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Actually its a bit of both. MTC lets the unit roll 3D6 taking the highest for movement in cover. MTC only auto passes dangerous terrain on the models that have the special rule.

And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.

gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.



Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.

gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.



Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.

My R'varna one-shotted an Ironclad Dreadnought (which was too overconfident about its 6 attacks) right after I told my opponent Riptides suck in melee.

Just an FYI a Weapon Skill 2 model hits Weapon Skill 4 models in close combat n a 4+, not a 5+. 140 points for one of these with the cyclic gun and TL fusion blaster is pretty darned good.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.

I think the most accurate way to put it is it's not good for cost in CC.

3 attacks, 4+HoW if charging at S6 AP2 with 3+ T5 W4 in defence is a respectable combat statline, just not a high end dedicated combat unit combat statline. Outclasses most shooty things by a good stretch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
Just an FYI a Weapon Skill 2 model hits Weapon Skill 4 models in close combat n a 4+, not a 5+. 140 points for one of these with the cyclic gun and TL fusion blaster is pretty darned good.

He'll most likely be confused by the misprint on the to WS vs WS to wound chart in the digital edition of the 7th ed core book.

It gives 2/4 as 5+ for some uncorrected messup reason.

So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.

I don't see it.

The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.

The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)


Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.

It's a side grade to the HYMP sides. It offers much more mobility and toughness at the expense of firepower. There could be a niche situation where that is much better to have than the slow lumbering XV88.

I give the rules a 3/5. Adequate but niche. At least it's better than the disaster that was the stormsurge.

I will agree it's secondary weapon's don't synergise with it well at all. I would never consider taking these for fusion guns. Too expensive for that and you have nearly 3x the points tied up in melee if anything makes sit into melee.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't see it.

The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.

The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)


Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.

Two current dual Missile Pod Crisis Suits are just over 100 points. This thing with a TL Fusion Blaster is 140 points. You basically pay 30-40 points (depending on the chosen secondary weapon) to have Toughness 5, two extra ablative wounds, pretty much a permanent 2+ cover save in the open when outside 12" of enemy units, a 2+ cover save in any kind of terrain regardless of enemy proximity, forcing a unit to snap fire at it once per game, monstrous creature rules/profile, much stronger melee presence and self defence, etc. It trades some firepower - you shoot two less shots at 12" less range but have a Twin-Linked secondary gun thrown in - for vastly improved durability in almost all cases. The smaller Battlesuits are the most efficient sources of firepower in the Tau codex but are also incredibly fragile, the Ghostkeel strikes the balance between the two well IMO as any actual S10 AP2 Ignores Cover hits it suffers can just be allocated to the Drones. It's virtually a T5 W6 Monstrous Creature with a 2+ save against almost all shooting with decent firepower, melee presence and mobility of its own all at a super low price.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't see it.

The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.

The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)


Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.

That's pretty much where I'm sitting at it, sadly. I want to like it, I think it's a nice looking model, but I can't really figure out what the point of it is. It suffers from the same issue as the Stormsurge. There's better anti-tank in Tau, and much better anti-anfantry.
Neither model really does anything better than options already available. However, at least the GK is pretty cool looking.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.

gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.

Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.

My R'varna one-shotted an Ironclad Dreadnought (which was too overconfident about its 6 attacks) right after I told my opponent Riptides suck in melee.

My lone Fire Warrior survived CC with a 1 HP Imp Knight who hit 1 of 4 melee attacks, rolled a 1 to wound, the FW hit with his EMP grenade, rolled a 6 to pen (purely to salt the wound), knight goes nuclear, blast scatters deeper into the ruins they where in and the cover save kept the Fire Warrior alive. Ish can happen but I wouldn't call that indicative of a Fire Warrior being good in CC against a Super Heavy Walker

I think I'll use only the TL BC, keeping the flamers if I know fast melee units are around.

But I rather the CIR for the S8 large blast than the fusion blast.

The CIR is definitely the better weapon at first glance unless Fire Team/formations/etc affects it. A Strength 8 AP4 Large Blast buffed by potential Ignores Cover (if that stays) is still no joke for anti-infantry, and six Strength 7 AP4 shots plus four Strength 5 AP5 shots is fairly decent for what you pay and when buffed to Ballistic Skill 5 is quite potent against medium to light vehicles and monstrous creatures. The mix of durability and mobility on this thing is what makes it work for sure, opponents that lack Ignores Cover will struggle to get to grips with it.

Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.

Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!

Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.

The Riptide is so cool I have this as its theme song.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.

It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.

When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).

A Ghostkeel with the CIS is strictly better than an Ion-Accelerator equipped Riptide against vehicles, funnily enough. Double the Strength 7 shots, similar anti-tank firepower from the secondary weapons, etc that the AP2 is cancelled out. Of course against anything else the Riptide wins in a firepower fight and is much harder to kill where Ignores Cover/small arms fire/melee attacks are concerned. This is also quite a bit cheaper than a Riptide. It definitely has its place as the things that usually kill Riptides will bounce right off of a Ghostkeel. Also, Ghostkeels with their Drones laugh at Graviton weapons which is amusing.

Caederes wrote:
A Ghostkeel with the CIS is strictly better than an Ion-Accelerator equipped Riptide against vehicles, funnily enough. Double the Strength 7 shots, similar anti-tank firepower from the secondary weapons, etc that the AP2 is cancelled out. Of course against anything else the Riptide wins in a firepower fight and is much harder to kill where Ignores Cover/small arms fire/melee attacks are concerned. This is also quite a bit cheaper than a Riptide. It definitely has its place as the things that usually kill Riptides will bounce right off of a Ghostkeel.

Good point. I'm going to make it a point to pick up one for sure. The problem is though with Riptides you can have HYMP broadsides nearby to support them. Which puts out much more firepower, but granted aren't as strong.

 Gamgee wrote:
Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.

Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!

Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.

The Riptide is so cool I have this as its theme song.

I don't know about you Gamgee, but I'm surely using the new Decurion-style formations.
A CAD will be used just for my FW stuff

Think of this as a mobile broadside with an added defense layer, and suddenly it seems all more viable.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.

It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.

When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).

Fair enough, but why did they put it out now? I thought that formation thing went extinct and I don't see a way to field all four tanks in a base codex list D:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.

Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!

Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.

The Riptide is so cool I have this as its theme song.

I don't know about you Gamgee, but I'm surely using the new Decurion-style formations.
A CAD will be used just for my FW stuff

True true. We'll have to see how good ours are. This is the make it or break it phase for if Tau Empire will be relevant again. By themselves the units are mediocre and merely good (so far). If the formations are good though it could boost our viability big time.

 Gamgee wrote:
Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.

Vectored Retro-Thrusters are currently still a thing. Since this beast is not a Riptide, they(and their Drones) can gain Hit and Run. Initiative test of 4(characteristics tests go against the highest value in the unit per p13 of the BRB), so on a 1-4 they're disengaging 3D6.

And that WS2? That's not as bad as you might think given that it being a Monstrous Creature means it can cause Fear(a minor consolation to the Tau player certainly, but something that could potentially alter the dynamic of a fight) when going against something that has a LD value, and that it's attacking with 3 S6 AP2 attacks or a single S10 AP2 attack which can reroll Armour Penetration rolls and a single automatic hit via HoW at S6 AP-.

Now of course VRT are subject to change when the Codex hits, but this thing can be mean as all get out--even if you opt not to ever use it as an annoyance in CC through its use of a Thrust Move after unloading Melta at short range.

Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!

Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.

No. It really does not have to compete with anything unless they do not make this book a Decurion styled setup.

I mean come on. We all know how these book setups work now, right? The "unique" CAD for the army will not be the same as the traditional 1 HQ 2 Troops and the rest. To think that this thing is going to be competing in anything beyond points is patently silly.


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 Tinkrr wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.

It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.

When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).

Fair enough, but why did they put it out now? I thought that formation thing went extinct and I don't see a way to field all four tanks in a base codex list D:

We're supposed to see a new Codex soon. It might be that it got put up early or they just don't care. I posted up the "Oc-tau-ber is here" thing that they posted on the Warhammer App which basically says "New Codex and Supplements!", so I think they're trying to actually put the word out more than a week in advance for some stuff.


The fact that the product description on the AIC says the following?

This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.

It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.

It wouldn't be the first formation they copy-pasted from Apoc into 7e 40k.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm now really starting to think that Fire Team is that each Ghostkeel and their attendant drones are counted as a "unit".

I suspect it is some ability to split unit fire. I also suspect it might be a Universal Tau rule applicable to most units, not just these or stealth suits.

Of course I have no knowledge of that...just a guess.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.

It wouldn't be the first formation they copy-pasted from Apoc into 7e 40k.

Except it isn't. no current tau formation mixes both hammerheads and skyrays.

Tau having WS2 isnt that big of a dock, the fact that they have no melee weapons is more of a problem than their WS.

I still refuse to play without my Gauntlet because of the one time i splatted a Daemon Prince with it. 6th ed rules, he dropped out of the sky and charged my buffmander. Wiffed all except 1 of his S10 AP2 Smash attacked, i 4++'d the last one and Gauntlet'd his face

Riptide's main problem is lack of attacks, so it can be tarpitted. Squads of 3 with Ghostkeels can actually lay in some hurt except against HUGE blobs of models or ones that are significantly more equipped for the job (termies, melee MCs, etc). And Ghostkeels are clearly about evasion since theyre intended to be hard to hit, i wouldnt doubt it if they can still get VRT and not get denied it like riptides.

The drones that come with the Ghostkeel are most likely like the Riptide's shielded missile drones - theyre not MC's, theyre just matching toughness to not eff up the toughness of the model in question. Meaning i'd be surprised if they werent T5 themselves, probably with the typical 4+ armor and no invul considering the other rules they bring instead.
And atleast they dont cost an arm and a leg to bring this time lol. Missile drones on riptides posed more problems than benefits but costing 25pts each didnt help it at ALL

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
The holophoton countermeasures seem to encurage multiple Ghostkeels, since you can fire it from each model one at a time, so a full unit can force snapfire 3 units a game.

No, all three must use their countermeasures at once, they can't reserve their own uses for later.:

Declare that the unit will use the holophotonic countermeasures

You can activate the countermeasures when a model is targeted, but then the whole unit will use theirs whether they want it or not.

This is the line I was referring to.

One ber battle, in the enemy Shooting phase, a model equipped with the holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy units that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to.

The way it is setup is a bit odd.
Probably going to start a YMDC when the WD drops.

By the by, I noticed something in this image.
Look to the rear left of the Ghostkeel. You're looking for a slender spire with a pair of Hammerhead styled railguns on them.

The mounting that they are attached to? That's not the Hammerhead's mount. I think we just got shown a "Vengeance Weapon Battery" styled piece for the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derling wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm now really starting to think that Fire Team is that each Ghostkeel and their attendant drones are counted as a "unit".

I suspect it is some ability to split unit fire. I also suspect it might be a Universal Tau rule applicable to most units, not just these or stealth suits.

Of course I have no knowledge of that...just a guess.

We'll have to wait and see more rules, but it is rather interesting that this "Fire Team" rule was not present on the Stormsurge.

I can understand "Supporting Fire" not being present, but honestly? The more I think about it, the more I think that this might be related to any combination of a Battlesuit and attached Drones.
Kind of a unit within a unit deal.

So the Cyclic Ion Raker doesnt seem that astounding to me. 6 shots is nice and all, but AP4/24" range. How come the Ion Rifle has 30" range but this vastly bigger gun has 24?

That being said, im glad they made the two weapon options viable unlike the Riptide. HBC's are way too risky to use unless you did the buffmander/taudar bullcrap of the last edition, considering its a terrible weapon without nova charge/heavy ML support. Get those, and its infinitely nastier than the IA, dont get it and its virtually useless.
I can easily see a use for both the Ghostkeel's guns. Dumping 3 S8 AP1 blasts sounds nice and juicy, not to mention doubling up with TL Fusions makes this unit capable of ripping vehicles to shreds.

There is one thing about the Raker that bugs me though. Every single Ion Gun's Overcharge is better than its Normal shot with the risk of Gets Hot obviously. The options really are only there for single targets or airborne targets.
Im not sure if i like the Raker's overcharge. I mean, S8 is wonderful to get but AP4 means it wont be reliably killing much, and Gets Hot problems on top of that. Its not bad, but compared to the 6 shots of the normal firing method i dont think its "better" to justify the Gets Hot risk.

I kinda like the Drones' rule. Its a rather unique concept and makes people want to kill those things first instead of the Ghostkeel. More security with more Ghostkeels as well.
Something funny though. Theyre not MC's, so once the Ghostkeels die (if the drones somehow survive afterwords) they can have a commander attach to them and make the commander have stealth + shroud. Unlikely to be useful but interesting thought.
Ive always been a bigger fan of models giving the unit rules rather than the unit just simply having it. Most of the unit-wide rules we get make more sense to me to have a special model give it (any race not just tau)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

I kinda like the Drones' rule. Its a rather unique concept and makes people want to kill those things first instead of the Ghostkeel. More security with more Ghostkeels as well.
Something funny though. Theyre not MC's, so once the Ghostkeels die (if the drones somehow survive afterwords) they can have a commander attach to them and make the commander have stealth + shroud. Unlikely to be useful but interesting thought.

That's assuming Drone rules remain the same.

Drones might be getting altered to be treated as separate models but are part of the Wargear for a Battlesuit.