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**Asterios**

Krinsath wrote:
Sorry to re-appear as a non-injured party, but Talizvar made me wonder something that perhaps folks here might know.

With KickStarter you are equipped with the (largely untested) handwavium of the KickStarter Terms of Service that says you're not placing an order but backing an idea because KickStarter is not a store and other such attempts to alter reality. With BackerKit, does an entity have the same level of "protection" (again, setting aside how paper thin that may or may not be)? I believe that service looks very store-like and it's not "give me money to make my dream a reality and I'll send you X based on how much" that KickStarter can claim; there is a very specific dollar-to-object relationship with that interface. That then, to me, would cast doubt on the ability to deflect that the main campaign was in a similar scenario.

Stated another way, does the use of a service and/or document that 1) makes it clear that a concrete relationship of "X=Y" exists and 2) provides a clear "public" definition of that relationship pierce a hole through the veil PB is trying to hide behind in that BBB response?

I'm not a lawyer by any stretch, it was just idle curiosity while catching up during a lunch break.

like I said I don't think Kevin had his lawyer read his response before posting it.

**Merijeek**

Forar wrote:

Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.

And, let's recall that, at least in regards to international orders, they would probably actually SAVE money by allowing those people refunds. They're getting reamed on shipping because they were shortsighted (no!) on the cost of it.

One thing that is clear is that Kevin is not big on doing math ahead of time. He just lets his natural awesomeness smooth out the details.

**JohnHwangDD**

Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.

A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.

**Merijeek**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.

A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.

But surely embracing that 2% chance of Wave Two actually happening is worth continuing to bend over and give PB all the forgiveness in the world?

**Asterios**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.

A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.

True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.

**JohnHwangDD**

Asterios wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.

A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.

True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.

Yeah, if the FTC or and AG wants to make an example of PB, they're up gak's creek.

**Asterios**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Asterios wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.

A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.

True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.

Yeah, if the FTC or and AG wants to make an example of PB, they're up gak's creek.

and right now with the general consensus of how these kickstarters in general and such are going, PB better hurry up with something.

**JohnHwangDD**

The worst part for PB is that PB is an ideal target, being ridiculously mismanged, having raised a goodly amount of money, and tied to something that a lot of people remember.

As an AG, I'd far rather go after PB than Imbrian Arts.

**Asterios**

well just got a letter from my States AG office and according to them they have sent a letter to Palladium containing my letter and an inquiry from their office in regards to this matter.

**JohnHwangDD**

And gak gets real.

**Asterios**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And gak gets real.

I wouldn't go that far since this seems more like a form letter in a sense they are sending an inquiry only and not a full fledge investigation, but maybe later when substantial evidence is presented to them of PB breaking California laws, but for now its just an inquiry.

**JohnHwangDD**

No, it's real - PB is now officially on an AG's radar. Unlike a backer, PB will actually have to respond to the inquiry. They can't just gak-can it and do nothing.

**Cypher-xv**

So much for wave two.

Based on what I read on ricks BBB statement I get the feeling that if Kevin gives up on wave two they will still not issue any partial refunds since they don't feel obligated to because it's kickstarter.

**Mike1975**

So let's see, just for comparison/analysis....I pledged ~$700 total.

I ordered a Showdown plus a battlecry and extras (grab bag) $400
the Decal Sheets x2 $10
Artillery Pods x2 adds $40
Armored VT's $20
YF-4 $30
VEF-1/VF-1D $30
Glaug-Eldare $30
Zen Infantry x2 $60
Objective Pack $15
SDF-1 $20
Decals from each x1 $10

And that's pretty close by memory.

These are what have been delivered. Assuming that the Showdown and Battlecry are only half delivered that's around $250 of my $700
Showdown plus a battlecry and extras (grab bag) $200
the Decal Sheets $10
Artillery Pods x2 adds $40

Now for the rest. Assuming that we are talking value vs full retail sales cost

Showdown plus Battlecry x3 ~$100 per box
Plus an extra 12 Pods x3 = $36 ea or $108
Plus an extra Command Pack x3 = ~$108
Plus the Spartan and Phalanx Packs x2 = ~$108
Plus extra Arty Pods x3 = ~$108
Plus extra Veritech Packs x3 = ~$108
Decal Sheets ~$15?
Plus I have an extra 2 Arty Pod Boxes = ~$72

So ignoring wave 2 and looking at what has been delivered...again, retail...that's about $927 worth of stuff.
So I got what I do have at about 75% of the retail value. That PLUS all the wave 2 things that need to come which is probably about the same or more in total value....

Using the likely retail sales points
Armored VT's $24
YF-4 $36
VEF-1/VF-1D $36
Glaug-Eldare $36
Zen Infantry x2 $72
Objective Pack $20
SDF-1 $25
Decals from each x1 $10
~$259

Assuming Wave 2 arrives...here is the rest.
Miriya x3 = ~$24 ($8 ea)
Roy x3 = ~$54
Rick x3 = ~$54
Khyron x3 = ~$24
Gnerls x9 = ~$54
MPA x 9 = ~$54
FPA x 9 = ~$54
Supers x6 = ~$108
Ghosts x6 =~$54
Lancers x6 = ~54
~$534

So wave 2 I'm missing ~ $793 of stuff retail or about 46% of my pledge. A bit less than half. I might have missed something in there.

So, at least for me, this means that I at least got most of my investment back BUT I'm still missing half of what was promised.

In the end supporting RRT was not bad. It obviously could have been much much better and also has a long ways to go till full completion
.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cypher-xv wrote:
So much for wave two.

Based on what I read on ricks BBB statement I get the feeling that if Kevin gives up on wave two they will still not issue any partial refunds since they don't feel obligated to because it's kickstarter.

They won't refund anybody. Partial or otherwise. Wave 2 or otherwise.

**Cypher-xv**

Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.

**Asterios**

Cypher-xv wrote:
Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.

oh wouldn't say Mike's in their corner, hes still hoping, but he has already made plans to get his mechs from other avenues from what I've heard

**JohnHwangDD**

I will be pissed if I don't get my MAC-II Monster.

**Mike1975**

Cypher-xv wrote:
Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.

I'm in my corner. You should know better than that. I'll take a slim chance at something to no chance at anything any day.

**Forar**

Mike, why are you comparing to the full MSRP? Would you seriously have been buying from their web store at full price? Wouldn't have taken advantage of CSI's free shipping?

To prove I'm not a complete tool, let's look at this overly charitably: a Battle Cry basically comes down to a double Core Box plus an expansion (9 VT's instead of 10, missing a T/D Destroid pack but gaining a S/P Destroid pack, gaining an Artillery Pod box, but otherwise basically that's what it boils down to). Sure, you're missing some tokens, the extra rule book, and dice with the BC, but it's close enough as an estimate.

By that standard, a Wave One BC would cost somewhere around $150-175'ish US (give or take); cores are often in the 65-75 range, and expansions (like the Artillery pods) are often around 20-30, plus or minus a little (then there's taxes, shipping, etc).

So, if one ignores that they are missing dozens of figures (and that what we got is mostly repeated units, with little variety in the sprues), sure, I'll bite, one can feasibly argue that backers basically ended up pre-ordering at vaguely retail prices.

It's not a crime against finances, nor was it a massive savings. It becomes a something closer to parity, depending on a lot of factors.

But add ons? Those we're getting fethed on, no doubt about that.

And bluntly, there's hilarity in them increasing MSRP's playing to their favour in this kind of calculation. "Oh, VT boxes are $38 MSRP!", except they were more like $30 before the bump, were $25 during the campaign, and have been as low as $12 when CSI was apparently trying to pitch them into the market last Christmas.

They said they'd deliver 97 figures for $140. They've delivered 70 of those. Even if the MSRP or Retail amount of those 70 figures is more than $140, they still owe us product. Product that they dangled and teased to draw in greater and greater funding. Remember how the FPA, Super VT, MAC-II and other figures were teased out for days and weeks? That didn't happen in a vacuum. Not to mention that they went on at length about how much value the backers were getting by contributing. It wasn't "oh, basically pay store prices 2 years in advance to get these figures", that funding was predicated on people getting a much broader cross section of the product line, and massive savings at that.

I very clearly remember people weighing out how "oh, but I want more FPA's and MPA's and Gnerls" and realizing that for an extra $20 or $40 they could get a whole extra BC, giving them what they wanted and another pile of figures on top of that.

The value found was part of the draw at that price point. Declaring a pair of VT's to be worth $40 doesn't mean a BC contains $180 worth of VT's alone.

**n815e**

Their own worst enemies.

**Talizvar**

Yeah, it is the add-ons "teased" out of me outside of kickstarter closure that has me all upset.

If it hits retail, I may pick it up later but I want my money now.
They do not deserve it till something tangible shows up (if at all).

The bonus rewards are nice but the buying ahead knowing what I know now was a fool maneuver.

**Joyboozer**

I might be misunderstanding, but from readings Kevin's claims, there is actually no benefit to being a backer on Kickstarters?
You take all the risk and aren't actually entitled to what you are promised?
Is this also kickstarters view?

**Mike1975**

Forar wrote:
Mike, why are you comparing to the full MSRP? Would you seriously have been buying from their web store at full price? Wouldn't have taken advantage of CSI's free shipping?

To prove I'm not a complete tool, let's look at this overly charitably: a Battle Cry basically comes down to a double Core Box plus an expansion (9 VT's instead of 10, missing a T/D Destroid pack but gaining a S/P Destroid pack, gaining an Artillery Pod box, but otherwise basically that's what it boils down to). Sure, you're missing some tokens, the extra rule book, and dice with the BC, but it's close enough as an estimate.

By that standard, a Wave One BC would cost somewhere around $150-175'ish US (give or take); cores are often in the 65-75 range, and expansions (like the Artillery pods) are often around 20-30, plus or minus a little (then there's taxes, shipping, etc).

So, if one ignores that they are missing dozens of figures (and that what we got is mostly repeated units, with little variety in the sprues), sure, I'll bite, one can feasibly argue that backers basically ended up pre-ordering at vaguely retail prices.

It's not a crime against finances, nor was it a massive savings. It becomes a something closer to parity, depending on a lot of factors.

But add ons? Those we're getting fethed on, no doubt about that.

And bluntly, there's hilarity in them increasing MSRP's playing to their favour in this kind of calculation. "Oh, VT boxes are $38 MSRP!", except they were more like $30 before the bump, were $25 during the campaign, and have been as low as $12 when CSI was apparently trying to pitch them into the market last Christmas.

They said they'd deliver 97 figures for $140. They've delivered 70 of those. Even if the MSRP or Retail amount of those 70 figures is more than $140, they still owe us product. Product that they dangled and teased to draw in greater and greater funding. Remember how the FPA, Super VT, MAC-II and other figures were teased out for days and weeks? That didn't happen in a vacuum. Not to mention that they went on at length about how much value the backers were getting by contributing. It wasn't "oh, basically pay store prices 2 years in advance to get these figures", that funding was predicated on people getting a much broader cross section of the product line, and massive savings at that.

I very clearly remember people weighing out how "oh, but I want more FPA's and MPA's and Gnerls" and realizing that for an extra $20 or $40 they could get a whole extra BC, giving them what they wanted and another pile of figures on top of that.

The value found was part of the draw at that price point. Declaring a pair of VT's to be worth $40 doesn't mean a BC contains $180 worth of VT's alone.

To avoid the obvious "no gak shirlock" that comes to mind with the Tool comment....I appreaciate that sooo much. I did MSRP because anything less can vary. Basically I got everything 25% off the retail which likely what I would have gotten anyways if I had purchased on MM or CSI or many others. So the point is that even if PB screws the pooch I've gotten my moneys worth. Not what I honestly hope for but not bad either. If PB dies my main worry will be how I can get the stuff that they were never able to provide. I'm working my own ways on that just in case. I can join the lawsuit train and hope for $100 or something back but I think that highly unlikely. I think I'm more likely to get what I want by waiting in PB or going to my own sources. Rick already has Hovertanks and Bioroids. Others have Invid. I have some Invid and Cyclones.....the work goes on.

If I had done a sale price that could be argued. I could have also increased the prices because by the time wave two shows up what would have been a $36 pack of YF-4's might likely be $40 or more.

It has all with being practical. I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

Lawsuit = Zip

Patience = Very small chance of at least part of wave 2.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that deal might look even worse if PB does in fact die and we start seeing more stuff on 50% or more sales.

**JohnHwangDD**

Regardless of how they count things, I'm out at least $40 bucks for my MAC-II. No MAC-II? Then I want my $40 back.

**Cyporiean**

I just want my resin SDF-1. :/

**Stormonu**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Regardless of how they count things, I'm out at least $40 bucks for my MAC-II. No MAC-II? Then I want my $40 back.

Same here. Although it'd make me much happier if EVERYTHING was delivered, I'm only willing to be charitable in agreeing that "Wave One" was the delivery of the boxed game set. The add-ons I paid separately for in the backer kit, if they can't deliver I want that money back. For me, that's a MAC-II and some additional Wave Two add-ons of around $100 overall.

And in case anyone here hasn't been visiting the kickstarter site, I filed with the AG a couple of days ago. Still waiting for a response at this time.

**Merijeek**

Hey Mike, how long will you be "patient"? In what year will you finally accept that PB will never produce those miniatures?

Does Simbieda need to be dead or what?

**Mike1975**

I blocked Merijeek ages ago...luckily I opened the page and read before I signed in.

So to help assist him......Like I said ....

Lawsuit = Zippo

Waiting = Very Slim Chance

There are no other options.....so time is kinda not part of the equation.

Personally I've already started moving on/forward. I hope for the best but move on assuming the worst.

**wufai**

Sorry for coming in late, did I miss something that Wave 2 is OFFICALLY dead? or just assuming it is dead because it has taken forever for an update?

**Stormonu**

Kevin would never willingly admit the KS is dead.

The burden of proving it is is now up to the backers - and the AG.