armpits and burrowing through the flesh and painfully thrashing and chewing their way to the target's nervous system--resulting in paralyzation and more commonly, death. Individual gargoyles swoop low and fast into the garrison, beheading troopers with their scything tails faster than a body can pivot and track them, or belching bio-plasma from their mouths that chews through the side of an IFV's roof in seconds.
As ever, the Brits adapt quickly with redeployed forces, submunition-equipped SAMs, air-bursting rockets and mortars. Even though the garrison suffers crippling casualties, the million gargoyles are killed in a day. A kill ratio more than worthy of such a well-trained and equipped military.
But the Brits can't cheer for long, because they haven't really repelled the first wave. Mere hours after the first, another million gargoyles attack an installation further north up the cost. Hours after that another million attacks still farther south down the coast. For days this goes on. Days that turn into weeks. The Gargoyles were never meant to take and hold anything. They're merely a scouting force, feeding precious tactical data to the Hive Mind before their meaningless lives are cut short, testing England's defenses.
The men can barely sleep with the Hive Mind so close; a constant buzzing disrupts their dreams, and a pressure builds between their eyes into a migraine during the day. In the night, bunkers spotted out by the gargoyles are penetrated by 4 and 5-meter long Raveners burrowing up from underground, twisting writhing serpents whose thoraxes burst open like a frag grenade in the enclosed close quarters, their six bladed limbs a blur as they scythe through flesh and body armor alike.
Skittering hordes of gaunts equal in number to the gargoyles begin their own assaults. Here the individual soldier's attention begins to waver. With the battlenet a constant drone of barked orders and frantic questions, does he shoot at the inexorably approaching gaunts down the hill, or at the gargoyles who just lifted his squad sergeant into the air kicking and screaming?
By the end of the first month, fixed positions become mandatory as they only safeguard against those flying monsters and the still-toxic atmosphere; the bunkers ravener-proofed with seismographs and buried mines. Making yourself like a rock is the only way to withstand such endless numbers. The "home turf" advantage is meaningless now, as the accelerated growth of local flora changes the landscape into something unrecognizable, blocks lines of sight & fire, and shields heat signatures. The enemy has complete air-superiority by now. Even with careful limitations on the duration Britain's fighters and bombers are aloft and constant maintenance, the planes are brought down by gargoyles sucked into their engines' intake valves, or by massive Harridans and Harpies the size of planes but not warm enough to lock onto with heat seekers before they burst forth from the fog rippling off the jungles below into the cold northern air and grapple each plane to the ground.
And then the real assaults begin, led by 3-meter tall Warriors and floating brain-bags that carve through tanks with War of the Worlds-style death rays. Spores fall in an endless barrage of artillery, making even a mad dash from one bunker to the next unconnected by underground tunnels a near-suicidal proposition. The average foe at this stage has carapace too thick to be penetrated by LA80s while their heads have three sets of compound eyes and accompanying antennae to root out royal marines hidden or lying in wait.
Falling back is necessary. Shrink the vulnerable supply lines, concentrate the defenses in the capital. Few are left now. Only the most bad-ass emotionally bereft sociopathic trained killers survive. Every soldier left replaces their automatic rifles for automatic grenade launchers. There is no longer any point in saving equipment for 'specialists' and no expense is spared.
Challenger tanks defend every street with withering fire from behind hastily erected sandbag and steel berms. AA guns crown every roof, keeping gargoyles out of the hair of the soldiers below. Blind-firing artillery create a virtual wall of death around the city's perimeter to prevent the gaunts and warriors, and other gribblies from getting in. Bridges are blown and buildings strategically sapped and collapsed to form critical choke points. Mines, C4, and trip-wires are laid in abundance.
NOW.
YOU are next to a Challenger defending one of the city's intersections. Things seem to be going well according to the 'net. You're keeping the little ones bottled at the far end of the street.
But then everything changes in a thunderous clap that leaves you shell-shocked, disoriented, and deaf. A spore pod larger than any you've seen yet has landed on the Challenger, crushing it flat into the pavement... and rising up out of the spore's leathery exterior is a titanic monster the size of a small building. Instinctively, you fire a 40mm grenade round into its chest, with absolutely no effect.
Now what? You're on the opposite side of the thing from your squad mates. Behind you the gaunts and warriors are bounding up the alley unchecked. What do you do as it leans towards you? If you're creative enough, you might think to try shooting a round into its gaping mouth as it opens to swallow you whole. If you have the hand-eye coordination, you might try shooting the joint of the arm scything toward you and bisecting it. You could try rolling between its legs and dashing for your friends. You could retreat into the storefront next to you and climb to a higher level, where you might have a better vantage point.
No matter what you choose, you're dead. You were dead no matter what from the beginning. Its long reach and surprising agility allow it to carve through you or crush you in a fraction of a second. But how did you die? Did you get a last shot off? Did it count? Probably not. You could've, but you didn't. You failed to make your death meaningful.
That is the breakdown in discipline. That's what sells your life short when you could have been worth more.
That quote about a Tyranid invasion.... really hammers home the futility of fighting Nids. At least for the military forces of our world.
Out of all the 40k races, I think we'd be most effective against Imperial forces simply because they fight in a similar way to what we do now... but in the end we'd lose simply because the Imperium has more numbers than we could ever field.
We'd probably get a much better kill ratio against IG but it doesn't matter - they don't care about casualties and would eventually roll over us.
Ironically, I'd say Marines would be pretty easy to take down, 50 cal machine guns stand a chance of penetrating and 50 cal sniper rifles definitely could with AP rounds. Any HE tank rounds or missiles/ rocket launchers would also kill them. Whilst power armour is good versus small arms, it wouldn't protect very well against spalling or concussive forces. I'm not saying they wouldn't do damage but I do believe a Space Marine Chapter would be so much easier to take down than an IG combined arms regiment.
What the quote didn't mention is how much of the world's defenses would be crippled and sabotaged by genestealer cultist infiltration. Everything from strategic arsenals, to the generalship to our very political, religious, cultural, and scientific circles. You'd see things like the American senate enacting ordinances to cripple America's military years before the invasion begins before leading millions into digestion pools to die while the few remaining nuclear subs, silos, and bombers to survive the gutting of the armed forces are taken out by sudden mutiny and men in economically high places taking the steps needed to crash the economy into deep recessions and depressions. Many countries would collapse into civil war at the behest of the cult as it spreads all across the world; crawling its way up the ladder of command while modern society; not being built with the expectation of literal mind control and genetic subversion, ambles along largely unaware of the rot building within. By the time the hive fleet arrives, the world is a genestealer corrupted shell of its former self as the cult welcomes the end of the world in open arms and arises all at once to pave the way for the swarm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 14:43:26
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2015/05/30 14:53:24
Subject: Re:Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
No modern military is well suited to deal with the kind of world wide attritional war the Tyranids wage. That is because society and modern armies are dependent on a vast web of logistics to keep functioning. Raw materials need to be harvested from fields and mines, and shipped to factories for processing into food and war material and then shipped off to the actual fighting units. Even if frontline units were holding their own against waves of Tyranid attacks, eventually they would run low on munitions and replacement troops. All these vulnerable infrastructure sites and transport lines would eventually be targeted and destroyed as there simply aren't enough troops to escort or garrison them all.
In contrast, the Tyranids can and do process all the incidental biomass of the planet even in sparsely inhabited wilderness. The biomass of the wilderness is of no direct use as a resource to human militaries but every scrap of biomass can be used by Tyranids to birth more Tyranids, and they can recycle the dead. A trained human soldier needs years to mature and then be trained, as well as being dependent on all the material supply chains to supply him his weaponry in order to be useful. An unarmed human is nowhere near the same level of threat as a freshly born Hormagaunt (even if the human kills the Hormagaunt, they will probably sustain injuries incapacitating them and requiring medical treatment before being combat ready again).
Even if humans hunker down into well prepared defensive sites capable of defeating direct attacks, the Tyranids can then just pin them there while they absorb the rest of the planet. That's assuming of course that the humans don't starve from lack of food. Then when the Tyranids have absorbed sufficient biomass, they can just hurl enough Tyranids at human defensive sites to overwhelm them by sheer numbers.
2015/05/30 15:44:26
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
See, I would feel that Astartes would be far beyond our capability to fight, but that's because I assume that humanity has evolved somewhat from M3 to M41. I mean, you'd think it was pretty preposterous to say that a Greek Hoplite or Roman Legionnaire would beat a modern day Navy Seal/SAS, and that's how I feel about our Seals/SAS vs Astartes. I just assume that power armour is made of handwavium that our weapons can't damage, even our strongest. Hell, even nuclear armaments shouldn't affect Marines in my headcanon, but that's just it: headcanon.
Overall, an underequipped AM infantry regiment would be an easy matchup, but a full combined arms force, with artillery, Leman Russes and more guardsmen than you can shake a stick at would be more challenging.
They/them
2015/05/30 16:37:49
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
It depends on your interpretation of the Astartes and due to GW's nonexistent canon policies none of them are wrong.
I find discussing the Chaos Space Marines more interesting as I find the factor provided by Chaos to inspire more interesting debate regarding an assault on modern earth.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2015/05/30 17:25:18
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
I like how you guys treat Astartes as if they're just going to stand around and let themselves be butchered, If you actually think a Space Marine would let himself get into a position of extreme disadvantage against us like that you have no Idea what Space Marines are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 17:25:35
"Why? It is as I have already said, We knew from the beginning we could not stand, But it did not matter, 'Iron Within, Iron Without'. We made them pay".
2015/05/30 17:42:01
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Really, 40k is a Fantasy universe with a Scifi skin, and when compared to actual, real armies, they just don't really work.
Modern armies have weapons that would put the capabilities of the Eldar to shame. A modern MBT can move at highway speeds over rough ground and hit another target moving at highway speeds over 2000m away with something like a 90-95% accuracy rate, with shells that can penetrate up to a full meter of steel armor in some cases. Artillery can be fired from 40km away from multiple batteries and all land at the same time within 5m of the target. A modern army will have zero problems fighting at night, sometimes even performing better at night. Aircraft can engage each other from nearly 200km distant without ever seeing their target.
If you took something like NATO and pitted it against a 40k faction (unless you're talking something like a Tyranid invastion so massive where they just have such vast numbers that the entire biosphere is overrun and destroyed), the real world military would emerge victorious rather easily. On the table, they'd play much more like Eldar speed, stats, and firepower with IG numbers and heavy armor, almost everything having a "no-LoS-needed" capability, and with Networked Markerlights on damn near everything.
For that matter, we'd likely do the same to a Marine chapter.
Modern military has zero chances against power armor. While there certainly are weapons that can penetrate it, they aren't mass-produced and unavailable for the general army.
/e: Actually, they would easily kill Space Wolves. No helmets isn't as cool as you'd think.
Power armor can and has been shown to be able to be defeated by 20th century style weaponry such as small arms and things like Mortars in GW published fluff, even if they're highly resistant to it. In no depiction is something like Power Armor invulnerable to anti-tank weapons, heavy artillery, crew served heavy weapons, etc. Against top-tier 21st century armies,Space Marines wouldn't do very well at all. Sure, they're impressive infantry, but ultimately they're still infantry, and absurdly few in number to boot.
Psienesis wrote: All of the above have the ability to destroy us from orbit. We have no technologies to counter that. We lose.
And yet such is rarely used in the 40k universe. Besides, it's not like Earth doesn't have several thousand nuclear armed missiles capable of striking into orbit.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:04:56
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/05/30 18:02:31
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
What defense does the harlequin have against carpet bombing? And if you do not need to aim at them, what kind of defense do they have ?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/05/30 18:06:39
Subject: Re:Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Tyranids, because as soon as they enter the real world their laughably bad science no longer works and they probably can't even survive long enough to have a battle.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/05/30 18:14:52
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Modern armies have weapons that would put the capabilities of the Eldar to shame.
I completly disagree with this. If you are basing your argument on TT stats, then the only conclusions you will draw will be biased. Range, firepower and mlitary capabilities are toned down in ordrer to make something balanced and playable and I do think that in 40k "IRL", Eldar would beat the sh*t out of their IG equivalent .
You imply our weapons are the best one can ever have . That's essentially because that's the best weapons we actually have. Our militaries have so outstanding capabilities that we think we have arrived to the end of weaponry perfection. Eldar, if they would have to exist somewhere in space right now, would be fighting with stuff we can't even imagine. I don't think the best MBT in the Western world could match the perfect alliance of firepower and mobility a Fire Prism is.
And as usual, you cannot think of military effectivness without thinking about the system within any military unit evolve. Eldar master Webway, teleportation, antigravitic engines, Void Shields and Titans. They fight as one body in a terrific danse that would strike our best tacticians with sheer awe.
Don't think we're the best of the universe because we're the best of our world
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:18:24
Joking aside modern military wouldn't stand a chance against any faction from the 40k universe.
Even petty guardsmen grow up on far harsher worlds than our own, and to survive to adulthood in 40k probably makes them stronger and smarter than most if not all of our population.
Space Marines would just drop pod into the most fortified senior HQ and wipe them from the map, cutting the head off the snake.
Worst opponents would be Chaos or Dark Eldar, because they don't just kill you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:22:14
2015/05/30 18:26:14
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Modern armies have weapons that would put the capabilities of the Eldar to shame.
I completly disagree with this. If you are basing your argument on TT stats, then the only conclusions you will draw will be biased.
It's not just TT stats, but anything portrayed in a 40k setting. I have never seen anything in a 40k background story to match the capabilities of modern militaries, it's all variations of a WW2 paradigm coupled with High Fantasy wrapped in a scifi skin. There's a reason for that. It's easy for the reader to grasp, it's something everyone can visualize, and it makes for spectacular imagery. But it falls flat when forced into reality.
You imply our weapons are the best one can ever have .
Not at all, just that they're better than the overwhelmingly vast majority of what's portrayed in 40k.
That's essentially because that's the best weapons we actually have. Our militaries have so outstanding capabilities that we think we have arrived to the end of weaponry perfection. Eldar, if they would have to exist somewhere in space right now, would be fighting with stuff we can even imagine. I don't think the best MBT in the world could match the perfect alliance of firepower and mobility a Fire Prism is.
Find me a fluff example of any 40k tank, Fire Prism or no, that can move at 50km+ and hit another target moving at even fast speeds, over rough ground, from 2000m+, with shells capable of penetrating up to a meter of steel. 40k just doesn't function on this paradigm, it's not intended to. It's a Fantasy setting, not a hard-scifi setting.
And as usual, you cannot think of military effectivness without thinking about the system within any military unit would evolve. Eldar master Webway, teleportation, antigravitic engines, Void Shields and Titans. They fight as one in a terrific danse that would strike our best tacticians in awe.
Titan's are a stupid real world weapon. They're the kind of thing that's simply obliterated by artillery and aircraft because they can be targeted and destroyed from dozens of kilometers away. There's a reason things like massive railway guns, monster tanks like the P1000 Ratte, and other things never became anything more than failed curiosities. The Webway is nice, but it's not something they can just open up anywhere and pop through in most cases (often requiring a pre-existing portal), and the Eldar as they exist in the current setting can't maintain their entire network either, it's slowly falling apart on them. Anti-gravitic engines are cool, but a Helicopter can manage largely the same thing in terms of battlefield role. Meanwhile, "fighting as a dance" and whatnot is all very well and good, until their position is called out over a radio and artillery shells fired from dozens of miles away simply blanket the area.
Joking aside modern military wouldn't stand a chance against any faction from the 40k universe.
Even petty guardsmen grow up on far harsher worlds than our own, and to survive to adulthood in 40k probably makes them stronger and smarter than most if not all of our population.
Space Marines would just drop pod into the most fortified senior HQ and wipe them from the map, cutting the head off the snake.
This is an often quoted "trueism", but makes no account of how they'd know where that is, no potential defenses, nor any redundant command and control elements. With most modern militaries, they are not that centralized as to be so overwhelmingly vulnerable to such a thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:30:24
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/05/30 18:39:17
Subject: Re:Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
The answer is obviously Tau, as they're the only ones that will accept surrender.
The modern armies are torn to pieces by the Tau effortlessly, but those who surrender will be issued pulse rifles and Hammerheads once Earth accepts the Greater Good.
XT-1984 wrote: Even petty guardsmen grow up on far harsher worlds than our own, and to survive to adulthood in 40k probably makes them stronger and smarter than most if not all of our population.
Ehh I think that’s highly unlikely. Most imperial guardsmen hails from worlds where malnourishment and famine is widespread, an as for the guardsmen being smart, remember that the imperium runs on ignorance and censorship, so the greater part of the guard probably suffers from Dyslexia.
Most humans in the imperium, be they a serviceman or a common citizen, would probably be worse off than our average ‘Dark age’ peasant.
XT-1984 wrote: Space Marines would just drop pod into the most fortified senior HQ and wipe them from the map, cutting the head off the snake.
Luckily for us, most developed nation has more than one “head”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:46:37
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
2015/05/30 18:52:05
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Joking aside modern military wouldn't stand a chance against any faction from the 40k universe.
Even petty guardsmen grow up on far harsher worlds than our own, and to survive to adulthood in 40k probably makes them stronger and smarter than most if not all of our population.
Space Marines would just drop pod into the most fortified senior HQ and wipe them from the map, cutting the head off the snake.
Worst opponents would be Chaos or Dark Eldar, because they don't just kill you.
Ya'll are also forgetting the weapon-class that has basically been left as a "worst-case" weapon and a planetary invasion is "worst case"--Nuclear Weapons. We have the capability to build nuclear weapons in the hundred-megaton range if we want. We currently don't, but the technology exists. 2-5 Megaton intercontinental ballistic missiles are a thing along with far more accurate, road-mobile, 500 kiloton weapons. A single warhead of this magnitude can lay waste to quite a large force and cause all kinds of disruptions. Barring orbital bombardment (which is a total game changer we don't have a counter to currently) in a fight on the ground, nuclear weapons are extremely effective at wiping out concentrations of forces--and as described, power armor won't protect you if you are in the blast, nor will much else. It is also a haywire attack across a massive area if you do a high-altitude burst with them.
As for "cutting off the head of the snake" this works for heavily-centralized armies like the Soviet military or the Iraqi military. The US military, and many NATO allies, are designed to be flexible down to the junior officer and sergeant levels. It may be harder to do coordinated strikes, but these kinds of armies are a hell of a lot harder to stamp out.
The greatest weakness of the Imperium of Man armies is also not their technology, but their dogma. They refuse to learn, they believe development of new tactics to be heresy and that there is only one way to fight. If a force with equipment more like a modern military, but the tactical adapability of say...terrorist organizations, you have a really nasty combination. The Imperium of Man has basically forgone the basic adaptability of man to change and develop for new battles. As soon as we start to get our hands on the technology of a new enemies we find ways to adapt it and start using it. Clearly you don't need super-human genes to wear/lift your power armor, so we start to use any we get our hands on.
The longer a war goes against most of the factions, the more we adapt and develop new tactics and start to find new ways of fighting back. The game 40k clearly takes out a lot of the complications of warfare and simplifies it for the sake of gameplay, fluffwise, you rarely read about people winning battles through tactical genius, it's all just glorified individual heroics. Real wars are won with operational soundness punctuated by individual heroism.
2015/05/30 19:07:18
Subject: Which 40k army would the modern military most want to fight?
Ya'll are also forgetting the weapon-class that has basically been left as a "worst-case" weapon and a planetary invasion is "worst case"--Nuclear Weapons. We have the capability to build nuclear weapons in the hundred-megaton range if we want. We currently don't, but the technology exists. 2-5 Megaton intercontinental ballistic missiles are a thing along with far more accurate, road-mobile, 500 kiloton weapons. A single warhead of this magnitude can lay waste to quite a large force and cause all kinds of disruptions. Barring orbital bombardment (which is a total game changer we don't have a counter to currently) in a fight on the ground, nuclear weapons are extremely effective at wiping out concentrations of forces--and as described, power armor won't protect you if you are in the blast, nor will much else. It is also a haywire attack across a massive area if you do a high-altitude burst with them.
As soon as we start to get our hands on the technology of a new enemies we find ways to adapt it and start using it. Clearly you don't need super-human genes to wear/lift your power armor, so we start to use any we get our hands on.
The longer a war goes against most of the factions, the more we adapt and develop new tactics and start to find new ways of fighting back. The game 40k clearly takes out a lot of the complications of warfare and simplifies it for the sake of gameplay, fluffwise, you rarely read about people winning battles through tactical genius, it's all just glorified individual heroics. Real wars are won with operational soundness punctuated by individual heroism.
The Tau're big on operational soundness.
... and while most factions would have nukes used on them, it's more likely Earth would choose Tau leadership over nuclear suicide.
1500 pts
2000pts 
- 22nd Rhayé Storm Division : 2000points (Spetsnaz-themed IG)
- Ordo Xenos : ~700pts
