Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.

Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination

There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.

Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.

Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.

If you're getting wiped out during overwatch, then you're either supremely unlucky and the Tau player rolled extremely well, or you charged with too few models.

vitae_drinker wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.

Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination

There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.

Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.

Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.

If you're getting wiped out during overwatch, then you're either supremely unlucky and the Tau player rolled extremely well, or you charged with too few models.

Supporting Fire and Snap Shot manipulation make it hard. Still, a unit of Death Company or my Dante Sanguinary Star will get there to wreck face. They just won't be shooting at stuff first.

 mazik765 wrote:
I love reading this thread because it seems every page it flips from "tau are op because of the tidelwall!" to "tau are useless because 80pt devilfish!". Make up your mind

Pfft. Every unit should is too cheap unless I'm fielding them, in which case they are all way overcosted. =]

So far, Tau look good. The thing is, we haven't seen the Secret Sauce. What are the squad and formation bonuses... I mean, these will make or break the faction. I await the Codex [leaks] with baited breath!!

Overwatch is only once per turn (except for longstrike). Therefore, set up multiple charges. Make the Tau player decide on who (if any) he can stop. It isn't rocket science.

It's like the people bitching about the low chance for a landraider to bolter itself to death. If that's a real problem for you in a game, then it's because you got outplayed. Same thing if overwatch destroys your only chance to win. You already lost if you're relying on a suicide charge to win.

davethepak wrote:
The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?

The prices on the new things are just bad business.

The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.

Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.

With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.

I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.

My friends and I stopped giving our money to Games-Workshop a long time ago and their exorbitant prices prevented by girl from getting into the hobby as well. I'll check out the new stuff, but I'm not going to buy any of it until I have an insane disposable income, but by that time, I might as well just buy the company and make the changes that need to be made myself.

i don't know if it's been brought up. but GW will be re-releasing the Tidewall rampart on 31st October, but in its constituent parts so shield wall, rail turret and droneport. They should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
i don't know if it's been brought up. but GW will be re-releasing the Tidewall rampart on 31st October, but in its constituent parts so shield wall, rail turret and droneport. They should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.

Well, they are fething morons, so I'm not surprised...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
iThey should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.

Yeah, but if they keep the bundle up then you might be able to guess which new releases are "BUY NOW OR NEVER" limited editions and which ones are just bundles you'll be able to buy at any time. And that might lead to people deciding to wait and see instead of immediately buying every new release as soon as it hits the website, just because there was a rumor that it's a limited-edition thing.

(Plus, the price will probably go up. Not because the bundle actually saved you money, but because weekly price increases are a great idea! Buy within the next 15 minutes or pay 10% more!)

I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.

At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.

So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.

maceria wrote:
I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.

At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.

So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.

You got a deal sir, I'll take five of your finest Crisis Suits for that price D:

maceria wrote:
I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.

At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.

So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.

I was all ready to decry you asking for Devilfish costing 35pts, but then I realized you were being facetious. Poe's Law strikes again!

How would a Str D melta work anyway? Would you get 2 rolls on the D table, picking the best? The mind boggles.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Devilfish is fairly costed for what it offers. I do wish we had a cheaper transport, but I'd rather they create a worse transport (eg. without AV12 on the front, not a skimmer, etc etc) and kept the Devilfish the same.

I agree honestly. Devilfish is a solid transport. I wouldn't lower its cost, I think giving it "Fast" would be a more appropriate way to improve it without breaking.

Bringing back our old vehicle systems would also be nice. Being able move 12" and fire your SMS and BC ad different targets was pretty awesome.

Then again, that piece of wargear let you move 12" and fire the railgun, or move 6" and fire the railgun and your 2 different BC and three different targets. It was awesome.

Lastly, never take anything I say seriously: I'm on the internet.

I like the Devilfish as it is, but I wish it would get a price reduction, even if it means it would be nerfed.

That's not to say I think it's bad, as even at its cost I could see taking it for a Breacher unit. Maybe if we get a Breacher formation that shaves points off of the Devilfish to make them exceptionally competitive, despite their minor weaknesses, since they're not exactly a bad unit as is, they're simply very niche.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


How would a Str D melta work anyway? Would you get 2 rolls on the D table, picking the best? The mind boggles.

Well you see the double D, it involves you and a friend and then....

The biggest problem imho with the dfish is that even though it is 'more survivable' than say a rhino or a trukk, its still almost guaranteed to die if you actually use it for what transports are normally used (getting stuff across the field). Its still only AV10 on the rear and you cant jink vs assault so anything with a power weapon simply kills it, and then you have nice and expensive fireworks. Likewise it will have a hard time actually helping with holding an objective, because of the same vulnerability, and while it might have better firepower than a rhino, its not like 3 shots from a BC and 2 from drones are really likely to kill a lot (granted the SMS is better, but those cost points, making it even more expensive, even forgetting the pretty much mandatory dpod which is 15 points now a days).

I don't see a unit having strength and weaknesses as a bad thing

 McNinja wrote:

- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$

Games Workshop can go feth themselves.

Well here in the UK I'm pretty sure Crisis Suits were already £45 for 3, or £15.50 each if you bought the individual packs (which made the boxes of 3 an actual price reduction of £1.50! )

£30 for a generic commander? Yeah no, GW. I've managed to build all of the crisis and broadside members of Farsights Eight without buying your Commander model or new broadside model, I'm sure I'll continue to manage.

And on the 2 Drones for £7.70... If GW think they're going to sell those without stripping all of the drones from every other kit then that is just a waste of packaging as nobody will buy that. Though I can see GW doing exactly that.

Instead of that 2 Drone pack they could've released a Devilfish weapon pack containing two pairs of SMS turrets to replace the gun drones on the Devilfish. People would've actually bought that if they wanted to use Devilfish.

Honestly I kinda wish they had done 6 crisis suits for $100. Still crazy, and at triple digits it's going to make lots of people coming into the store go "WTF?!" and run the other way, but if you want a lot of them it works out cheaper that way, at least.

$75 for three is more about what I expected. It's only $10 more than the old ones and they're better in just about every way. It's still really expensive, I know, but it could have been a lot worse. $50 commander is insane, but at least it's not fething Finecast anymore...that still better be an amazing kit, though.

$12 for two drones? lmao

 Sidstyler wrote:
Honestly I kinda wish they had done 6 crisis suits for $100. Still crazy, and at triple digits it's going to make lots of people coming into the store go "WTF?!" and run the other way, but if you want a lot of them it works out cheaper that way, at least.

$75 for three is more about what I expected. It's only $10 more than the old ones and they're better in just about every way. It's still really expensive, I know, but it could have been a lot worse. $50 commander is insane, but at least it's not fething Finecast anymore...that still better be an amazing kit, though.

$12 for two drones? lmao

Unfortunately, no matter how amazing the commander kit is, you won't be getting your money's worth. It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

 McNinja wrote:

It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.

GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.

 McNinja wrote:
It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

I think $50 is kinda high for the commander, but at the price you're suggesting you'd just be buying a box of plastic pellets instead of a batltesuit. You'd be hard-pressed to find any product that's sold for the raw material cost.

Ushtarador wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.

GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.

Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.

GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.

 McNinja wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.

GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.

Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.

GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.

$400? It cost $322, with free two day shipping.
You also forget the ~15" tall robot can also transform. And is snap together so it doesn't need glue. And is cast in the correct colors so you don't need to paint it.
Ya, so long as Bandai Japan and Gunpla exists, the best plastic miniatures will be solidly in the hands of Bandai.

Edit: I'll be honest, it is sad when I can buy a gold or silver plated Gundam model for less than a Riptide. I do enjoy 40k, but their business practice needs to be rebuilt, they simply haven't been investing in expanding the market. Gunpla can be sold closer to cost due to the fact it has a much bigger market so they don't need to squeeze their consumers to recoup their development cost. What GW is doing isn't acting like a good buisness, at best it is damage control. At worst it is holding off the enviable.

Ushtarador wrote:
GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing.

Actually I can. Sloppy fit between parts (good for letting kids assemble a kit without precise alignment, but it means lots of cleanup work to get it to look decent), large minimum feature sizes, questionable aesthetic choices (Taurox anyone?), use of "skulls per square inch" as a cheap substitute for real detail, etc. GW makes decent game pieces but they're really not that impressive. Take away the rules and the fluff behind those kits and hardly anyone would buy them.

No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.

But they really do. High-end historical model kits have far better detail at equal or lower prices. Take a look at what non-gaming companies do with injection-molded plastic and GW doesn't look nearly as impressive.

The truth is that GW is decent for the tabletop gaming niche, and even then they're nothing spectacular in terms of pure quality. Other companies have equal or better infantry, and GW's advantage in vehicle diversity is mostly due to the fact that vehicles don't work very well at 28mm scale from a rules perspective so few other companies are willing to invest in the big kits. This would be a fine approach if GW acknowledged that they sell game pieces for a tabletop game and focused on providing a decent gaming product at a competitive price, but that's not what they're doing.

While this is a fascinating discussion, could we go back on topic to Tau N&R? The GW rants have been done to death and beyond already...

McNinja wrote:
Unfortunately, no matter how amazing the commander kit is, you won't be getting your money's worth. It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.

Surely you can see how hyperbolic this statement is? Do you rate all things in your life based on the cost of raw materials?

McNinja wrote:
Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.

GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.

Then buy Gundam models.

Look I understand criticism, and Games-Workshop certainly has opened themselves to many legitimate criticism. But with hyperbole and nonsense like this you only detract from legitimate concerns that the community has. I absolutely agree that GWs miniature are overpriced, but the comparisons you are making are ludicrous.

Bottom-line: if you want to buy Gundams, then go buy Gundams. They are great models, no one is stopping you, and if that is what makes you happy then knock yourself out.

I'm confident that your life is good enough that you have more entertaining things to do with your day than yell and scream about a company that you yourself claimed you don't support.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
TL;DR

This:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
While this is a fascinating discussion, could we go back on topic to Tau N&R? The GW rants have been done to death and beyond already...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
While this is a fascinating discussion, could we go back on topic to Tau N&R? The GW rants have been done to death and beyond already...

thanks

The drone price is crazy and they better have all the options available - marker, shield, missile and gun... If that's not the case noone will buy that.

As for the rest of the prices, I still can't get why you don't receive a discount when buying a set of 3 crisis suits and so on. Seriously, even I would be inclined to order from GW then, but since that's not the case I hunt for second-hand unassembled minis or buy from retailers.

cheers
Kahnawake

My rampant speculation about what the formations do:

Armoured Interdiction Cadre: Free markerlight hits, can put damage results off the skyray onto a hammerhead if you want.

- in addition taking the 3 hammerheads in a squadron will give them some kind of combined attack much like the predator/vindicator SM squadrons

Optimised Stealth Cadre: Ghostkeel can cover the stealth suits with its holophoton countermeasures, stealth suits get the double bonus to cover if they're within 6" of the Ghostkeel

Heavy Retribution Cadre: Stormsurges get free markerlight hits or Ignores Cover if their target is within a formation Ghostkeel's line of sight.


Other formations I expect to see:

Some kind of demi-company/Reclamation Legion equivalent with the standard 2-4 basic troops, 1-3 specialised troops, 0-3 more elite things, and some seemingly random addition made to boost lagging sales of the kit (most likely a piranha).

A flyer formation with 2 fighters and a bomber.

A kroot hunting pack (a selection of kroot warriors, kroot hounds, krootox, and shapers).

Overall formation benefits: Ability to consolidate d6" back in the assault phase for all units (obvs jet pack units have an inherently better version of this standard), maybe something to do with markerlights.

Anyone else have any RAMPANT SPECULATION?

I fielded the Ghostkeel XV95 suits in a game vs CSM last night. His list was a pretty well rounded one, but as a result lacked focus. The Ghostkeels performed as you might expect them to - their ridiculous cover save kept him from even attempting to fire at them, except once. The ion rakers peppered his T3 cultists and AV12 walkers, with fusion blasters mopping up. I like having the drones in the unit - they dont' do anything in the shooting phase, but the added footprint allowed me to chain the unit towards an objective, while still leaving my ghostkeels in position to fire before the assault thrust. The unit cost 320 points after upgrades (TL fusion blaster, stims, and VRTs), but i feel it was well worth the points given it's survivability and damage output. Based on strictly the 1 game i've played, i'd rate it an overall 8/10.

Overall formation bennifets: improved overwatch.