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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

This tactic was very effective at forcing Battlefront to address issues in the Dust KS.

Do you have any citation you can offer that the chargebacks were in any way effective in bringing about the resolution with BF/Dust?

You're asking for an official press release from BF that their credit was impacted by customer chargebacks, and that they therefore agreed to honor the commitments that they had neglected? Is that what you're asking for?

We read the same things. As I read it, nothing happened until after DS started pushing CC chargebacks as a tactic.

I'm not really wanting to push this more off-topic; I just wanted to see if you had read something somewhere else that would indicate it's a workable tactic to get results from an intransigent company. The thread on Dakka indicates Dust started asking folks to look into chargebacks at the end of January. Could be that it took a long time for people to actually do it and for the aggregate effect to build, but that still seems like a significant amount of time before anything happened there and the timing of the resolution seemed much more coincidental to BF's refund offer to backers than it did to the advice to pursue remedy with the CC companies.

However, processes do take time so it could be that similar to Palladium's own glacial pace, the CC companies just took a while to investigate and it all came to a head at the same time by pure coincidence. If that's the case then a similar burn period would mean that PB would get the notice sometime in November, meaning they might make mention of hearing about it about this time next year?

I agree that these things take some time, but it's all relative, right?

3-4 months with an actual resolution isn't immediate.

However, right now, it's nothing but empty promises after a full year has passed since the last actual delivery, which itself was extended out over many months.

And those few months are certainly faster than any legal process. Recall how long GW v CHS took to resolve and settle.

So, when I look at the timelines for doing nothing or taking PB to court, hitting up the CC companies is appreciably faster and more effective.

Of course, PB could have Wave 2 approved and in production and they're just keeping it a secret...

It has been demonstrated PB is very sensitive to money, I would suspect not too many credit card claims would hurt. Quite a few had bought heavily for the wave 2 items. My couple hundred dollars they will notice knowing them.

If enough give up and try to get money back, PB will try some delay tactic or get-on with wave 2 after realizing it is not guaranteed money in the bank indefinitely.

Or maybe they figure they will lose their shirts with shipping fees and we are playing into their hands. Paranoia setting in...

In all likelihood, PB owes more in KS Wave 2 pledge dollars than what it would cost for them to produce and ship. Every pledge they have to refund is a net loss (or a larger loss) for PB that has to come out of RIFTS or the Robotech RPG. If chargebacks go big, there is no way PB can afford that kind of hit, not after they've already paid ND for the sculpting, etc.

Sets a rather good setting for an honest update.
They said end of year for completion.
I figure same time this year knowing them.
They got till then, then I will see if a 3+ year chargeback can be made.
I will stick with this plan and quit the threats in this regard.

BUT I will pester on Wave 2 because holding back this bad, I smell a rat.

If Kevin's "slip" in the last update that they're still fine tuning a few of the models is truthful, there's no way in hell they'll make end of THIS year. We know from last year even after the models were designed, they had to be laid out, test the sprues, make tweaks and then give the go to start full-out production. The above took about 3 months last time I recall? Plus about 2-3 months to spit out sprues & box, a month overseas, a month at port (because they'll NEVER get inspected again...) and 2-3 months to ship to US backers, we're looking at Feb 2016 at the earliest.

Better figure on March or April, I heard there is going to be another Chinese New Year in 2016

Feb.8th is the start, to be exact!

Oh boy...

But if we shoot for after CNY, it'll likely get delayed at the port and they'll have to have another vote to sell at gencon because want.

At this point Wave 2 for GENCON 2016 is a distinct possibility!

So is my guess of "this time next year" is about right?
I figure so, since they are making about the same type of noises at the same time as the Wave1.

Maybe it helps them schedule better keeping to the same seasonal cycle.

 Alpharius wrote:
At this point Wave 2 for GENCON 2016 is a distinct possibility!

If I were a betting man, that'd be my pick, for a couple reasons.

First off, if they can't pull the trigger on production real soon, CNY is a potential factor. Sure, it's 7 months away, but manufacturing at this scale isn't a small job, contrary to people who thought all of Wave 1 would be produced in "a couple of days, at most". But the quantity wanted also isn't a big job. And manufacturers do not like to sit idle. So there's a scheduling issue. If PB aren't ready to go, committing to a manufacturing schedule just means more wasted money if they fail to make that deadline. But once they've gotten to that point, they've either got to go to the end of the queue behind other orders, hope a suitable hole in the schedule opens up, or pay a premium for a rush job. And with PB's cheapness being well known, the last isn't likely.

Second, it took 23 months (November 2012, to October 2014) to produce Wave 1. Sure, that included the rules and stats and the like, and we don't know how much progress was made on Wave 2. We saw PPP's of the GEldare and FPA, and development pieces of the Monster and Gnerl, but how much of that is/was retained or discarded, we don't know. We also don't know how much progress was made Wave 2 stuff before they realized they needed to buckle down and get Wave 1 done first. All good points for expecting it to be much shorter. On the contrary side, they don't seem to have the staff (ND distancing themselves), nor the apparent motivation and other projects (both GHQ and book related). To see the final 2/3 of product to be done in just over a year, including 8+ resin items (that they still haven't announced a decision on the Super 1D), and their past history of making deadlines, just seems unlikely.

It's POSSIBLE that PB are moments away from pulling the trigger. But that'd require both a willingness to hold back important information without tooting their own horn, and a level of commitment to the project we haven't seen, well... ever. Absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence, but to have several years old PPP's and five digital sculpts of which most required some work, as the total sum of progress, GenCon seems like a good bet, with the potential for them to blow through that too.

Got to go with Morgan's assessment.

I think apart from anything else getting factory time is going to be a killer to 2015 delivery. If nothing is yet decided then I cannot see how they can be in a position to book a slot, even to start the mould making process, nevermind start production.

Of course all this costs eben more money, so perhaps the elephant they keep telling us is not there, is still in the room

Yeah, I think Morgan has the long and the short of it there.

Given the months it will presumably take to punch out all the sprues, get them across the ocean, and start putting them in the mail/ready them for distribution, they need a factory slot to get that started.

I mean, they need finalized models and sprue breakdowns and whatnot, but if they don't have time at the factory yet, that seems like kind of a big deal.

Like, definition 'counting chickens before they hatch'. Much like the short solicit pre-orders are indicative of a seriousness in engaging retailers/distributors, factory time is a commitment that I can only imagine they aren't looking to mess with again (especially if there was money down the first time around).

So basically, do they have a factory slot lined up? If so, yay, kudos, now meet that deadline. If not... what the feth are they on about with this 'end of the year' crap when they couldn't pull that off last year with less than half the figures?

Show. Don't tell. Telling us they have an end of year target is just words. Showing us sprue breakdown renders, pre-production prototypes, commenting on having a factory slot (which is more words, but at least it'd be indicative of something more than vague assertions), etc, that's closer to showing than any of this scale faffing about.

Edit: and for all the people smugly enjoying their superior patience in the comments, how many more weeks of this crap is it going to take for them to realize that what isn't being said can be just as important as what is being said. It's a running gag now. The project that updates a half dozen times and has nothing to do with the ongoing project itself, after months of silence and misdirection.

I'm sure Kevin is sincere in wanting to get wave two out by the end of the year, but I feel like he threw that out there to placate the masses.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I'm sure Kevin is sincere in wanting to get wave two out by the end of the year, but I feel like he threw that out there to placate the masses.

I'm sure Kevin was sincere in wanting to get Mechanoid Space out by the end of 1995, too.

Hey, lets give him credit. It took almost 15 years but he did finally get Lemuria out. UEDF Marines will only take half that time! Progress, people!

If you look up "stuck in development hell" in a book, you'll see Kevin's face leering back at you.

I don't understand how PB is staying afloat if they are really taking 15 years to put out RPG books.

Is there something that they're doing in a timely fashion in order to actually keep the lights on?

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't understand how PB is staying afloat if they are really taking 15 years to put out RPG books.

Is there something that they're doing in a timely fashion in order to actually keep the lights on?

Begging for money due to the Crisis of Treachery(TM)(R)? I think I've seen them doing that on a yearly basis.

I fear that Kev has got a severe case of
.
.
.Oh, look, a squirrel!

So athough any particular project takes ages from start to finish, PB must be getting something out the door at regular(ish) intervals, right?

 Albertorius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't understand how PB is staying afloat if they are really taking 15 years to put out RPG books.

Is there something that they're doing in a timely fashion in order to actually keep the lights on?

Begging for money due to the Crisis of Treachery(TM)(R)? I think I've seen them doing that on a yearly basis.

I was being serious!

Just what is PB selling in order to stay in business?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't understand how PB is staying afloat if they are really taking 15 years to put out RPG books.

Is there something that they're doing in a timely fashion in order to actually keep the lights on?

Begging for money due to the Crisis of Treachery(TM)(R)? I think I've seen them doing that on a yearly basis.

I was being serious!

Just what is PB selling in order to stay in business?

AFAIK, back issues, by which I mean older books. They have their own printing stuff and pride themselves of having all their catalogue in print all the time.

That and Rifter issues.

I'm not sure about them printing their own stuff, as several things have gone 'out of print' and come 'back in print' or 'in from the printer', at least as I recall.

Actually, here's something from their most recent update;

Meanwhile, I’ve been working on the final edit and all manner of things for Robotech® and Rifts®, and other business matters. As soon as the finished artwork is in and approved, Expeditionary Force Marines™ gets typeset, laid out and sent to the printer. Definitely a July release!

But yeah, I believe they have managed to consistently put out 4 Rifters a year for quite a while now, plus the handful (2-4'ish?) books they manage, a variety of diversified swag (Pencils! Dice Bags! Mousepads! T-Shirts!), Kevin's ebay auctions, and whatever else they manage to scrape together.

Now, how that manages to cover costs for a warehouse/office, production runs, and paying half a dozen people a living wage (plus freelancers), I'm not entirely sure, but here we are.

 Forar wrote:
Now, how that manages to cover costs for a warehouse/office, production runs, and paying half a dozen people a living wage (plus freelancers), I'm not entirely sure, but here we are.

Don't forget occasional residuals from stuff they license out (thinking specifically the Rifts movie option).

Oh, and 1.44 million dollars 2 years ago. That would have helped.

They might make enough to keep the lights on, but it is a point that's been raised, that if costs have exceeded projection, it's likely going to be difficult for PB to dig their way out. They just don't seem to have otherwise lucrative projects that can cover shortfalls.

At least they appear to have remained conservative with GenCon, it being the same size as last year. 2013, they had twice the booth size, and that drek ain't cheap.

But it'll be interesting to see just how much is forthcoming regarding Wave 2 over the next couple months. Cause they've already got a whole swathe of crap they can talk about to avoid talking about Wave 2.

This week, they can do another scale post, announcing it's conclusion date, as well as the stats/functionality of the conventional forces.
Next week (or the week after), they'll probably announce the results of the poll, as well as a last ditch "Get your preorders in for conventional forces/promos/Invid"
The week after that, they can announce the leadup to GenCon, what's available, where, and what events are running.
The week after that, they'll be at GenCon.
The week after that, they'll be recovering from GenCon, and giving a rundown of what happened.

So it's possible they'll not feel they have to post Wave 2 stuff until the middle of August, and still put out five posts in six weeks. And the thing is, with the rush to finish the Marine book, the Rifts book, the conventional/promo stuff as well as prepping for GenCon, in the next five weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing got done on Wave 2 until after then. And as evidenced, they don't seem like showing what's been done already.

* I just read Update 179 again, and it's unclear if Invid are being offered in the webstore. As you need to register before you can see what's available, I haven't done that. Anyone who has signed up, what's being made available?

I checked the night that the webstore option was first available, and they had the limited edition figures and the GHQ stuff. No Invid at the time.

Morgan Vening wrote:

At least they appear to have remained conservative with GenCon, it being the same size as last year. 2013, they had twice the booth size, and that drek ain't cheap.

I was under the impression that last year's booth was the mega sized but empty one (due to the trailer being stopped by customs). Two years ago I thought they had the normal sized booth with little demo night stand tables (at bar table height) but IIRC they doubled the booth size anticipating the gencon sales last year (months before the infamous vote that ratified the decision they already made).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't understand how PB is staying afloat if they are really taking 15 years to put out RPG books.

Is there something that they're doing in a timely fashion in order to actually keep the lights on?

Begging for money due to the Crisis of Treachery(TM)(R)? I think I've seen them doing that on a yearly basis.

I was being serious!

Just what is PB selling in order to stay in business?

The RPG books keep the lights on and the checks from bouncing. In late 2012, they published their 2012-2013 catalog of upcoming titles with an amibitious plan of almost two dozen books "scheduled" to come out during that roughly 14 months despite the fact that they have NEVER been able to put out half that amount even in their glory days when they had double the full time staff years ago and the same folks who are full time NOW were also mostly there and 15 years younger. They accomplished two from that 2012 catalog list plus one unannounced booklet (48 pages) so about 10% what they planned from that source only... if you don't count the almost two dozen major Robotech Tactics products (not including dice, decals, etc) that were announced/funded after the catalog during the KS and still supposed to come out in 2013. If you count robotech, they accomplised about 5% of what they planned for 2013 and MOST of that is still outstanding product debt in 2015. The current batch of upcoming rpg titles (Robotech Marines and Chaos Earth Resurrection) due in July supposedly according to the previous weekly update email are both on that 2012 catalog to do list and we'll be lucky to get the rest of the Tactics stuff this year.

Two to three books from a small RPG outfit (even if they're outdated looking with only b&w art) is still a good output from a small RPG company of only two to three at most full time employees. Unfortunately, Palladium has delusions of (their former) grandeur and a huge back catalog to maintain like zombies shuffling through the warehouse. They constantly bite off more than they EVER were able to chew and then somehow are shocked when they accomplish almost nothing of what they advertised. The Bill Coffin rant pretty much fills in the gaps as to how that happens though and sadly it still applies today both to Tactics and to rpg book production. They simply don't learn from their mistakes regardless of how many times they repeat the same ones. Their fan friend feedback circle enables that to go on by constantly shifting the blame to anywhere but where it belongs.

So out of an announced 24 books from 3 years ago, only 2 have actually been released?

 Forar wrote:
I checked the night that the webstore option was first available, and they had the limited edition figures and the GHQ stuff. No Invid at the time.

They have a whole long list of UEDF and Zentradi stuff for their "Wave 2" to produce before they even start on the Invid. I would not expect anything for that faction until late 2016 at the very earilest. I'd say 2017 is more likely before we see any Invid.

Except the Invid could be in metal. Which has a much, much lower startup cost.