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grumpy_newenglander wrote:
Longtime Palladium fan here.

Not at all surprised at what a disaster this has become. PB is an old school, small market pen and paper RPG company. They were wildly inexperienced with the miniature market/scene, and woefully underprepared for such a successful KS and all the expectations it brought.

It's a shame because I really like the RRT mini's and the rules are pretty good. For a first shot at the big time wargaming scene, they did alright with the actual product itself...however...the KS disaster, poor customer service, and total lack of communication dwarfs the actual quality of the product.

The thing is, even if they were woefully unprepared, that's not the big issue. I honestly think if they'd been on top of things from a communications perspective, they could have managed a lot of that. Look at Kingdom Death, or any of the crapload of Kickstarters that have run into trouble. They all seem to have some backers go off the rails, but I haven't seen any approach this level of vehemence. And that's because instead of being up front, accepting responsibility and proving they deserve the benefit of the doubt, they've kept silent or intentionally mislead, passed the buck to everyone from the manufacturers to their "partners" to the backers themselves, and shown little but contempt for fixing the problem.

The only campaigns that come close, or exceed RRT in this situation are ones that were found to be intentionally fraudulent (Defiance, Ice Age Mammals, etc). And that's not company PB want to be compared to.

I'll respectfully disagree with the "did alright with the actual product" bit, but that's subjective, so I accept the difference of opinion. But agreed any chance they had was screwed up by things fully in their control.

grumpy_newenglander wrote:
Hopefully Palladium finds a way to redeem themselves, fix their bad rep, and continue to improve an already good product.

It's possible. It's possible I'll be crowned King of Norway and Sweden. But I wouldn't put much chance in that. It'd require PB not only being open and honest in their communication, but also, and just as importantly, with consistency and quality. Over the last two and a half years, PB HAVE on occasion produced a decent or otherwise unobjectionable update. But they've never followed through. Either there's been large periods of actual silence*, or the more current issue of Updates without meaningful information. The lead up of "big news coming" to the June 6th Update that then provided very little information of note, and nothing but broken or empty promises since, isn't the way to handle things.
* My favorite is Sept 26th 2013, where they apologized for three weeks of silence in an Update entitled "Sorry for the Silence", only to follow it with three more weeks of silence.

Forar's count is I believe at 96 days since Wayne said he'd work on a full breakdown of all the pieces. Assuming 24 models, and 8 resin components, that's 3 full days PER model. And this isn't to have them done. This is just to evaluate where they're currently at. Even if you discount weekends, it's STILL 2+ working days for each item. Which should take no more than 10 minutes apiece (if done comprehensively, much shorter if done more summarily).

There's plenty they could do to correct the issue, but they need to own up to their own mistakes (and not deflect them), and they need to start being SEEN to be working on it. Else all their words are for naught.

grumpy_newenglander wrote:
BRB gonna go buy that slick new Glitterboy mouse pad now...

So, you're the one. You should stop encouraging them by doing that.

It's okay. They can keep trying to stall for time until buyers get fed up enough to complain en masse to the AG of their states. Please PB, do it, just feth up enough that you'll be put out of your misery by the law. I'm willing to accept that spectacle in lieu of wave 2

Indeed. While I want the stuff I paid for, if I don't get it, I'll accept the bankruptcy of both Palladium and Kevin as small recompense.

A toast to the Downfall of PB and Kevin then shall we?

I'd prefer if I got my Monster, but that likelyhood is getting more and more remote.

I'm to the point I want this to end, one way the other. Either get me my stuff, or go the feth out of business giving me my money back.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd prefer if I got my Monster, but that likelyhood is getting more and more remote.

I'm to the point I want this to end, one way the other. Either get me my stuff, or go the feth out of business giving me my money back.

Only IF they DO go out of business, you have buckley's of getting any money back. The factory in China is likely to be owed money [IF they ever actually DID ANYTHING on wave 2] and they will get theirs before we get any of ours. IF we do, it'll be cents on the dollar.

IF we get anything, it'll either be the wave 2 items we want [PB HAVE been working on it and plan to shock, I mean surprise, us by saying "It has all just hit our warehouse and we're shipping it out this week!"] sometime between now and the heat death of the universe, or we can put that time back a little with all the warm feeling generated when PB get wound up and Kev is made personally bankrupt.

And BBB and AG messages are great for US backers. Don't suppose us in the RoW [including EU, Aus, et al.] will see any chance of ANY money back.

Also, I know it is easy to quote how much people are still owed in proportions of a BC pledge, but I don't believe I'm the only one who went in for the models alone and was not interested in a game. There must be quite a few of us that are owed the vast majority of our pledges because of that fact. I don't want to eat a $140 loss just to get a $5 sheet of decals. I have at least started making plans to get replacements of some of the stuff I wanted from other sources. The SDF-1 I have already ordered, and mentioned here, but I am holding back on the other models because there is just nothing out there at the same size to make it viable to collect them all. I MAY have to resort to buying a set of RRT Veritechs to paint up as the characters I wanted or as a trial of 'realistic' paint and 'cell-shaded' paint. But that will be all that PB gets out of me from now on.

I don't think we're ever seeing wave 2 next year or the year after that.

I think at this point, worrying about losing your money is a moot point: PB perma-keeping it or bankruptcy.

I too am at the point that I would trade anything they owe me for PB to be wiped from existence as a company. My reasoning is that NO company should act as they do and get away with it, it is an affront to customer service and consumer rights.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Only IF they DO go out of business, you have buckley's of getting any money back. The factory in China is likely to be owed money [IF they ever actually DID ANYTHING on wave 2] and they will get theirs before we get any of ours. IF we do, it'll be cents on the dollar.

IF we get anything, it'll either be the wave 2 items we want [PB HAVE been working on it and plan to shock, I mean surprise, us by saying "It has all just hit our warehouse and we're shipping it out this week!"] sometime between now and the heat death of the universe, or we can put that time back a little with all the warm feeling generated when PB get wound up and Kev is made personally bankrupt.

And BBB and AG messages are great for US backers. Don't suppose us in the RoW [including EU, Aus, et al.] will see any chance of ANY money back.

No, it'd be a shock, as I doubt KevCo could remain silent if they were further along than we thought. Cause as much as they don't want to "give out dates", they sure do give them out a lot. And usually prematurely, because they use the absolute best case scenario as their realistic timeframe. Not just with RRT leading up to GenCon 2014, but also on their book schedules. If there's one thing we know about Kevin, it's that he suffers from premature expectation.

The BBB aren't likely to get involved, and any individual lawsuits are likely going to screw international backers. Depending on how it's handled, the AG may not, but PB might anyway, by paying out to US backers first. Cause if there's another thing we know about Kevin, it's that ROW are secondary backers.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Also, I know it is easy to quote how much people are still owed in proportions of a BC pledge, but I don't believe I'm the only one who went in for the models alone and was not interested in a game. There must be quite a few of us that are owed the vast majority of our pledges because of that fact. I don't want to eat a $140 loss just to get a $5 sheet of decals. I have at least started making plans to get replacements of some of the stuff I wanted from other sources. The SDF-1 I have already ordered, and mentioned here, but I am holding back on the other models because there is just nothing out there at the same size to make it viable to collect them all. I MAY have to resort to buying a set of RRT Veritechs to paint up as the characters I wanted or as a trial of 'realistic' paint and 'cell-shaded' paint. But that will be all that PB gets out of me from now on.

Surely there's someone you can buy the Veri's off, for much less than buying from PB. And giving that person a little financial relief and not giving PB any more money, has to be win-win-win, no?

And as someone who's done the proportional BC pledge calculation, that's only ever been in regards those components. Anything paid that was not for a Battlecry is owed in it's entirety, and there's no argument there. It's as simple as "I paid X for these three addons, therefore I'm owed X". BC's are the only tricky part because they've only been partially delivered. In your case, you're owed exactly what you're paid, less what you paid for the decals, and any shipping cost beyond what it cost them to send you those.

I doubt you're alone in pledging without getting a BC, but I'd be surprised if many other people did, though. The price discount on figures by buying a BC would likely have been too much for most backers. If you wanted the four character models, and two specialty ones (say Super Valks and MPA), you would have been ~$20 away from getting the remainder of the BC, even if the cards/rules/tokens/templates weren't useful. And there was a CRAPLOAD of other miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
I think at this point, worrying about losing your money is a moot point: PB perma-keeping it or bankruptcy.

I too am at the point that I would trade anything they owe me for PB to be wiped from existence as a company. My reasoning is that NO company should act as they do and get away with it, it is an affront to customer service and consumer rights.

Definitely. They deserve the "free hand of the market" to be at play here. Well, at least the back of said hand.

Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.

A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?

(or are we up to 4 now?)

 Alpharius wrote:
A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?

(or are we up to 4 now?)

Nah, if Rick/Asterios follows through with his plans advertised so often for years then it isn't treachery, it'll be the Crisis of Righteous Fury!TM for palladium. If anything, THIS kickstarter and palladium's actions in undermining consistantly what they promised 2 years ago (and breaking their word since as well) would technically be the Crisis of Treachery II: Kevin strikes back(ers)!

Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?

I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?

 Alpharius wrote:
Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?

I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?

I can't speak for others but my kickstarter contract with Palladium (that they've unilaterally chosen to break multiple times without my consent or foreknowledge) didn't include an oath of fealty to Palladium and/or its liege lord, Kevin Siembieda. Nothing I'm capable of doing (including raising awareness of Palladium's behavior...my only action so far) can therefore be treacherous.

Please!

You signed up for this with your vote of confidence/oath of fealty/pledge!

If anyone attempts to stop PB on their journey?

Treachery is afoot.

 Alpharius wrote:
Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?

I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?

I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?

I can't speak for others but my kickstarter contract with Palladium (that they've unilaterally chosen to break multiple times without my consent or foreknowledge) didn't include an oath of fealty to Palladium and/or its liege lord, Kevin Siembieda. Nothing I'm capable of doing (including raising awareness of Palladium's behavior...my only action so far) can therefore be treacherous.

You sure about that? How carefully did you read the TOS?

 Alpharius wrote:
A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?

(or are we up to 4 now?)

"Crises of Treachery" are caused by Kevin's minions doing something underhanded behind his back, like stealing and selling priceless artwork.

When it's the Dear Leader himself behind the shenanigans not to deliver what people paid for, "Fraud" seems to be a far more apt label. Quite frankly, I hope that Rick pierces the corporate veil on this one, so that Kevin can be held personally accountable.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?

(or are we up to 4 now?)

"Crises of Treachery" are caused by Kevin's minions doing something underhanded behind his back, like stealing and selling priceless artwork.

When it's the Dear Leader himself behind the shenanigans not to deliver what people paid for, "Fraud" seems to be a far more apt label. Quite frankly, I hope that Rick pierces the corporate veil on this one, so that Kevin can be held personally accountable.

You're assuming Kevin will see himself as the accountable party in any blame game. His deflection-fu is unparalleled. Of course it's not HIS fault. It's the company in China, or Ninja Division, or the backers, or, if nothing else works, I don't think Wayne's job is THAT safe, if it comes right down to it. Not if him keeping it meant Kevin had to take responsibility.

In the instance mentioned, it'd be Rick's fault. He's the ringleader trying to bring them down. And he didn't have faith in Kevin's vision. So, all Rick's fault.

Are you ready for that responsibility, Rick? Are. You. Ready?

Y'know, I think he might be.

Actually, it'll be up to a judge or jury to hold Kevin accountable, because it's obvious that he doesn't hold himself to account.

 warboss wrote:
Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.

I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.

So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".

And that basically makes it the same countdown as the one to the end of the year, which I believe is around 78 now. Given that it's impossible for them to complete the wave without several miracles and air freighting a lot of stuff, now it's just a matter of running out the clock and then hearing of Rick's triumphant and ironclad legal offensive launching.

Since I don't think I've posted it here lately, here's my ongoing date list for context;

Days since the last update: 8 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 97 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 228 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)

Days until the end of 2015: 78 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 169 (highly unlikely)
Days until Gencon 2016: 293 (*very* optimistic)
Days until the end of 2016: 444 (optimistic)

While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.

Yes, yes, we're all surprised they manage to tie their own shoes, whatever snark necessary to make people happy, by the numbers of wave one alone, it's not an unreasonable expectation that they should be able to get their gak together within the next 15 months, especially if so many quarters have already been spent working on that material.

And a fine point has been brought up questioning what statute of limitations might exist regarding things if backers did want to pursue their grievances. If the related laws have a 5 year cap, there are only so many more months that people can say 'oh be patient I've waited eight hundred years blah blah blah' before the clock runs out and PB walks scott free (because let's be real, for them to take a hit to their reputation, they'd need to have one for anything but delays and disappointment).

Asterios wrote:

I disagree, this whole aspect of theirs is new, look at weekly updates in the past there is no mention of this anywhere, it could be they just lost a potential IP licensing holder? it could be they wish they did the d20 thing? it could be no one wants to work with them? it could be their funds are extremely low and they might not even be able to pay the rent soon, all in all it comes down to 61 days, nuff said.

Emphasis added and just quoting that forward for Forar, Official Countdown Keeper of the Dakka Backers of RRT (The DakBac faction).

 Forar wrote:

Spoiler:

I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.

So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".

And that basically makes it the same countdown as the one to the end of the year, which I believe is around 78 now. Given that it's impossible for them to complete the wave without several miracles and air freighting a lot of stuff, now it's just a matter of running out the clock and then hearing of Rick's triumphant and ironclad legal offensive launching.

Since I don't think I've posted it here lately, here's my ongoing date list for context;

Days since the last update: 8 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 97 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 228 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)

Days until the end of 2015: 78 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 169 (highly unlikely)
Days until Gencon 2016: 293 (*very* optimistic)
Days until the end of 2016: 444 (optimistic)

While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.

Yes, yes, we're all surprised they manage to tie their own shoes, whatever snark necessary to make people happy, by the numbers of wave one alone, it's not an unreasonable expectation that they should be able to get their gak together within the next 15 months, especially if so many quarters have already been spent working on that material.

And a fine point has been brought up questioning what statute of limitations might exist regarding things if backers did want to pursue their grievances. If the related laws have a 5 year cap, there are only so many more months that people can say 'oh be patient I've waited eight hundred years blah blah blah' before the clock runs out and PB walks scott free (because let's be real, for them to take a hit to their reputation, they'd need to have one for anything but delays and disappointment).

Sobering numbers there, to be sure!

Would you be surprised if, upon reading this post, that was the first time PB was aware of them?

Not in the slightest.

Frankly I think that may be more documentation than they have readily available on hand.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.

I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.

So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".

*snip*

While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.

Sounds like the date for RickFury is almost as nailed down as a Palladium Wave 2 delivery date! As for the last part, I was really hoping that palladium LEARNED something from their failures during wave 1 that would decrease the time it takes to make wave 2. I suspect they did learn something (even if it was only that they actually knew nothing) but that the hold up now for wave 2 is monetary and not skill based. Sales probably aren't as high as expected because of the way they've treated backers and they likely tied up lots of pledge funds in now dead wave 1 retail stock that the fire sales don't seem to be recouping. It's obviously all conjecture since Palladium doesn't feel like actually addressing the 800lb gorilla in the room.

For those BT fans....Skirmish was made just for this....pick your mech and warrggh!

Made slight points changes on Robotech stuff....I reduced a few by 1-2 points by reducing the skills cost for the Pilots

Still working on balance and feel with the BT stuff.

1st off, people have forgotten Kevin still has an ace up his sleeve, if you remember the mysterious circumstances regarding Jeff's leaving of PB at around the same time, Kevin had an explosion saying someone was stealing his stuff, mind you he never said who, and not saying Jeff was guilty, it is all circumstantial, but remember Jeff had access to the RRT stuff, and while Kevin cannot blame him without actual proof he could claim any number of things like someone at the OH broke into his office and stole or damaged any info regarding RRT. also not saying this is true, but it is a viable excuse for Kevin. (also hate to be the lone backer who showed up for the OH that has been real outspoken on the forums if he goes this route).

Now while he cannot use that as a legal defense (he may think he can) he can use it to call to his fan friends for help (Ala COT ? ) and use funds from that to produce something, anything to show he is working on the RRT project, since he has yet to show anything Physical and or substantial to show he has done anything on the project. as to the 3D drawings he showed, those are the ones used to make the prototypes he has shown at Conventions and such.

will PB burn? if they keep going the way they are now? most likely, will they try to do a last minute refund to me and others pushing them? possibly since it will be cheaper then when it goes critical, will they add on a NDA to the refund? most likely, will they try to lead people on their merry way as long as they can? most definately.

The question you have to ask yourself is how long will you allow them to lead you on?

Lol. I doubt his fanfriends can donate enough to cut a sprue of HIPS and produce enough for backers. And if they do, more fool them.

Sining wrote:
Lol. I doubt his fanfriends can donate enough to cut a sprue of HIPS and produce enough for backers. And if they do, more fool them.

I didn't say produce actualy product for distribution, but product to show something is being done.