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Caederes wrote:
The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.

Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).

Thoughts?

He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?

If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.

So squads of drones as troops are back?

That's pretty neat.

 Medium of Death wrote:
So squads of drones as troops are back?

That's pretty neat.

They've never been gone?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
So squads of drones as troops are back?

That's pretty neat.

They've never been gone?

I thought they were gone in the last codex?

It just lists Firewarriors and Kroot

EDIT

Ah they were fast attack.

Was that always the case though?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
So squads of drones as troops are back?

That's pretty neat.

They've never been gone?

Troops, Kan. Troops. Not fast attack.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
So squads of drones as troops are back?

That's pretty neat.

They've never been gone?

Troops, Kan. Troops. Not fast attack.

They've been Fast Attack since Codex: Tau.

Yeah just checked through.

For some reason I thought they were troops in the first codex.

Never mind.

 Medium of Death wrote:

Ah they were fast attack.

Was that always the case though?

Since the very beginning, yes.

It's worth mentioning that I don't think we're going to get Gun Drone Squadrons as Troops.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They've been Fast Attack since Codex: Tau.

I know but your post wasn't clear. I thought you were saying they were troops currently. Sorry.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

Grav cannons being made available is broadly analogous to FW squads getting access to the new drone turret. I fully expect Hammerheads and Skyrays to become squadronable as well, hopefully with some kind of D-related benefit.

So in terms of what we've 'missed out on', it's really just slight points adjustments (up or down), condensing of unit options (no MoF but 2W techies), possibly slight statline adjustments?

In a very profound way I think this actually worked out really well. Sure, there are things I wanted to change with the new book (devilfish being less points, Vespid being rejigged, Iridium being a support system), but there were also a lot of things I didn't want them to change.

I didn't want markerlights to change, I didn't want Supporting Fire to change, I didn't want Crisis suits to be more expensive or have Farsight Enclaves invalidated, there's a lot more.

When you open the door to massive changes, those changes can be both positive and negative. If we had the points for Devilfish revised, we could've also had Commanders go up to 100pts or markerlights become far worse than they are. Hell, we could've had Robin Cruddace be the one doing the majority of the work on our codex, can you imagine how awful that might've been?

This way, we get to keep everything in our codex that's good and works PLUS getting a bunch of new units and a Decurion-esque detachment + accompanying Formations. We didn't need to sacrifice anything in the codex to get those benefits.

Look at Orks as a counter example: When their new book was on the horizon, I was really hyped because I thought it'd improve a lot of things. Instead, it ripped the guts out of the army, changed things that never needed to be changed, and (arguably) alienated a large portion of the Ork playerbase. This Tau release could've been exactly the same, but instead they adopted the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality.

But the Tau release WAS the same - the previous one. It completely destroyed my army and made the units I loved essentially unplayable without fixing any of those units which did not work in the previous book.

The point is that Tau NEEDED a total rewrite because the 6th edition book was horrible in many respects (except the overall power level). Now, it seems we are not going to get that. Colour me very disappointed.

Yes, I will take Cruddace as a Codex writer over Vetock in a heartbeat. Vetock ruined BOTH of my armies in 6th edition. I don't want him to touch anything I own with 10 metre pole.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Caederes wrote:
The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.

Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).

Thoughts?

He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?

If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.

All of the Core formations we've seen so far have featured units from other slots than Troops but none of them have ever been moved to the Troops slot on the webstore to my knowledge. This says to me the Fireblade is getting a FoC swap....which would mean that there are changes to the units. Honestly though I'm just holding out hope.

This part isn't directed at anyone in particular; I think some people are missing the point with regards to why a lot of people are complaining about the lack of codex changes. The point is not that the competitive status of the army will weaken or stay the same; it will only get better because of the numerous additions (detachment, formations, new units, etc), meaning the army will still be much closer to being top tier than the majority of other codices in the game and thus still in a good place with regards to tournaments while receiving potentially massive boosts. The big problem is that it means that unless you want to buy new units or the formations significantly change the way the army plays - which they usually do, to be fair - there's no real "excitement" to be had with the new codex. Remember how much we were gushing when Dreadnoughts were given Chapter Tactics and 4 Attacks base? Sure, in the long run it doesn't make them super competitive as we might hope but it was still a really cool change that everyone adored. Heck, what about when all of the Eldar Aspect Warriors became super duper good and actually started to match their fluff with all their crazy unique special rules; all of my Eldar-playing friends and everyone I read about online was jumping for joy when that happened. Stuff like that is what makes most players get really excited for a codex as they get to experiment with so many new ways to play the army. Keeping all of the units the same even with the formations/detachment....won't really change the way the army still plays, nor will the rumoured "doubled Markerlight" thing fix the issues we have with the codex. There's some major internal balance issues that I doubt formations can straight up fix, namely that there is a handful of garbage units, a lot of decent units, and a lot of over-powered units (at least in the context of the codex itself). Markerlights are still imbalanced against most armies (i.e. Tyranids, Ravenwing) and nigh useless against others (death-stars) and the doubling up will only make that disparity even more apparent, though at the very least it will kind of help them to put a bit more of a dent into a death-star.

Not a Tau player myself but I really understand the frustrations of many players. Again, the army is only going to get better, but unless they get lots of really cool unit-specific buffs from the formations then the competitive builds will basically become "whatever you took last codex, plus the new units, reorganized into this detachment and formations". That might have worked for Space Marines because the entirety of that codex has solid rules, but for an army with wildly schizophrenic internal balance like Tau? Not a good idea, at all, and a slap in the face to Tau players considering how much every 7th Edition army has changed (whether for better or worse).

Of course, I have to point out that this is still an unknown and we might be kicking up a storm over nothing, as the Fireblade moving to Troops would certainly suggest there are going to be changes. If it does end up being the case, it will suck big time, but I'm guessing the players that were really happy with the current codex will be partly satisfied (even they would probably like something different).

 agnosto wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.

I think he means they fall into the "Fast Attack" category of the FOC, not that they have the "Fast" vehicle special rule.

hokieseas wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.

I think he means they fall into the "Fast Attack" category of the FOC, not that they have the "Fast" vehicle special rule.

I think they understand, what this does is allow Kroot and other units to take Devilfishes without having to "hijack" them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly I think Tau players would be ok with the current codex if you gave meaningful buffs to Vespid/Sniper Drones/Devilfishes/Hammerheads. The latter two of those aren't bad units but to say their popularity nose-dived with the 6th Edition codex would be an understatement. The current codex encourages static play that is against the spirit of the faction fluff-wise which is a big problem, not to mention the book lacks variety with its competitive builds (something all of the Necron and post Necron books don't suffer from).

While I do I trust the intent of the rumor posters and German WD translators etc...

I'm not sure I trust this whole "Get the New tau rules in the Codex OR the Campaign book".
-I'm not sure I trust that regardless of verbage in a WD article that the rules provided in the Campaign book will be comprehensive.
-I certainly don't trust that GW will be able to keep these two versions of the rules completely in sync. I don't expect GW to reproduce the entire Tau army list/rules verbatim into what is a campaign book for what is a small portion of Tau background history. that means they will provide rules in a different fashion. This has a strong likelihood of creating disparity between the two books rulewise.

We know the rules for existing units have changed somewhat. Fire Warriors gained a the DS8 turret option. they are unlikely to post an entire entry for Fire warior Strike teams for page space purposes if the only thing that changes is a single option point, so it means this option will likely be provided in a different format than is the codex. The formatting of rules plays nearly as distinct a hand in rules interpretation as the words themselves. (as formatting is a form of punctuation, which can dynamically change the means of the word they govern.)

This makes me a bit antsy. It won't affect me personally, but it just seems to introduce unnecessary risks into the total rule-base.

 warboss wrote:
Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right?

GREAT advice. thanks! You forget those things exist sometimes.

I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.

Or it just means that they put things in weird places when they start shuffling around before a new batch of releases.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or it just means that they put things in weird places when they start shuffling around before a new batch of releases.

I don't recall them doing it to any other unit recently...

I don't like those rumoured Contingent benefits. They're too linked to markerlights. After you lose all your ML sources, they become moot.

I was pretty excited by this release back in September... now I'm disappointed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and DA all had pretty big changes in their line... we get new formations (they too), tactical cards (they too), our warlord traits are the same (I can't stand 1-use WTs) and, worst of all, most statlines are the same. GAAH! Feck GW.

I bet there will be Tactical Objectives involving Assault Phase or Fear tests.

 agnosto wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.

Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.

There's no reason for Hammerheads to become Fast Attack.

Hammerheads wouldnt be fast attack. That makes no sense.

However since pretty much everything is going to squadrons i wouldnt doubt it if riptides, hammerheads, and skyrays became available in 3s.

There were two tactical objectives previewed in the WD - one gave you a VP if a unit in your deployment zone destroyed an enemy unit that turn.

Re: the markerlight thing, I'm honestly doubting the rumour too, but because it'd be just far too good.

Essentially bringing the same markerlight saturation you have now would give you twice the coverage, which either means you have far more than you need or you can afford to bring half the number of markerlights and still be at the same level.

That plus the ability for regular units to get what is for all intents and purposes networked markerlights, which will synergize particularly well with Supporting Fire. Suddenly that single marker drone and the markerlight on the Shas'Ui have the potential to increase the potency of their unit's overwatch immensely.

The only thing that makes me think the rumour is true is that it follows the pattern of the other army detachment special rules, because it ties in with a key facet of the army. Necrons have RP - detachment makes RP better, SM have Combat Doctrines - detachment gives them multiple uses, etc etc.

Markerlights are entirely unique to Tau, they're intrinsic to the army, the entire list is based around them. Having a detachment special rule that keys into that unique aspect and enhances it seems likely.

Caederes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Caederes wrote:
The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.

Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).

Thoughts?

He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?

If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.

All of the Core formations we've seen so far have featured units from other slots than Troops but none of them have ever been moved to the Troops slot on the webstore to my knowledge. This says to me the Fireblade is getting a FoC swap....which would mean that there are changes to the units. Honestly though I'm just holding out hope.

This part isn't directed at anyone in particular; I think some people are missing the point with regards to why a lot of people are complaining about the lack of codex changes. The point is not that the competitive status of the army will weaken or stay the same; it will only get better because of the numerous additions (detachment, formations, new units, etc), meaning the army will still be much closer to being top tier than the majority of other codices in the game and thus still in a good place with regards to tournaments while receiving potentially massive boosts. The big problem is that it means that unless you want to buy new units or the formations significantly change the way the army plays - which they usually do, to be fair - there's no real "excitement" to be had with the new codex. Remember how much we were gushing when Dreadnoughts were given Chapter Tactics and 4 Attacks base? Sure, in the long run it doesn't make them super competitive as we might hope but it was still a really cool change that everyone adored. Heck, what about when all of the Eldar Aspect Warriors became super duper good and actually started to match their fluff with all their crazy unique special rules; all of my Eldar-playing friends and everyone I read about online was jumping for joy when that happened. Stuff like that is what makes most players get really excited for a codex as they get to experiment with so many new ways to play the army. Keeping all of the units the same even with the formations/detachment....won't really change the way the army still plays, nor will the rumoured "doubled Markerlight" thing fix the issues we have with the codex. There's some major internal balance issues that I doubt formations can straight up fix, namely that there is a handful of garbage units, a lot of decent units, and a lot of over-powered units (at least in the context of the codex itself). Markerlights are still imbalanced against most armies (i.e. Tyranids, Ravenwing) and nigh useless against others (death-stars) and the doubling up will only make that disparity even more apparent, though at the very least it will kind of help them to put a bit more of a dent into a death-star.

Not a Tau player myself but I really understand the frustrations of many players. Again, the army is only going to get better, but unless they get lots of really cool unit-specific buffs from the formations then the competitive builds will basically become "whatever you took last codex, plus the new units, reorganized into this detachment and formations". That might have worked for Space Marines because the entirety of that codex has solid rules, but for an army with wildly schizophrenic internal balance like Tau? Not a good idea, at all, and a slap in the face to Tau players considering how much every 7th Edition army has changed (whether for better or worse).

Of course, I have to point out that this is still an unknown and we might be kicking up a storm over nothing, as the Fireblade moving to Troops would certainly suggest there are going to be changes. If it does end up being the case, it will suck big time, but I'm guessing the players that were really happy with the current codex will be partly satisfied (even they would probably like something different).

THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

Thanks for putting it in words. I may use this line of thinking elsewhere.

Additionally, Eldar got the guaranteed 6" Run moves army-wide. Dark Angels are the outlier as far as I can tell; they get full Ballistic Skill Overwatch, but unless I'm mistaken the whole improved Overwatch thing for Dark Angels only appeared in the 7th Edition codex. Tau could be another army to buck that trend.

Personally, I think a +1 Ballistic Skill bonus to all units in the detachment would be cooler. It has the same effect of requiring less Markerlights while simultaneously providing a huge buff to all units in the army rather than being a buff specific to certain elements of the army. As Vector Strike pointed out giving mega-buffs to Markerlights alone would mean that killing the source of the Markerlights would make the army then play as normal from then on, unlike any of the other unique detachments who have permanent army-wide bonuses.

I think giving us a blanket +1 BS considering we have markerlights would be a bit insane.

One could argue it removes the requirement for markerlights and you can bring more firepower. But on the same token, you can make your current list absolutely nasty by making everyone BS5 with a single mark and not feel like youre trading BS for ignores cover benefits.

I'm not sure what other detachment bonus you could reasonably give Tau though. The Overwatch bonus is already locked down by Dark Angels and so far none of the codices have shared detachment bonuses. It would be really strong, sure, but it's better than anything else I can think of.

What about free Drones for everyone? Too strong as well?

 Vector Strike wrote:


There's no reason for Hammerheads to become Fast Attack.

Yeah, I think that I only saw what I wanted to and thought it meant that they were 'fast' which I would love devilfish and hammerheads to be. My mistake.

Caederes wrote:
I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.

I really liked your piece; it definitely got an Exalt from me.

Not to dismiss what Dr. Delorean has done, but I think it's important to wait for the full codex to come out. All the spoilers we have had so far, while very credible, are only from the White Dwarf and the campaign book. The full Tau Empire codex may have important changes to special rules and wargear that weren't previewed in the White Dwarf.

EDIT: As far as the rumored detachment benefits for Tau, I'm okay wiht them. Getting double Markerlights is one way to solve the problem of not having enough efficiency for Markerlight saturation, and the ability to pay double for a unit to have them basically Networked makes them even better. We will have to see once the full codex is released if the rules for Markerlights themselves change or not.

Caederes wrote:
I'm not sure what other detachment bonus you could reasonably give Tau though. The Overwatch bonus is already locked down by Dark Angels and so far none of the codices have shared detachment bonuses. It would be really strong, sure, but it's better than anything else I can think of.

What about free Drones for everyone? Too strong as well?

Reserve Manipulation - Deep Strike units (bar Flyers) can come turn 1. Positional Relay gives +1 to reserve rolls (non-stackable) to outflanking units

Kauyon - For each unit with Infiltrate in this detachment, another unit in the detachment gets scout. Gargantuan/Super-heavies cannot benefit from those.

Mont'ka - For each markerlight removed from a unit, the shooting unit can add +1S instead of +1BS, up to S10 and maximum +2S

Drone Improved Programming - each drone in this detachment becomes BS3 and auto-pass Look Out, Sir! rolls

===

Doubling markerlights and letting ML units use theirs for double the cost ins't very creative.