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 Vineheart01 wrote:
If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.

Or you used a transport.

Can I just bring up a point? Why do they keep making pulse pistol bits but never actually make rules for the stupid things?

Pulse Pistols have had rules before. Of course, I think it was only on a Crisis Suit that used the emergency eject system thing.

I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."

When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.

And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.

Vryce, its the best we have because:

WS2 is not bad unless youre facing dedicated melee units that have WS5+. You still hit on 4s.

A lot of things are I2, and majority of weapons they have to worry about are I1

Theyre MCs, so theyre AP2 and cause Fear which is nothing to scoff at.

Squads of 3 with 3 attacks each base. Thats 12 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge coupled with 12 S3 AP- attacks that may not sound like much but numbers mean more than strength in a lot of cases.

The ghostkeel will beat the snot out of a lot of things. Majority of melee strength or AP is in I1 and rarely at S10 except in the form of a Dreadnaught or melee stars.
They arent perfect, as WS2 is still low as many people point out. But theyre not terrible by any means. I fully intend to have a squad hunt marines and charge them if they survived my barrage of shots.

And all Orks are I2 or I1 because of Powerklaws, yet they are regarded as melee monsters. Init means little unless you are coupling it with a deadly weapon or are hitting something you have high odds of wiping before they strike somehow. Not many things hit really hard outside init1, and those things are easily avoided by a jetpack MC anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.

You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.

You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.

That too.
Though i do know a lot of people that insist on getting within 6" to charge because every time they dont they flop the charge. Same goes for me lol. Only reason ive been doing it beyond 6" with my Orks is because 'Ere We Go! raises their average charge to ~9" which is pretty reliable.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.

You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.

That too.
Though i do know a lot of people that insist on getting within 6" to charge because every time they dont they flop the charge. Same goes for me lol. Only reason ive been doing it beyond 6" with my Orks is because 'Ere We Go! raises their average charge to ~9" which is pretty reliable.

I insist on getting that close on units I KNOW can't wipe my unit out with overwatch. In the case of Jump Infantry, I am getting to reroll charge distance anyway. That is about the only tactically significant bonus of that <5" shot. It makes a person have to charge a bit further back than they normally would, and it doesn't do anything different for stuff with a 2+.

 Vryce wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."

When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.

And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.

There are very easy answers to all of these questions.
For its points the Ghostkeel IS the best assault unit we have if you compare it to anything else in the codex. It's 50-90 points cheaper than a Riptide (depending on how much you kit the latter out) despite retaining the exact same close combat stats. It's not anything special compared to other codices but a Ghostkeel can still defend itself reasonably well in combat and take on smaller non-elite units just fine. As an FYI, WS2 and I2 don't matter when you still hit WS4 (the majority of units in the game are WS4 or less) on a 4+, your Toughness 5 still makes you pretty resistant to those units you want to be charging. It is also Strength 6 just like a Riptide.

The Ghostkeel is not "solid". It's being widely received as a very powerful unit. A unit that has a 2+ cover save in the open, good firepower (the Raker specifically), good mobility and a one-use-only form of Invisibility is extremely good for 130 base points. It's one of the most shooting-resistant units in the game when you consider that aside from Tau Ignores Cover is not that common - if Ignores Cover was as common as naysayers of the Ghostkeel speak of, why are Ravenwing such a top tier army?

Stormsurges do not "suck" as any major tournament player will tell you. The problem here is that you are comparing a fairly balanced unit (the Stormsurge) to a horrendously under-priced unit (the Wraithknight). Fair units like the Stormsurge should be the norm with Wraithknights as the aberrations, hence why comparing the two is silly as there's no GMC in the game aside from the Ta'unar that compares well to a Wraithknight. Once the community begins to realize that the Stormsurge is not actually designed to be a titan-killer (which is just marketing speak) and that it shouldn't be compared to a Wraithknight (which is a product of terrible balancing), they will realize that is a fine but not great or bad unit. It's just a good balanced unit that is arguably the first to fit that criteria for GMCs in the game.

Breachers are a different story altogether. They are entirely dependent on Devilfishes getting buffed or somehow gaining an alternate deployment method as otherwise the unit doesn't function without a good delivery system. If they can get free Devilfishes or Devilfishes drop in points significantly then they will see use as this solves their main problem. Even without Markerlights they tend to make their points back and more the moment they disembark to within 5" and shoot something which is not something you can say for most Troops choices in the game (the obvious exception being Windriders). As for how charging Breachers works, if you are charging them through cover without Fleet/Move Through Cover/some kind of re-roll you need to be 5" away to make it assuming average rolls. They aren't perfect but the fact that 10 of them will one-shot a T6 W5 3+ save monstrous creature for 90 points when firing at 5" without Markerlights or available cover is impressive, and like anything Tau they become godly strong with Markerlights. Again, they are dependent on Devilfishes and possibly on Markerlights as well. If Devilfishes get big buffs, they will be a fine unit, and if Devilfishes stay about the same, you probably won't see them much at all.

I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.

This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.

But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...

I agree, it is a similar story with the Stormsurge's Blastgun if you use it with Storm of Fire from an Ethereal, it kinda breaks down. Half range to get the extra shot plus a variable weapon profile based on range is kind of silly. You can never benefit from the half-range bonus for the 30" profile, you can do the "I choose to use 'X' profile" for the 20" profile, and you need to be within 5" for the 10" profile. Kinda silly.

Speaking of which, I failed a charge with an Imperial Knight from 4" away (not even joking) against a friend using two of these things in a squad earlier today. With Storm of Fire and the Stabilizing Anchors engaged, I had to suffer through twelve Destroyer AP1 shots.....even without any Markerlight hits my Knight still saw his predictable end from a Deathblow. Fun times (not indicative of anything, just a funny story). I still managed to win on objectives at the very least which was amusing, thankfully. The Stormsurges did the most damage of anything on the board which is what you would expect of a 720+ point unit (I think they had Shield Generators) for those wondering.

davethepak wrote:
I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.

This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.

But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...

Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.

Also, using new units with the old codex doesn't work. How do you even know what an Ethereal does now, for example?

Wait until we see the rules, then we can have a real discussion about how Tau play now. Otherwise all we have to go by is first impressions and guesswork. And my first impression is that the three new units are just meh.

I'm not even sure the whole "will get charged" argument is really that big of a downer on the Breachers. If they get unloaded within 5" of something that doesn't have any of; 2+ armor, Toughness 8, good invulnerable saves (4+ or better), they will usually kill what they shoot at regardless of Markerlight support.

Seeing as those barometers encompasses the vast majority of units in the game and 10 Breachers are only 90 points, they have their obvious merits, especially as they are a unit with Objective Secured in a CAD. If you really think about it, what other unit in the game can match 20 Strength 6 AP3 shots or otherwise similar firepower for 90 points? Yes, range and the price of a transport is an issue, but that's what we have the impending codex for.

I'm most definitely intrigued to see what the formations do for Tau, the last few codices with their major detachments/formations have provided a lot of free points (also stretching as far back as AdMech) so it might not be unreasonable to guess Tau might get the same thing regarding Devilfishes. It would make perfect sense as that kit doesn't sell well at all given it has to be ordered in for a lot of GW stores, and if they stay mostly the same a free Devilfish is quite a bit better than a free Razorback for example (better front armour, more firepower with the trade-off of Ballistic Skill 3, being a Skimmer Tank, double the transport capacity, etc).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Also, using new units with the old codex doesn't work. How do you even know what an Ethereal does now, for example?

Wait until we see the rules, then we can have a real discussion about how Tau play now. Otherwise all we have to go by is first impressions and guesswork. And my first impression is that the three new units are just meh.

Using the old codex as a framework to base our impressions of these units around is actually fine when you consider that the actual units/wargear themselves haven't been changing much at all except to get better in the transition from 6th Edition to 7th Edition, at least if you look at post-Necron codices. Generally the power level of the CAD army lists *increases*, while the formations are usually what make the codex stand out competitively. Even if you take the three new units on their own merits, the general consensus from tournament players is that the Ghostkeel is great and the Stormsurge is good or ok (still lots of conjecture on that one). Those two aren't as reliant on other things in the codex to base our early impressions around, whereas Breachers clearly will be codex-dependent; chuck Breachers into any army with cheap or good transports and you will probably see quite a few players use them. As it is, we don't know what a Devilfish/formations will be like in the new codex so we have to wait and see.

Seriously though, if you think a Ghostkeel is "meh" your standards are probably waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.

This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.

But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...

Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.

Thats my point - I am guessing the designers were thinking "this unit is great, you can overatch with it, since in a charge the models get close!" where as the poorly designed rules (it should work that way) say check range.

Or they forgot to give the blasters the "wall of death" or whatever the special rule is for flamers that say range does not matter.

Of course, I also think that models that fail a charge should still move....the fact they just stand there...is dumb....but I diagress.

To those that say "breachers are only 90s points" doing the unload within 5"...they are not. They are 90 points + whatever the cost of the devil fish is. Plus marker lights (if you are counting on bs 3, you are relying on average luck too much - which is a bad tactic).

More slightly on topic - the stormsurge is hitting bit vendors on ebay, so folks who want to do some conversions can take a look.

davethepak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.

This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.

But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...

Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.

Thats my point - I am guessing the designers were thinking "this unit is great, you can overatch with it, since in a charge the models get close!" where as the poorly designed rules (it should work that way) say check range.

Or they forgot to give the blasters the "wall of death" or whatever the special rule is for flamers that say range does not matter.

Of course, I also think that models that fail a charge should still move....the fact they just stand there...is dumb....but I diagress.

To those that say "breachers are only 90s points" doing the unload within 5"...they are not. They are 90 points + whatever the cost of the devil fish is. Plus marker lights (if you are counting on bs 3, you are relying on average luck too much - which is a bad tactic).

More slightly on topic - the stormsurge is hitting bit vendors on ebay, so folks who want to do some conversions can take a look.

Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.

There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.

Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.

You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.

EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!

Caederes wrote:
There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.

Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.

You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.

EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!

Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Caederes wrote:
There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.

Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.

You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.

EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!

Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.

Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.

Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes. As it is, if Devilfishes get good then this unit is terrifying for a lot of armies.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.

Caederes wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Caederes wrote:
There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.

Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.

You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.

EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!

Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.

Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.

Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.

While true, you just added another unit required to get your Breachers to do something useful.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Caederes wrote:
There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.

Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.

You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.

EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!

Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.

Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.

Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.

While true, you just added another unit required to get your Breachers to do something useful.

Your Tactical Marines need a Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback to get anywhere to be useful as Space Marines don't compete at long range with armies like Tau or Eldar. Your Tactical Marines also can't reliably pop transports themselves as on the "drop" you are limited to one combi-weapon and one special weapon, even in the example you listed - assuming good scatter and what-not - a Devilfish can still Jink and easily survive, meaning you need a harder-hitting unit to break the Breachers' transport. Very similar, no? Units don't exist in a vacuum, which is why Breachers will be fine if Devilfishes get buffed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.

Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,

Unless Devilfish (or Breachers themselves) get Deep Strike, or they can get a Devilfish for free or cheap, then they are a sub par unit.

Also, don't forget, the new Tau force detachment will probably require 1+ Breachers Team, so be prepared to buy a new box to build them, regardless if you like them or not. Probably 2+ Strike Teams, 1+ Breachers, 1+ Pathfinders, a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal (probably one of each similar to the battle demi-company to get free transports like for the Marines), and maybe 1+ Piranhas. Oh, and 1+ gun drone squadron. Suits and tanks will be formations.

That's my guess.

Alcibiades wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.

Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,

I brought this up in a previous post. It is a tactically sound approach, since it is going to make chargers have to stay a bit back. But on 2d6, they are going to make their 6" charge 75% of the time(66% of the time for 7"). It gets even worse if they can reroll charge.

vitae_drinker wrote:Unless Devilfish (or Breachers themselves) get Deep Strike, or they can get a Devilfish for free or cheap, then they are a sub par unit.

Also, don't forget, the new Tau force detachment will probably require 1+ Breachers Team, so be prepared to buy a new box to build them, regardless if you like them or not. Probably 2+ Strike Teams, 1+ Breachers, 1+ Pathfinders, a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal (probably one of each similar to the battle demi-company to get free transports like for the Marines), and maybe 1+ Piranhas. Oh, and 1+ gun drone squadron. Suits and tanks will be formations.

That's my guess.

Pretty much this. Though we already know Breachers can't deep strike. The same thing occurred with the Gladius Strike Force (though it does give some flexibility with the Assault and Devastator choices, but those choices aren't cheap money-wise). No matter what, GW wins.

Considering all of that stuff is quite cheap, I don't think too many Tau players will complain. Minimum unit sizes and current costs would put that at 280 minus the Drones which is super cheap compared to most "Core" formations.

As I've said from the start, the Breachers are inherently codex reliant. If my Space Marines could take a 90 point unit that puts out 20 BS3 S6 AP3 shots with Objective Secured in a cheap or free Drop Pod, you'd be damn sure I would take them in a heartbeat. Let's wait and see what the codex does for them before everyone screams over or under powered for once.

Even if your 90 point unit had Tau stats?

Undoubtedly yes. I don't put units in Drop Pods to do light damage and survive, I put units in Drop Pods to murder stuff and generate victory points which with the 11" threat range of 20 S6 AP3 shots on the drop and ObSec the Breachers are definitely good at.

I agree with Caederes.

My space marine tactical squads do have free drop pods (2 demi-companies) and they have staying power, flexibility, but their firepower does not bother my opponents.
S6 AP3 firepower WOULD bother them though, especially with markerlight support.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.

Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,

I brought this up in a previous post. It is a tactically sound approach, since it is going to make chargers have to stay a bit back. But on 2d6, they are going to make their 6" charge 75% of the time(66% of the time for 7"). It gets even worse if they can reroll charge.

34% of the time, the unit will be eliminated on the following turn as the breachers move up .5" and unload. It makes it into more of a gamble.

And if the devilfish will get cheaper, i might actually fielding mine for the first time ever... since the 1st Tau codex.

Because i never liked nor played the combination Devilfish/{Pathfinders or Devilfish/Firewarriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And in regard to the charge gamble: do not forget supporting fire!
If you field 2 of these units or a few Tau units behind them, charging them means supporting fire from all units near them too.

A moving "line" of breachers supported by other Tau units or behind Kroot could be a very effective way to move across and clear a battlefield.