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 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

Be aware, there are sycophants who repeat what most of the dakkadakka community says, but at night when everyone sleeps, they secretly order from the GW site

 Azreal13 wrote:
I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.

It is. It sounds like you got a great deal there. Though "almost 50% of retail" is a little vague... I mean, if we are being fair, you can always get 20% off the RRP if you're buying online. So a "new" land raider costs ~£36. If you were able to get your land raider for ~£18 I'd be impressed. But I rarely see land raiders on ebay for much under £30, even for badly painted ones. That's not a big saving over buying new from places like Dark Sphere or Wayland. The OOP RT Land raiders are usually over £50 regardless of condition, so I think it's fair to say they hold their value quite well.

I wish other things held their value so well. Clothes lose about 90% of their value as soon as you take the tags off. Things like phones and computers tend to be worthless after a couple of years too, as are some books.

I think a more pertinent issue, is whether miniatures will continue to hold their value after 3D printing takes hold. In thirty more years it might be so easy to replicate things like miniatures, the bottom could fall out of the 2nd hand market completely.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

Be aware, there are sycophants who repeat what most of the dakkadakka community says, but at night when everyone sleeps, they secretly order from the GW site

lol .....I'm just repeating the facts as I see them presented.
However while I make fun of raging heroes..I did buy a ton of stuff form them ..so were all a little guilty.

I do think gw is massively over priced though. And its pretty easy to not buy more space marines from them when I have an epic ton floating around already

 Smacks wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.

It is. It sounds like you got a great deal there. Though "almost 50% of retail" is a little vague... I mean, if we are being fair, you can always get 20% off the RRP if you're buying online. So a "new" land raider costs ~£36. If you were able to get your land raider for ~£18 I'd be impressed. But I rarely see land raiders on ebay for much under £30, even for badly painted ones. That's not a big saving over buying new from places like Dark Sphere or Wayland. The OOP RT Land raiders are usually over £50 regardless of condition, so I think it's fair to say they hold their value quite well.

I wish other things held their value so well. Clothes lose about 90% of their value as soon as you take the tags off. Things like phones and computers tend to be worthless after a couple of years too, as are some books.

I think a more pertinent issue, is whether miniatures will continue to hold their value after 3D printing takes hold. In thirty more years it might be so easy to replicate things like miniatures, the bottom could fall out of the 2nd hand market completely.

Ok, for the sake of clarity, I paid £25 for NOS Chaos Land Raider, including shipping. It's currently £46 on GWUK.com, and would qualify for free shipping. So, allowing for shipping costs, I'd guess I paid ~£22 for the model itself. (Shipping was 'free' but it never really is.)

 jah-joshua wrote:
i totally agree with most of that, TheAuldGrump...

as you say, the real value of eBay for a painter is that it attracts new commission clients, especially those who are not active on forums, and would not have found me otherwise...

as for it being much harder today, that depends on the painter...
i worked hard to establish a pedigree as an industry painter, and award winner, before going to eBay, so everything i paint sells...
i'm sure that i am the exception, rather than the rule, though...
i am also very particular about what i paint for eBay, as totally random stuff isn't going to be as easy to sell, nor will it bring as high a price...

one thing of interest to this topic, is that painted GW minis, especially 40k, sell much better than any other manufacturer's minis, and make up about 95% of my commissions and sales...
as much as i would love to paint more Infinity or PP stuff, people just seem to want more 40K minis than anything else...
if i paint an Infinity mini for eBay, i have to accept that it will sell for about half of what a 40K model would bring in, which is sad, because Infinity has some incredible sculpts...

either way you slice it, selling second hand minis is not going to make anyone rich, nor is painting minis...
that's why i live in the Third World...
i live two blocks from the beach, surf all day, and paint all night...
as much as i love my hometown, i sure as hell couldn't do that in Redondo Beach!!!

cheers
jah

For the last while that I was painting miniatures the big sellers weren't GW minis - but were for GW games. (I focused more on Fantasy than 40K. There is less competition for Fantasy, or at least there was. (I think that GW is killing the Warhammer Fantasy market with the way that they are handling the line.)

That painted unit of Mantic ghouls and zombies led to an order for 300(?!) more Mantic zombies, though in that case it was for Pathfinder. (Part of the reason that I wished I had kept the unit - and not helped by the customer wanting lots of zombies, not good looking zeds - 300 simple block, dip, detail, flock zombies. But thank the gods for dip.... it made it easy to do 300 zombies, even if I wasn't happy, at least the customer was.)

Nowadays... there are more reliable ways to make money, and I do commissions for friends and enjoy painting for myself and my friends more than I enjoyed the money from strangers.

The Auld Grump, gods, I haven't entered a competition in almost a decade....

 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....
People who still buy are 29

It "seems" correct from what I have seen at my FLGS.

People who did by but now don't are 45

Speaking from that age bracket usually not much is bought BUT may buy a "one of each" just to try the models out and that is about it.
My squads seem to each represent a different generation of marine releases so they are characterful through that means.

Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

That is what makes all the grumpy comments and possibly rage is from the older crowd.
The company that was had been such an engaged community and really can generate some nostalgia.
The aloof "give us your money" company of today is such a stark contrast, while the new players really see no big deal about it because they did not have the prior experience.

I'd suggest the younger players may have different objections to us pensioners, but it seems from the last few reports, they're still objecting.

Unless the vet crowd was a much bigger element of GW's customer base than is commonly represented.

Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.

I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?

When it comes to selling and buying on eBay, there are ridiculous bargains; I got two fully painted and modelled GUOs for £16 each, two Predators (one needing work) for £15, a land raider/rhino/predator for £35 and a bumload of Giant Rats (not GW) and Rat Swarms for about £15, we're talking at least 25 giant rats here.

On the other hand things like Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends of Slaanesh are rare and upwards of £30 each. I very often see models selling for close to their GW price. My fully modelled and painted Death Guard dreadnoughts were an exception atabout £15 each but painted models and full armies are outrageously priced. I *do* pay more for painted and converted models, but I'm not paying a grand for a 1500-point army.

 NoPoet wrote:
I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!

£50!

I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?

There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?

A 5 man version is still available for £25, which is exactly the same price as the last kit, but with a newer sculpt, and bits.

I think the old one was £20.50 actually.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'd suggest the younger players may have different objections to us pensioners, but it seems from the last few reports, they're still objecting.

Unless the vet crowd was a much bigger element of GW's customer base than is commonly represented.

Sounds like something that can be answered with *gasp* market research!

But such things are otiose.

I still have a hard time believing that the CEO of a multi-million pound company actually said that.

I know that he did, but I just have a hard time believing it.

The Auld Grump

Now that my HH army is done, I haven't bought anything in a while. Some of the mechanicus stuff looks nice, but I have Reaper Bones I and Reaper Bones II kickstarters that I'm working on.

I guess you can say I've switched gears.

I will buy the Space Marine Codex and the HH book 5 that just came out...eventually. No hurry or sense of excitement like I've had in the past.

 Blacksails wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi

This is a joke, right?

I thought the thread itself was a joke...

Obviously nobody has purchased a single GW miniatures since 1995 right?

I mean I have bought and seen people buy stuff but maybe its just a glitch in the Matrix...


Can the thread be renamed to something more accurate such as "I want to rant about GW, who's with me?!?"

Can the thread be renamed to something more accurate such as "I want to rant about GW, who's with me?!?"

Refreshing.

I still pick up stuff, mostly LOTR stuff, but I haven't bought into the new hobbit minis. If I saw some at a discount somewhere I would go for it.

I wouldn't do an entire army out of GW miniatures anymore though, I think. Because there are too many other decent options on the market, and my tastes have moved away from the 40K and Fantasy aesthetics.

I'm buying more GW stuff than PP though, even though I like the PP game better, the models (specifically the materials they are made from and their inconsistent scaling and proportions) are not worth it for me with no community to use them in.

I havent bought anything from GW in awhile...I usually go 2nd hand or from a local game store.

Of course I still buy GW stuff.

 CT GAMER wrote:


I thought the thread itself was a joke...

Not sure why you'd think. Maybe if you thought its because GW's prices are a joke.

Obviously nobody has purchased a single GW miniatures since 1995 right?

The hardcore haven't bought one since 1895. Get with it man. If you're going to be a hater, might as well go balls out.

I mean I have bought and seen people buy stuff but maybe its just a glitch in the Matrix...

Definitely a glitch. An agent will be along shortly.

Can the thread be renamed to something more accurate such as "I want to rant about GW, who's with me?!?"

I felt the thread's purpose was pretty obvious. There was reasonable discussion for much of the thread, and it can continue if people are willing to, you know, discuss.

For many people its not about the amount of money they have available to spend on their hobby.

But more to do with not wanting to support the incompetent corporate management in charge at GW plc.

GW plc admit to a 76% gross profit before the cost of logistic and retail is factored in.
(GW sources tell me logistics runs at about 10% of gross profits.)
So without the cost of GWs own retail chain they would have a nett profit of about 68%.
After the cost of GW s own retail chain is taken out , they are left with less than 13% nett profit.

So the GW plc retail chain cost them 55% of their turn over.And only generates 43% of sales.
They spend £68M on their own shops to get £53M worth of sales.(To generate appx £38M profit.)

They spend less than £2M on the remaining sales channels that generate £70M of sales .(To generate appx £42M profit.)

So if GW did not have its own expensive retail chain and just sold through independent retailers.
They could halve the retail price , and make more nett profit due to increased sales and massively reduced overheads.

If GW plc was run effectively as either a games company , or effectively as a minatures company,
GWs customers would get much better value for money from GW plc.

I refuse to pay the 'incompetent management' tax (appx 45% of the RRP) GW plc want to charge.

Others may feel the GW products are worth the artificially inflated price for what ever reason.

If you ever have chance to read 'The little red book' , it will tell you exactly how low an opinion the GW corporate management has of GW customers.

Things I don't care about:

- How much GW loves me
- Whether or not the CEO is an ass
- How well GW is managed
- GW's financial statements and annual profits
- The profit margin on models

Things I do care about:

- Whether I think the models are nice
- Whether I am ok with the prices of the models
- Whether the people who I DO talk to at GW are friendly and helpful
- Whether I enjoy reading the books
- Whether I enjoy the playing game

If I'm buying a model, I DO care about whether I'm paying $20 for a kit or $75 for a kit. I really don't care about whether it cost $0.05 to make, or $45 to make, because that's not my problem. Frankly, I'm happy for a company if they make good profit on a product. There is nothing at all wrong with making a healthy profit margin; it allows you to pay your employees better and incentivizes you to create more product.

To say, "If GW were run more effectively, they could give me x, y and z" sounds ridiculous to me. Why should they do anything other than produce a product for the most total profit for them?

I got the decision of buying GW stuff taken out of my hands back in 2011. I was living in a country outside the EU (with no gaming stores) and entirely reliant on orders from Wayland Games, Maelstrom etc. I then had a £200 or so order cancelled when GW brought in the 'out of EU sales' ban, and that plan for a new WHFB army went on hold.

Ultimately after having a chat with the guy from the store I ended up looking around the rest of the webstore and starting up Infinity..

Would I have still tried to play other games without that policy change? Undoubtedly (I already played FoW and some other historicals) but that helped push me towards looking at sci-fi/fantasy outside of 40k and WHFB. Now feel like my hobby is much more complete because of it!

 Talys wrote:
Things I don't care about:

- How much GW loves me
- Whether or not the CEO is an ass
- How well GW is managed
- GW's financial statements and annual profits
- The profit margin on models

Things I do care about:

- Whether I think the models are nice
- Whether I am ok with the prices of the models
- Whether the people who I DO talk to at GW are friendly and helpful
- Whether I enjoy reading the books
- Whether I enjoy the playing game

If I'm buying a model, I DO care about whether I'm paying $20 for a kit or $75 for a kit. I really don't care about whether it cost $0.05 to make, or $45 to make, because that's not my problem. Frankly, I'm happy for a company if they make good profit on a product. There is nothing at all wrong with making a healthy profit margin; it allows you to pay your employees better and incentivizes you to create more product.

To say, "If GW were run more effectively, they could give me x, y and z" sounds ridiculous to me. Why should they do anything other than produce a product for the most total profit for them?

That's both naive and myopic.

If GW aren't making good decisions, or making models that people other than just you like, or writing books other people enjoy, or making a game other people like playing, or charging a price other people find good value, there'll be no more GW.

Then where will all these things you care about be?

But then, your "I'm alright Jack" attitude is pretty obvious to anyone who's seen more than a handful of your posts, and while, objectively, you're completely correct to place what you like and enjoy ahead of everything else, it is a selfish attitude and if things are happening that are causing other people to turn their backs on GW and spend less on their product, simply declaring "well, never mind these things don't bother me" is ultimately going to damage the "GW hobby" you profess to love so much.

Not really. As an end consumer, I don't have any moral duty to anything other than my own enjoyment. I buy what I want, when I want to. That's how the market works.

Sure, goodwill and support can keep a struggling, garage shop type business open a bit longer, but GW is a publically traded firm. My decisions don't affect them much, and there's nothing anybody can do to change GW.

Yes there is - don't buy their products.

The wargaming hobby isn't like some massive business like consumer electronics or FMCG, it's much more of a community, but that's irrelevant, the point I was making is taking the attitude of I don't care about things that don't affect me when those things could very much affect you in the bigger picture sense is daft, because if you're the only one left enjoying things, you've got a bit of a problem.

It isn't a question of consumer morality, it's a question of short sightedness.

Mixed feelings about this, on one hand I would like that GW moved away from the current path by making it affordable for a wider audience, on the other hand I could care less about their red book or similar BS.

Im kind of selfish I guess because I cannot resist good minis regardless of who does them.

Well, realistically, that's probably the way forward. A flat boycott won't achieve much because there's no lines of communication for the, to understand why. If you only buy items you feel are of sufficient quality to justify the price, while they may not understand why you've bought it, there is at least a chance they'll try and repeat their success and hit the mark again.

 Polonius wrote:
Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.

I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?

Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.

Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.

I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.

I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?

Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.

Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.

I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.

Plus, vets used to be the folks that collected multiple armies - and when somebody wanted to try, oh, let's say Orks, the Vet would have a force of Snakebites, Bad Moons, Goffs, or Evil Suns that the newb could try - which would often led to a new player and collector being born.

Now my extra armies are for different games - but I still buy models for those games.

Every single model that I buy for another game is a sale lost to GW.

And I no longer have spare armies to loan to new players for GW games, but I have brought people into Kings of War and Deadzone - which are more sales that are lost to GW. (GW lost a group of about twenty players from my local area in one swell foop with WHFB 8th edition - and it looks like few if any will be coming back with 9th edition.)

A company that depends on word of mouth for its advertising really cannot afford to alienate the long time fans of their products.

The Auld Grump, or does that tread too close to market research?