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As I said, it was the Blastcannon stats that got misread. Initially it was thought that the second profile was AP1 and the third profile was AP3, of course as it turned out the numbers were actually AP3 and AP5 respectively.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

I have a few tidbits I thought of while I was sleeping (haha!). The Railgun gaining Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter indicates it is not a Destroyer weapon as we thought it might be. Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

Yeah, we got it, you think the shield rule is OP. Most people on this thread don't seem to agree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
I have a few tidbits I thought of while I was sleeping (haha!). The Railgun gaining Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter indicates it is not a Destroyer weapon as we thought it might be. Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.

1 Iridium per team would be interesting, particularly if its a support vs signature system now.

Or if you could bring a whole team of crisis suits with Iridium... Hmmmmm.....

We shall see. Lol

Quite literally the ONLY thing that makes me think the tidewall isnt garbage is the fact that it can possibly reflect-kill a vehicle. Rest of it is either soso or "its good" - the movement might as well not exist except in scenarios.

Now if it moved like a Skimmer where it went over all terrain including impassible, that would be kinda....busted lol

Caederes wrote:
Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.

I fear it will be one of these items that won't appear in the support system list for all to use but be more like "leader can buy it for XXpts" in the unit entry.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.

Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%

I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.

EDIT: it's less than I though!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.

I actually just realized what this means for Dark Eldar Venoms, heck Dark Eldar in general. Take Aun'va, abuse Go-to-Ground-and-get-back-up shenanigans to watch the Dark Eldar army literally kill itself.

jakejackjake wrote:
Necrons are not one of the top three armies by the way

Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite literally the ONLY thing that makes me think the tidewall isnt garbage is the fact that it can possibly reflect-kill a vehicle. Rest of it is either soso or "its good" - the movement might as well not exist except in scenarios.

Now if it moved like a Skimmer where it went over all terrain including impassible, that would be kinda....busted lol

Yeah, exactly. In most cases, the movement is going to be useless (but floating is just plain cool). Almost everything is mediocre except the reflect thing, which is has oodles of potential, but totally beyond the Tau player's control.

If someone is in a vehicle and shoots at a model behind the glowing blue force field with a weapon that allows cover saves, there's a 16.7% chance that the glowy force field will absorb the shot and reflect it back. So if you're the commander, you make a call: do you roll the dice and shoot at the protected model, or do you shoot at something else? When it reflects back, it's only a wound or a glance anyways. So in some cases, maybe it's worth the risk; in other cases it's not. In either case, it's up to the attacker... so I don't think that this can be construed as some kind of "ZOMG IWIN" power.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.

I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.

To be fair, if I had to say what "armies" - i.e. factions - are in the top three, it would be Armies of the Imperium, Eldar and Daemons IMO.

If someone seriously suggests that Necrons are weak though or that competitive armies have no trouble with them then they are out of their minds however, there's a reason Canoptek Wraiths are pretty widely considered the best assault unit in any codex.

Actually what I think is worst case is a land raider crusader somehow killing itself with its 18 bolter shots. Not to mention assault cannon and melta. Or at least doing 2 or 3 HP to itself.

Unless I'm misremembering Hurricane Bolters are six shots per sponson when rapid-firing, meaning a Crusader fires twelve bolter shots, four assault cannon shots, one melta shot (if given that upgrade). Considering all but the last gun are twin-linked and none of them have Ignores Cover, there's a good chance that it will lose 1-2 hull points each time it shoots.

Honestly the most silly interaction is with Large Blasts.

Sorry, used to my centurions hurricane bolters so much now I forgot they have more shots in a group of 3.

 Talys wrote:
I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.

But that doesn't make any sense. If the wall is capable of adding vastly disproportionate amounts of power to an attack and directing it at the firing unit then why does it need to be triggered by incoming fire? If it can turn an exploding bolter shell from a LR Crusader into an automatic glance against AV 14 then why can't the wall just fire some of those shots at the Land Raider without waiting to get hit? Or let's say a Wyvern shoots at it from halfway across the table and behind LOS-blocking terrain, now you're lobbing "reflected" shots back with even more strength added. So if you've got this anti-armor mortar built into the wall then why can't I just shoot it normally?

The real answer is that it's an idiotic rule, and it should have been something like this instead:

Every time a unit behind the wall passes a cover save roll a D6. On a 6 the closest unit (on the same side as the wall as the firing unit) within 12" and LOS of the wall suffers a hit with the strength and AP of the one that was saved. If no appropriate unit exists to suffer the hit then it is simply lost.

There, now you aren't glancing Land Raiders to death with reflected bolter fire or turning a defensive wall into an improvised mortar. But unfortunately GW's rule authors are incompetent morons, and we're stuck with inexcusably broken execution of a decent concept.

Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Problem solved!

Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.

So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; it's battlefield control.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.

Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%

I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.

EDIT: it's less than I though!

Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.

That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).

That's pretty significant.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Problem solved!

Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.

So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.

You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?

vitae_drinker wrote:
Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Obviously you can counter the wall if all you care about is winning games. The point is that it's a stupid rule that makes no sense fluff-wise, and only works that way because GW's rule authors are idiots.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.

But that doesn't make any sense. If the wall is capable of adding vastly disproportionate amounts of power to an attack and directing it at the firing unit then why does it need to be triggered by incoming fire? If it can turn an exploding bolter shell from a LR Crusader into an automatic glance against AV 14 then why can't the wall just fire some of those shots at the Land Raider without waiting to get hit? Or let's say a Wyvern shoots at it from halfway across the table and behind LOS-blocking terrain, now you're lobbing "reflected" shots back with even more strength added. So if you've got this anti-armor mortar built into the wall then why can't I just shoot it normally?

The real answer is that it's an idiotic rule, and it should have been something like this instead:

Every time a unit behind the wall passes a cover save roll a D6. On a 6 the closest unit (on the same side as the wall as the firing unit) within 12" and LOS of the wall suffers a hit with the strength and AP of the one that was saved. If no appropriate unit exists to suffer the hit then it is simply lost.

There, now you aren't glancing Land Raiders to death with reflected bolter fire or turning a defensive wall into an improvised mortar. But unfortunately GW's rule authors are incompetent morons, and we're stuck with inexcusably broken execution of a decent concept.

Eh, 12" is a bit short. I went for 36".

 Bulldogging wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.

Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%

I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.

EDIT: it's less than I though!

Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.

That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).

That's pretty significant.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Problem solved!

Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.

So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.

You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?

My math doesn't match up with yours because I didn't use GtG.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.

IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.

Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.

Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%

I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.

EDIT: it's less than I though!

Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.

That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).

That's pretty significant.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Problem solved!

Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.

So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.

You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?

And gets stopped by a bush? I don't see your point, honestly.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Eh, 12" is a bit short. I went for 36".

Even 12" is rather generous, I was thinking 6" originally. At 36" it just doesn't make any sense, you're almost certainly reflecting shots back through other terrain/intervening units/etc, and potentially sending a shot farther than its normal range (for example, a 24" bolter shot traveling another 24" back to the firing unit when it can't shoot from 48"). And really, if this is supposed to represent shots bouncing off then it should be a close-range hazard since the deflection would be completely random and likely to end up in the dirt instead of hitting a target that isn't standing right next to the wall.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Eh, 12" is a bit short. I went for 36".

Even 12" is rather generous, I was thinking 6" originally. At 36" it just doesn't make any sense, you're almost certainly reflecting shots back through other terrain/intervening units/etc, and potentially sending a shot farther than its normal range (for example, a 24" bolter shot traveling another 24" back to the firing unit when it can't shoot from 48"). And really, if this is supposed to represent shots bouncing off then it should be a close-range hazard since the deflection would be completely random and likely to end up in the dirt instead of hitting a target that isn't standing right next to the wall.

Were talking game mechanics here, not reality. Although, how I did it was hit the same unit, but only if that unit is within 36", and LOS of the wall (to protect barrage).

 Peregrine wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Well, don't shoot at the zappy field.

Obviously you can counter the wall if all you care about is winning games. The point is that it's a stupid rule that makes no sense fluff-wise, and only works that way because GW's rule authors are idiots.

Tell us what you REALLY think. Don't hold back.

Full release list.
Looks like even Drones get their own box.

Considering drones can be taken in squads on their own (or atleast right now they can if that gets removed) it makes sense to sell drones on their own.

Not to mention afaik only drone you can make multiples of per box is Gun Drones.

I might want to grab that GHost keel edition, that would be my first collectors editon codexs. Still iritated that the space wolf wolf guard one was 250, only reason why i passed it. if its above 200+ it better come with an exclusive miniature.


SO ghost keel is

180 USD

1500 limited quantities

Anyone know if they made stealth suits troops? That would be sweet. I know they were the starting tau unit in dawn of war.

Doubtful, but would be awesome as hell.

Being in the Elites is one of the downfalls of Stealth Suits. Cost being the other obviously....but my main peeve with'm is i dont want bursts and fusions in the same damn squad and have no other options.