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chaos0xomega wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Yeah.... Fireblades (an IC) won't become a troops choice. Please use some common sense.

They'd be elites at least lol

Tyranid Broodlords went from being HQ's to Character upgrades for Troops choices, so its not unprecedented. I.E. - Your argument shows a lack of common sense.

To be fair, Genestealers did not exactly have a Sergeant option already. The Fire Warriors do.

I'm still thinking either some sort of combined fire bonus, or the ability to split into combat teams. That would make the holoprojector thingamabob better.

Also, the fusion blaster blast would be useful for say, oh, invisible deathstars. Especially since you can marker light them to ignore cover (hopefully).

The raker is 6 shots at S7. I think that's pretty strong together with the secondary weapon. BS3 is pretty miserable though.

It also has 6 wounds for just 130 points, considering the 2 Drones are included in the price.

 Gamgee wrote:

The ITC has ruled GMC's can in fact fire all their weapons. On top of this someone on ATT has gotten an email from WD who says of course the Stormsurge can fire all of its guns.

Suuuure...

 Gamgee wrote:

Your one of the few people that still thinks otherwise at this point all trying to gain a tiny rules advantage.

Dude... I play Tau... How can I gain a rule advantage from limiting my own stuff ?

chaos0xomega wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Yeah.... Fireblades (an IC) won't become a troops choice. Please use some common sense.

They'd be elites at least lol

Tyranid Broodlords went from being HQ's to Character upgrades for Troops choices, so its not unprecedented. I.E. - Your argument shows a lack of common sense.

Actually, that's one of the suggested changes I said I would like to see about,oh, twenty pages back or so. But making them an out and out troops choice (rather than some sort of upgrade option a'la veteran sergeants or commissars or eldar council) is what lacks common sense. But hey, get all offended on the internet, bud. Have at it.

Beating your drum louder doesn't make you more correct. Now please let us discuss the new rules for the suit without dragging this into a rules debate. We have an existing thread I believe.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Let's drop the image on here shall we, save folks a workblocked journey lol.
Spoilered for viewing convenience.

Spoiler:

Nice idea but the image doesn't seem to have worked.

No idea why. It worked just a moment ago.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Let's drop the image on here shall we, save folks a workblocked journey lol.
Spoilered for viewing convenience.

Spoiler:

Nice idea but the image doesn't seem to have worked.

No idea why. It worked just a moment ago.

It's because it is Flickr. If you don't click on the image link, it never really shows up as an embed.

 Gamgee wrote:
Beating your drum louder doesn't make you more correct. Now please let us discuss the new rules for the suit without dragging this into a rules debate. We have an existing thread I believe.

Nice retreat. Amon would be proud.


Anyway, I have just noticed that the Electrowarfare Suite boosts both the Stealth and the Shrouded special rule. Since the Ghostkeel has both with the drones, this means a solid +6 bonus to its cover saves against shots from more than 12". This is kinda' neat.

Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)

Doesn't look like a retreat to me, looks like he just wasn't going to argue with someone who was just wrong.

Yeah, 2+ cover saves outside of 12" is pretty baller. Of course, you're going to have to use your jump move to get it if you're in melta range during your shot.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Doesn't look like a retreat to me, looks like he just wasn't going to argue with someone who was just wrong.

Except he's not wrong. If you really want to continue this discussion YMDC is the place, not here.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)

It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".

That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.

Really? You don't see a use for the Fusion Collider?

Same range as a Fusion Blaster, same statline but with Blast thrown in. The things that a Fusion Blaster excels at killing(vehicles, high armor/Toughness things) it also will excel at killing...but with a Blast thrown in.
It's a half ranged version of a Knight's Thermal Cannon that is Assault with a point less Strength and on a far more mobile platform than even an Imperial Knight!

If the opponent knows how to spread out units to coherency, small blasts rarely hit more than 2 targets, max. And with BS3, Scatter is much less reliable than just plain shooting in my experience.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Doesn't look like a retreat to me, looks like he just wasn't going to argue with someone who was just wrong.

Yeah, 2+ cover saves outside of 12" is pretty baller. Of course, you're going to have to use your jump move to get it if you're in melta range during your shot.

The raker has range 24" which should be just about enough to dance in and out with while maintaining a really good cover save. Even if something does come close, the unit still gets 4+ cover saves. The high rate of fire of the raker, and the optional large blast, gives it a pretty good potential for killing things, especially with some marker light support.

Are two of these better than taking a highly upgraded Riptide? That remains to be seen.

EDIT: The model has two different head options?

Requizen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.

Really? You don't see a use for the Fusion Collider?

Same range as a Fusion Blaster, same statline but with Blast thrown in. The things that a Fusion Blaster excels at killing(vehicles, high armor/Toughness things) it also will excel at killing...but with a Blast thrown in.
It's a half ranged version of a Knight's Thermal Cannon that is Assault with a point less Strength and on a far more mobile platform than even an Imperial Knight!

If the opponent knows how to spread out units to coherency, small blasts rarely hit more than 2 targets, max. And with BS3, Scatter is much less reliable than just plain shooting in my experience.

That's assuming no Markerlights on targets, etc.

With how Markerlights operate now? Even two tokens for BS5 means that Scatter is looking a lot less irksome.

You're right that small blasts are very limited, but that's a good thing.

 Carnage43 wrote:
This is what modern Dreadnoughts should look like rules wise.

T5 Sv3+?

I'd be OK with my SM/CSM Dreads also going that direction, given that they are my tertiary army

Or course, my primary army has their DEQs at T8 Sv3+, not T5...

New Ghostkeel rules on WargamerShawn's facebook page https://www.facebook.com/wargamershawn?ref=hl

DEQ's?

I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.

It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.

This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.

It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.

This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.

Gamgee wrote:This thing also sucks at anti-tank.

It is a better missile side... sort of. It just needs to be closer and behind your lines with those rakers.

Edit
Nevermind I derped. It's not.

Soooo... .what's this thing's role?

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the melta weapons. The CIR sounds like a better deal. I think it's a more mobile Broadside, with a mix of Stealth Suit. But I think changemod got their better niche:

changemod wrote:They're also probably the best assault unit tau have now, by the way. Not as a primary or even secondary role for them, just good to remember in a pinch you can get 12 swings at S6 AP2 plus HoW and a handful of ineffectual drone slaps. Unlike a Riptide who'd be fighting solo, that's enough volume of attacks that you aren't automatically tarpiting yourself out of the game.

Yeap. Barring the LoWs, it's the least afraid Tau unit in melee we have. and for measly 3 points (BKR), it'll regroup very fast, so it'll hardly leave the table.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Atia wrote:
EDIT: pics are to big, you can see them here too^^

Ghostkeel rules

http://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/249

I'm liking them, pretty solid rules. Perhaps this means that stealth suits will get the same sort of bonus?

I hope so! They need all the help they can get.

BrookM wrote:DEQ's?

Dreadnought Equivalent

 TheNewBlood wrote:

I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.

It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.

This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.

It's not horrible in CC, it's S6 AP2 with 3 attacks(4 on charge) each. Drones can fight also though more as wound cushions. Crap WS of course, but that doesn't hurt much unless there is a large difference.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.

Well, this is their replacement, obviously. Your old models are lame and boring and GW already got paid for them a long time ago. You're not supposed to keep using the old stuff when there's new stuff.

And if you're a new player you're supposed to buy the old stuff because you don't know any better, and then buy the new stuff after you figure out what's up so that GW gets more money.

 BrookM wrote:
DEQ's?

Dreadnought EQuivalents.

Consider the progression from MEQs and GEQs to TEQs, and you get DEQs

This is becoming fething acronym hell..

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)

It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".

That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.

Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.

Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.

overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.

 Bulldogging wrote:
It's not horrible in CC, it's S6 AP2 with 3 attacks(4 on charge) each. Drones can fight also though more as wound cushions. Crap WS of course, but that doesn't hurt much unless there is a large difference.

WS 2 means it hits on 5s vs WS4+ and basically everything hits it on 3s (except Orks who failed a fear check because GW hates Orks). Ive seen the horror of watching killa kanz try to hit space marines as they slowly krak grenade them to death.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.

The drones are listed as Jet Pack Infantry

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)

It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".

That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.

Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.

Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.

overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.

MTC is a "single model has the USR -> whole unit has the USR" type of rule.

Gratzie. I forgot to look when I skimmed the image. So DT tests for the drones will be a hassle but overall I really like the suit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)

It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".

That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.

Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.

Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.

overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.

MTC is a "single model has the USR -> whole unit has the USR" type of rule.

Nope. Look it up again - move through cover is not conferred to a unit like stealth or shrouded.