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And I don't know about "Churning and burning as we speak", seems like it's been more "Crash and Burn" to me.

Welp, it looks like Forar's thread on the PBF regarding the BBB complaints didn't just get locked, but deleted. I didn't see what was said after the last post I wrote, as I've been at work for 15 hours (danged reliever with car problems, grumble grumble).

So I don't know if it was deleted based on it's general nature, or if the thread went off the rails, which wouldn't surprise me either. Last I checked, it was civil, though. And while I can understand not wanting the thread to stand, it does kinda reinforce the "we will censor everything that's not sunshine and rainbows" reputation those forums have.

KevCo must grit their teeth that the KS Comments and Dakka can't be kept in line in a similar manner.

oh its not just here and the KS forums, word is spreading and its already in facebook groups and blogs and so forth.

It's gotten to the point that the faithful are panicking. Some are posting on FB that because of tricky Ricky and two (only two others) have single handidly killed rrt and PB.lol

of course cause according to Kevin I'm the mastermind behind everything.

That thread always had a halflife shorter than a meaningless freebie at gencon. I'm curious to see if Forar got permabanned for starting it, suspended for a time, or just a warning. Dissension is not tolerated in the DPRK.. I mean PB forums.

Not so much as a private message over it so far.

As an aside, it wasn't necessarily deleted, I believe they've mentioned the forum software allowing them to move (without leaving anything behind) and/or hide threads so they can review them without leaving it in the public eye.

Yes they also sometimes lock and reopen threads, but for a topic like that I'm not surprised if they decided to pull or hide it outright.

But nothing as of yet in terms of disciplinary action.

it probably was removed since it shone a not so good light on PB, plain and simple, doubt they want any talk of PB being sued or anything.

Also Forar, in that other topic about litigation, you might want to tell Eliakon, not many complaining on the forums there cause they are banned from the forums there.

he he he

I like how they fanboys are saying to go after ND, even though it's been months since ND was involved, and PB already threw them under the bus.

Newsflash, it's not ND that's killing the project. They were done ages ago. They just finished delivering SDE:FK, posted their last Update on Friday.

And even if it was, how come PB doesn't have a single picture of anything for Wave 2 in months?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
And even if it was, how come PB doesn't have a single picture of anything for Wave 2 in months?

Obviously because ND haven't done anything towards it in months! [/sarcasm]

 Forar wrote:
Not so much as a private message over it so far.

As an aside, it wasn't necessarily deleted, I believe they've mentioned the forum software allowing them to move (without leaving anything behind) and/or hide threads so they can review them without leaving it in the public eye.

Yes they also sometimes lock and reopen threads, but for a topic like that I'm not surprised if they decided to pull or hide it outright.

Any good forum software will allow you to move threads and not leave a 'trace' behind - or you can also leave a 'trace' if you want people to still be able to find it in its original location.

Also, I'm sure every forum also has 'hidden' and/or limited access areas as well.

But really, deleting it is probably even easier.

I wonder how much money Kevin's lawyer has made explaining to him that, no, he can't have the Dakka forum (and ones like it) shut down?

i'm not sure Kevin even has a lawyer after his responses to those BBB complaints.

Problem with the saintly Kevin, is that he has still not realised this is not a normal PB project they put the money to themselves and so can promise and delay for years, where in the end sthe fanbois will still thank him for working so hard to get it to them

This is the largest investment PB have ever got and so there is a lot of other people with a stake in this as well as Kev and so we want to see progress.

As an aside how much did PB/ND put up themselves for this KS, could it be as is likely the backers were in the end massively funduing this "dream" game for PB?

wilycoyote wrote:
As an aside how much did PB/ND put up themselves for this KS, could it be as is likely the backers were in the end massively funduing this "dream" game for PB?

As far as we know, PB didn't put a cent not coming from the KS funds. They might have paid something beforehand to Ninja Division, but we don't really know. Also, I'm pretty confident that any amount paid beforehand to ND got reimbursd afterwards from the KS funds, because it's completely consequent with the way PB seems to do everything.

So I'd say the answer is probably "nothing at all".

Well Kevin did say they put in 40K to get it rolling which is a lot more then the could afford according to Kevin.

I don't think they've ever said how much money might've gone in, but they claimed to have been working on the project for half a year prior to the KS launching, and did have a reasonable number of renders and whatnot lined up for during the campaign.

That's for PB at least. ND was contracted to do work on the figures and the rules, so I would expect that they got paid and didn't front any of their own money.

If I were passionate about a project and wanted to help it get off the ground I could see perhaps doing some initial work at a reduced rate or with delayed payments (fronting time and expertise rather than capital), with compensation arranged in advance in the contract, but that might just be me.

Given that PB's railed against how they expected ND to do all the heavy lifting and apparently ND acted in accordance with their contract, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that ND may well have had to point out they were paid to do X and even helped with Y, but that Z and beyond were outside the Scope Of Work, which is a very common thing to debate in large projects.

Which is funny, because ND doing all the heavy lifting is part of what drew a lot of people with reservations about PB into the campaign in the first place. That whole diatribe across 2 updates attempts to make it sound like PB were stabbed in the back by ND, but my read is that they failed to capture the entire scope of what they needed ND to do in the contract, and it bit them hard in the end.

I've been working with some project managers for the past year and a half, and things being in, not in, added to, or removed from the scope of work is a thing that happens all the time.

If PB couldn't sweeten the deal enough to get ND onboard with the extra effort, that's on them to do it themselves or find someone else who could.

This project has been in dramatic need of a quality PM since before it started, and the lack of one has at least been a contributing factor that led to this clusterfeth as it is.

Excellent point. The Dust and Battlefront KS is another example of this. One rule of thumb I have is to avoid projects with multiple parties (eg. AvP b/c of licensing) which fits with the project scope issues between two parties you mention.

Well, it is rather sad to be one of only three in the BBB complaint club.

Any other takers or waiting to see the fallout?
How I proceed is dependent on the response forthcoming.

Got a little "play money" recently with a coming change of address so my options are getting interesting in regards to PB.

Did I ever say I do not like "bullies"?

Well, the BBB being a generally toothless organization (by my understanding) I can understand why it's not a popular method of attempting to pursue alternative means of recompense.

Checkmarking it along with other methods tried before reaching out to AG's or other venues, however, might make it more attractive in the weeks and months to come.

So you might not really be 1 of 3, Talizvar. Simply among the first 3 to eventually pursue that option.

Hell, I'm glad to know it's possible to file a complaint as a Canadian. I'm not at that point yet, but if I walk that path, you're blazing the trail, sir.

 Forar wrote:
I'm not at that point yet, but if I walk that path, you're blazing the trail, sir.

I like to think of it more as adding a little discomfort to their self-absorbed view of things.
Some accountability would be nice.
The money is still mine till legally proven otherwise.
Increasing publicity to inform others of their "practices" is a consumer right and may make PB aware they may not be all that acceptable to polite society.
No hater here, just attempting some public training, they are getting a wee bit old to learn new tricks however: gotta try.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, it is rather sad to be one of only three in the BBB complaint club.

Any other takers or waiting to see the fallout?

While I don't normally like to back seat litigate (my ability to seek recompense is all but non-existent at this time), I do hope any new entrants into the BBBCC, or anyone following up on said claims make sure to address the blatantly misleading unsubstantiated claim that they've kept backers informed.

Wyatt Bilger BBB Response wrote:Page 3, Para 1, There have been 17 Updates in the last six months alone. {snip} Mr Bilger's claim that we have not provided any information in the last six months is simply untrue.

Unless you literally count a nebulous "soon" as "informing your backers", those claims are champion grade fertilizer. It's technically accurate, but it's not in the spirit of what's being asked. And in eight days, that one actual newsworthy update rolls off the "six months" timeframe.

It's like the part of the FAQ that Kevin quotes, that he completely fails to address. "If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator."

First off, where's the effort? They've been as transparent as an unsold pallet of Robotech Tactics boxes, and the BBB complaints ARE trying to hold PB accountable, because nothing else has worked, and two years after it was due, and a year after partial delivery, patience and understanding are wearing thin. They refuse to engage the backer base in public, or address any of the actual issues the backers have, and in some cases, refuse to respond privately too.

Regarding the patience and understanding that paragraph he's expecting, I'm sure if an artist or a writer was paid for their work up front, on a 9 month deadline, delivered half 9 months late, sent in a very rough draft of a couple sketches/chapters 6 months after that, and spent the last six months saying nothing but "soon", I think Kevin's patience and understanding would be well past exhausted too.

I put this on face book but I thought I should share it here as well

As one of the backers that filled with the bbb, I just wanted to take a moment and explain why I did and I why I think it's important that the rest of you do as well.
I had tried to contact pb and they outright ignored my messages. Filling a case with the bbb shows and demonstrates my attempts at resolution and reconciliation. 
However potentially the most critical element is that it gave me a document by Kevin himself that I can present to the AG and the court. It gives me some insight into his defense and Kevin himself gave me a letter so full of legal holes as to be outright laughable. The more documents like the one he gave me we can get the better. For those of us that want a refund, it's letters like these that we need to present to the AG. The document Kevin himself produced, could ultimately prove more damning than anything I could have written. So I urge you all to contact the bbb so Kevin can continue shooting himself in the foot.

also for those of you who keep mentioning lawsuits and such, your still missing the big point, the lawsuits are nothing the BBB complaints are nothing, the thing that will destroy PB and utterly destroy them is the AG's and if PB does nothing soon they will be destroyed soon, once the AG's been called in they can't be called off by any backer, even when that order against that one kickstarter came in against it by a CPA violation brought in from an AG, the Pledges were being delivered and the courts still found them guilty. and fined. I look at all those whiners on the PB forums and think they are whining to the wrong people, they need to whine to PB cause the AG will not listen to them and I have no say in stopping the AG's now. all I can do is supply the information they request.

you want to keep PB safe you better start whining at PB and Kevin to get off his ass and do something, cause once the ball gets rolling with the various AG's they will not stop until they got their blood.

Threatening "destruction" is a bit much for bad behavior on supplying goods and a rather hostile customer service experience.
BBB is just putting the "badge of dishonor!" on PB in one venue, others shall be updated if satisfaction is not reached.

If we are to get the models that were promised: I want to know.

If we are not getting them: I want the a proportionate amount of the money owing because they were able to do it but chose other priorities.

I would be "happy" enough to get product of theirs when it hits retail, anything even remotely approaching "pre-order" is bad in the same breath as Palladium Books.

If this all works out, I am sure I will be in the clear to order the coveted Robotech dice bag.

 Talizvar wrote:
Threatening "destruction" is a bit much for bad behavior on supplying goods and a rather hostile customer service experience.

Destruction might have been a harsh word but after the way PB has treated us, it fits

 Talizvar wrote:
If this all works out, I am sure I will be in the clear to order the coveted Robotech dice bag.

and we all know how much you want that dice bag, since you have been eating, breathing and sleeping with nothing but that dice bag on your mind.

The best we'll (eventually) get out of PB is extra RRT starter boxes, fourth-tier PB product that nobody will want (and damned sure can't resell) or nothing.

It will be interesting to see what happens eventually.

someone on the Robotech Uncensored group who happens to be pretty much the voice of PB fans posted this:

Don Wilkins Thats okay Dick. I am not a backer. Do you see me complaining? Besides I have probably put more money in this then you anyway. And I still am able to wait and not cry like a little girl.
Wave 2 is coming. That is plain as day. They have said since the begining of wave 2 that they were keeping hush about any releasse dates and other info. You are just mad that they are keeping you in the dark. Although I may not agree with that . It was probably for the best when dealing with customers like this.
I will wait patiently for wave 2 . After all. It is already paid for. Thank you for that!!

tell me how does that look for PB? or their fans?

It'd be kind of funny for people with Showdowns and Reckless orders.

"Were 18 or 36 VT's enough? How about 10 or 20 more? 24 - 48 more Battlepods, everyone loves Battlepods!"

8 more core boxes (assuming one per battle cry) would be one thing.

Now hypothetically, if they tried to play the same with add on funding, that becomes very interesting to see how they valued it. The 'topping off' of the BC's I can see some wiggle room in, but I would not consider 2 more core boxes a fair trade for $200+ in add ons, but also can't see them admitting that they only retail for around $60-70 (or less on a big sale), despite having them roughly that low at Gencon themselves, and even then, 3-4 more on top of the other 8 would hold actual negative appeal.

The missing figures from BC's (Rick, Roy, Miriya, Khyron, Super VTs, Gnerls, FPA, MPA, etc) tally up to far more than just $50 (a vaguely generous market value) or $100 (a laughable MSRP), but I can see them arguing "oh, they're owed 27 more figures, this is 37 figures! More! How is that not generous!?" if they tried it.

And yeah, adding like 7000+ core boxes to the market would absolutely flood availability, killing off what resale value remains (yes Rick I'm aware of the BC on ebay that went for barely more than a core box, that's what I'm referring to), and trying to pay off backers that are unhappy with the figures with more of those figures seems like it'd be a hard sell.

Looking at it this way; a core box, in theory, probably wholesales for like $40-50. Add in the considerable price of shipping (a flat rate box would be, what, $10, more for larger orders, vastly more for international backers); even with material on hand, paying $20-30 in shipping to send someone $50-100 in product to alleviate $40-50'ish in repayment of outstanding product seems like an awful lot of resources even on the small scale.

I doubt it's an impossible solution, but the 'savings' of avoiding spending more capital would rapidly get eaten up in shipping alone, is most of my point.

Let me stress this again. I completely agree that the bbb rating is largely meaningless. It's pb reply letters to the bbb that are what I'd like to see. These are documents that we can then present to the AG.